Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[matrix]

well it's good to see that while I wasn't around for half a day some of the town has gone nuts and spewed out 5843658432848932pages of meaningless drivel..

Voting for the Central Scrutinizer because you don't have the musical vocabularly to appreciate the genius that is Frank Zappa, or the perspicacity to use google seems odd, though I guess it's o worse than throwing joke votes out there based on pulling names out of hat so meh.

I am really worried by the Mason role claim and subsequent rebuttal by the supposed other Mason (??)

That is hugely anti Town for reasons Zhaorx somehow managed to get out inbetween talking alot of nonsense, I would suggest we have no choice really today other than to lynch the apparently fake claimant. There is precious little other info to work with on day one barring further slipups and if they do in fact turn out to be a Mason and not Scum perhaps they'll learn the lesson for next time and it gives us one 90summink% cleared Townie to work with, curse the downside is that it narrows the playing field for the Scum to hunt power roles from within but hey.

[matrix]

Hitch, see again why Stef voted OIIW.

Good to see that Glossy Lips.

FoS M1KEMMIEMIEMKEMIKE

I don't like it when players don't give any answers and from the looks of that post, you have nothing.

oh noes the pointy fingers of suspicion.

I do hope you aren't planning on voting to lynch one of our, er, more "bluster" filled players just yet.

It's fairly straightforward to filter bluster from actual content, if these guys are Scum trying to overwhelm the town with content free posts I doubt they will succeed, I see a bundle of astute players in this game, who are going to be able to see through this kind of play.

Let them scream all they like, theywill soon enough give away their true motivations in due course and make all our lives easier

[matrix]

As for oEJo countering omg_im_innocent_wtf, I'm 99% sure it's now obvious that omg_im_innocent_wtf is scum, but I still want to scumhunt. I'm happy with voting OIIW if zhaorx can convince me he's not scum, but if we have a vigilante he or she needs to be the one to shoot OIIW in my opinion.

So that would give us the info that we do/do not have a vigilante(?)

I thnk it's better for the Town to come up with the two most viable scum candidates and then the vigilante if they even exists kills the other.

Course that won't work out well if the other wagon is te vig - or in fact if omg is actually a vig, but the probabilities of either of those scenarios taking place is slim.

If there is a vig in our midst they absolutely positively need to kill their most favoured scum candidate - that much is certain.

[matrix]

On the other hand, from you this is a gross wolf tell -- you should no

way

better than this.

Also, your tone is entirely unlike what I've seen in your last two games, and your approach to the first paragraph seems specifically designed to cater to the vagaries of this particular society. In other words: you're trying too hard. It ain't you. Or at least it ain't town you.

vote: matrix

Lets see - Scum atak knows tht I am good at scum hunting when I am on form- and will want to try and drum up a case against meout of nothing to get me out of the way.

Town atak is also good at scum hunting and isn't shy about jumping on things he perceives as scummy.

inconclusive. Please continue though - the type of case you build against me will go a long way to clearing you/incriminating you as approriate.

Oh and I do know better, and am hardly likely to weigh in with such an obviously tonally scummy OP in this thread, especially after being semi conspicously absent for a while if I am in fact Mafia.

That would be horrendously dumb, and while I make bone headed plays as much as the next person, I'd like to thinkthat I wouldn't be that stupid in my first ever post in this game.

[matrix]

Also, his double question mark strikes me as something he doesn't normally do, though I admit I haven't read for that.

Vote matrix with me; the rest of it we can leave alone.

Oooh pushing the town in to lynching me based on pithy tone reads because the style I play as vilager on a n other site is a little different to one post I made in this thread is a little thin.

Adding in the double question mark ??

even thinner.

Town atak uses more solid logic, Mafia atak on occasion spins cases from spindly threads of gossamer illusions to lead the Town astray.

Keep spinning.

[matrix]

Meh - I am more familiar with other players elsewhere, and feel more at home there, which accounts for the difference in "tone"

Read into that what you will, lynching me won't hurt the Town all that much so I'm not too upset over it.

and no I don't think that was me taking people to task for those kinds of arguments.

Going to go reread the whole thread and ponder a bit and try to hunt some scum, entertaining though this exchange is it's not all that productive.

[matrix]

here he thinks we have

no choice

but to lynch the countered claimant?

That does summarise my position yes. At least for the moment.

Barring anything emerging that leads us to believe another character is a much better lynch we should lynch omg for his bad claiming and anti Town activities.

For the most part tone reads are unreliable, if tone is the best we can do otherwise then when we have solid logical info that x player (in this case omg) fake claimed a harmless Town role then isn't it better to go with that solid info than semi solid other info.

What do you suggestwe do re: omg's Mason claim?

If he's Mafia he's not gettingNKed

If he's a Mason he's not getting NKed

If he's Vanilla he's not getting NKed

Can we hear some more on this subject from his "mason" buddy?

[matrix]

and for the record before I finally depart to go thread reading, it's not the claim of omg thats Scummy - it's the fact that it was quickly rebutted that I think is Scummy.

[matrix]

How could I possibly be doing this as a power role? oEJo would just come in and tell you all that I was lying.

Basically I am either exactly a mason with oEJo, or a wolf with him.

dug up from page 2 before this quality post gets buried.

[matrix]

I did not call you stupid under any form. Calling some1 a newbie is not an insult.

You inferred I was a newbie.

Someone else inferred I was stupid.

Ive played longer than both of you. I think you are both out of line.

aaaaaaaaand this quality post as well.

appeal to experience.

You imply inone post you are exactly this or exactly that, when if fact we can deduce very little from the claim other than the fact that one of you/your supposed partner is lying.

Townies have no need to lie.

[matrix]

keep spinning Atak.


just keep spinning, just keep spinning.

[matrix]

read deeper into that thread and you will note that I am very very anti fake claiming anything. One quote taken out of context = more to the gossamer illusion side of argument imo = Atak = Mafia than Town atak looking hard for solid reasons to vote to lynch someone.

In other news m1ke is likely a Mafia Goon.

Atak, let us set aside our squabble for the moment, whom else do you believe in this Town is acting Scummy?

Once I turn up Town tomorrow who will you be pushing for then?

[matrix]

Matrix made an argument that I

get the impression

he should know better than to make, and then went looking for backup when called on it;

he's mafia

.

you "get the impression" that I mad a post that I wouldn't make as a Townie. but then state that I am Mafia 100% - no room for error.

Sun

seems

slightly forced; he

may

be mafia. M1KE has adopted a style that

seem

s villagery. Zhaorx's disappearance after he started fighting with people

seems

fairly scummy. Stef is hypersensitive, but

I doubt

it's a mafia tell.

all your reads thus far are "maybe" - but I am the only read that you have stated unequivocably. Thats odd.

OMG made an odd, and now countered, claim, but we should give teh bad guys a chance to resolve it.

Why?

OMG is only getting NKed if he is a Townie AND if the Scum think there's a better than anyone else chance that he has a significant Town power role.

If he IS a significant power role thats not Scummy his original claim is just lol bad. Or at the very least very very risky, and an experienced player whom he claims to be is highly unlikely to make such a claim as a Power role, so all this pussyfooting around and hinting at but not stating that "we think he's the [insert preferred role here]" is pointless cos if you and I can see that it stands to reason that the Scum can as well, and they have several heads to think about this stuff at night, we have to play by ourselves bereft of such help.

He's a misguided Mason - he's Scum - or he's an FPS happy Townie.

OMG is firmly on my slate for lynching - as is m1ke, who jumped conveniently onto my forming wagon with barely a whisper of reasoning as to why in the kind of early jumping on sweet spot so it doesn't look to suspicious later after I turn up innocent when the wagons get analysed later.

we *really* need to hear more from EJ I think.

[matrix]

Matrix,

so you're saying a vanilla townie (like myself) can never make a vote on you in that spot?

??

???????

no I am saying that you rarely make a vote in that kind of manner as a Townie, and that the way you voted and the time you voted is an excellent way for a goon to slip onto a wagon relatively quietly.

[matrix]

omg.

Why are you in such a hurry to end todays game day?

What does the Town possibly gain from turbo lynching me. I am a little concerned that everyone and their dog seems to be following the pied piper and lumping their votes onto me, presumably based on the back of Ataks reasoning, yet without ever mentioning why they happen to think I am scum.

This Town is going to go down faster than a skydiving cinderblock that forgot it's parachute if you all play follow my leader and never bother thinking for yourselves, but I digress.

I am, leaning heavily towards Townie for Atakdog, I can't quite see him going this hard after me if he knew I was innocent as Scum, OMG looks more and more shifty with every pasing post he makes.

Were OMG to come up Scum I would think that that makes Atak even more likely innocent.

[matrix]

humans have individual personalities, which cause them to exhibit certain behaviors more or less consistently in similar situations. failure to use these data constitutes limitation of your analysis to an incomplete data set.

Humans are human. On different days, under different crcumstances, under different condtions, playing similar yet differently flavoured games, with different competitors they can and do exhibit variations from their general trend of underlying behaviour.

Not allowing for these kinds of changes and following your preset - person a did this here so they will almost always do that in this spot is just incorrect.

Evaluating people based on a limited sample and not taking into account other variables which will complicate things will lead your analysis astray.

[matrix]

Have I wandered in to a newbie game by accident?

Why is Matrix not dead yet?

Anyone with working eyes and a basic knowledge of the english language knows matrix is scum already.

You are going to look

outstandingly

wrong for this comment when my vanilla role is revealed, I shall take some small crumb of solace for being mislynched d1 *again* when that happens

Please answer my question.

What does the town gain if they turbo lynch me today?

Why are you in such a hurry to kill me already?

I'd quite like some time to interact with some of the quieter Townspeople here before my seemingly inevitable mislynch.

[matrix]

Is no-one else wondering why matrix has declined to adress me once yet itt?

I don't know how advanced matrix's thinking as mafia is, but it just seems strange to me, something I would do as mafia to try and draw a mislynch against me once his posts are analysed.

I am nowhere near that advanced as a Mafia player - I get randed villager every game I play it seems.

I am not purposely ignoring you, earlier your posts read to me as though you were simply agreeing with Atak, I adressed some of his concerns and figured as you were both arguing the same side that I had also addressed yours.

Don't panic, I am not trying to draw a mislynch from you, you will see why after I'm dead.

[matrix]

Well it means we get a and provide less information for scum to use. I think thats generally a good thing.

Hypothesise with me for just a moment will you.

Lets say that I am vanilla innocent - and I get mislynched today in double quick time. In this case what does the Town gain.

The only thing I know in this game is my own role. Given that I know you'd be turboing an innocent I find it hard to see how we gain from that.

Exactly

why

do you state I am "guaranteed scum"??

I really would like to know.

[matrix]

ok does this post read as if cougar

knows

matrix is scum allready?

no.

but then I have the advantage of knowing that that is unpossible.

[matrix]

I'd quite like some time to interact with some of the quieter Townspeople here before my seemingly inevitable mislynch.

I don't think you're even in the lead.

I make it me 6 zhaorx 3 , and uncomfortably close to getting early majoritied.

[matrix]

You arent anything but scum ever so there is a zero chance of a mislynch. Fact.

The rest of the post becomes pretty irrelevant.

Awesome.

You are closed minded as well as wrong.

You are actively trying to get lynched it looks like. Also the only way you would know for a FACT if I was Mafia is if you had peeked me, or if you were also Mafia. You are lying through your omg_im_innocent_teeth.

OK lets ask the same question in a different way.

d1 you are getting a ton of heat and look like being lynched soon. You know you are innocent, what's your play?

Another player who lied about their role in one of their first posts of the game seems 100% unshakeably convinced that you are scum, but won't elaborate on why and continues to post condescending (that means to talk down to) remarks about you. whats your play?

[matrix]

May I ask why you claimed vanilla at this stage of the game?

Claiming vanilla makes sense regardless of my role (if any) within the Town.

Should I escape being lynched it doesn't narrow the field for the Mafia as it doesn't really offer them further info, I am not about to claim a power role d1 and give the scum an easy NK decision even if I were such a role.

[matrix]

Its because I know you arent as dumb/bad as certain other players in this game that I know you are a wofl for making such a silly argument and voting me.

I don't recall voting for anybody?

Eskimo??

I have advocated lynching you but am yet to cast a vote.

[matrix]

I beg to differ. If you really are vanilla, then yes it does narrow the field for the Mafia as there's one less person that has a potential power role.

Unless you're either scum or trying Kokusho's gambit, you should claim truthfully.

I refer to myself as vanilla in every game I ever play.

For my "claim" such as it is to narrow down the potential Nightkill candidates the scum have to first completely believe me and I am not sure that would ever happen.

[matrix]

atakdogs case against matrix hinges on him being a certain caliber of player that is incapable of making a mistake like he did. After more thought, ive seen matrix do some boneheaded stuff (no offense)

none taken.

I am actually agreeing with m1ke - hmmmmm.

I appreciate the compliments and all that - but my game isn't *that* good.

I would also like to point out that while a bunch of us are playing here who normally play elsewhere, all of us take the game seriously, despite our differing styles, and certainly noone would discuss game specifics other than to say "we are playing a game over here, watch and enjoy"

Cheating, or deliberately attempting to ruin other peoples fun, would just be entirely wrong on every level.

[matrix]

one wonders if some of the people jumping onto my case are not Scum themselves looking for an easy out d1.

I still have reservations about omg, there be a bunch of players who have yet to post though, it is definitely much harder to guage the under the radar types when game days take a considerable time to play out.

[matrix]

Fonz:

You are voting me because I "claimed vanilla" and because of my "appeal to emotion"

couple of things.

i) I refer to my role in every game I ever play anwhere as "vanilla" regardless of what my actual role is. Usually I am vanilla (just like everyone else is there are more Townies than any other role in any game) but I don't see why this is anti-town. I've not actually claimed anything.

ii) omg claimed a Town role in clear and unambiguous language, made odd appeals here and there yet you still prefer to lynch me over omg?


Players a and b have both exhibited behavior x - but I know a is nuts, so I'll vote b cos he must be scummy... Is that a fair summation?

I think we are more likely to find scum d1 barring any major slipups from players who are both active in the thread, and "following the herd" and voting for whomever the present fad seems to be for, without sticking their necks out and/or providing any useful reasons for why their vote hapens to be where it is. jmo.

vote: The Central Scrutinizer

[matrix]

I'm not sure what effect if any the timed nature of nearly all our games (meaning most lynches do not go to majority) has.

Here's my 2c.

I am a poker player (like nearly all the posters @ 2p2) and the reason I started playing Werewolf there was to help sharpen my people reading skills.

I view this game as trying to get inside peoples heads - work out what their motivations are for posting theposts they make and thus discern what their roles are. It seems to me from the MS games I've read and the newbie game I played a while back that the pace (or lack of pace) here contributes greatly to the kind of slow ploddng careful thought out, logical deduction kind of gameplay.

The WW games on 2p2 have deadlines, you can put a lot more pressure onto people when the clock is ticking and people under pressure are more prone to make mistakes in things they post, the games their have evolved more towards "tone" and "feel" and less towards deduction and seem to have gone the other way here, thought hats not to say that all these things aren't important to all well rounded players of Mafia, I do think that it's partly because of time constraints. A Mafioso can spend plenty of time composing posts here to eliminate unwanted bias, under a clock - less so. When the lynch comes via a deadline you tend to get a bunch of active players reading/posting with an hour to go. Thats rarely going to happen in this kind of setup.

[matrix]

oh my god i suck?

No eyed ear.

You do sound more scummy to me than everyone else in this town at the moment though, so I thought I'd make a vote.

[matrix]

Right now I am very confident Hewitt is Town

fairly confident: Atak is Town and Scott is Town.

I am getting scummy vibes from m1ke and CS, more so than I was earlier with CS's rapid one line response to my vote.

Everyone else is in the meh column.

[matrix]

Your train of logic seems"all over the place" to me...

Fonz:

You are voting me because I "claimed vanilla" and because of my "appeal to emotion"

couple of things.

i) I refer to my role in every game I ever play anwhere as "vanilla" regardless of what my actual role is. Usually I am vanilla (just like everyone else is there are more Townies than any other role in any game) but I don't see why this is anti-town.

I've not actually claimed anything.

Yes you have. Saying 'I am vanilla' is absolutely, 100% a claim of a vanilla townie role. How else could it possibly be read?

No - if you read the posts I have made thus far in this game you will actually see that I have referred to my role as "vanilla", I've never actually stated "I am vanilla", we could argue semantics all night tho.

ii) omg claimed a Town role in clear and unambiguous language, made odd appeals here and there yet you still prefer to lynch me over omg?

OMG's claim was a) perfectly in-character with his prior town play and b) utterly WIFOM, so is therefore no tell of any kind in either direction.

because you lack any prior experience with my play where I refer to my role s vanilla in just about every game I am involved in, you are for lynching me because my "claim" comes from your reliable "book of scum tells".

My claim, should you choose to read it as one gives you approximately the same amount of information than omg's claim does.

Lazy. Very very Lazy.

So

Nope. There is more possible advantage to scum from claiming vanilla than claiming mason, since it isn't going to be disproven as easily.

Que??

You prove or dsprove the accuracy of my claim by lynching me. You prove or disprove the accuracy of omgs claim by lynching him. Both claims are as hard/easy to disprove as the other.

vote: The Central Scrutinizer

TCS is a truly awful vote choice.

and why might that be?

Probably because pretty much any competent player has a consistent 'tone' and 'feel.' Or such an inconsistent one that you can't read anything into it.

I don't believe we mean the same thing when we say "tone"

Random bandwagoning is not actually scummy, but newbs and opportunistic scum often make out that it is, therefore it is an excellent tool.

that sounds good but is ultimately meaningless. Noobs give themselves away as noobs reliably via other means, Random bandwagonning gives scum easy places to hide their votes without putting up reasons for those votes, it can lead the town astray if they misinterperet such a random choice as a breadcrumb if the person placing the Random vote got NKed.

It would be an excellent tool if only noobs/scum made out that it was scummy, thats a large assumption to make I think, that ONLY opportunistic scum and noobs will make those posts.

You are using your "book of scum tells" against players who have evolved different means to acheive the same ends as players who play exclusively at MS. In this scenario such a book is useless and ought to be thrown away. Making long posts that on the surface look content filled, but are actually not on closer inspection is a reliable scum indicator for me, ought I to throw that read out of the window as well?

[matrix]

Matrix's heat comes from a player dependant read. or rather a type of player.

Any 2p2er wanting to vote OMG would be suspicious,

For the record I didn't have the faintest dea who omg was before I started gunning for him, I thought, somewhat erroneously,that he was a MS regular and not a 2p2 reg.

Make of that what you will.

[matrix]

matrix, iirc, you detest my fake seer posts. i find it odd that you have put me in your village category. discuss

I am anti players fake seer claiming, or fake cop claiming as it would be here.

The game where you got me lynched d1 as the seer I did somewhat overreact afterwards I Will admit, IIRC that was the 2nd game I had ever played.

I am against fake seer claiming a la Z in the recent Toon game.

For reasons articulated rather well by WellNamed earlier in this thread I have come around these days to actualy thinking your fake peeks posts have a lot of merit, making things very clear as they do, I am not convinced enough by them to use them myself, but Iwouldn't say I detest them.

Javelin.

[matrix]

im voting for you because i suspect youre using

LAL

as cover for an easy lynch which if turns out to be a mislynch, you can claim "lynch all liars" and walk away.

This is why my vote is now on TCS. I firmly believe that there a number of Mafia Goons presently voting for omg (regardless of omg's actual role here) as it's the easy street route.

Earlier in this day I was that easy vote. I know dam well why atak/Hitch voted for me, I give them both Townie points for making their reasons plain and clear (Atak gets a few less Tpoints - cos he is good enough to do something like that as either role) Fonz is voting me for some lazy reason he hasn't really explained yet very well, despite being "verbose"

The reaction thus far from TCS (note how quick it was and how little else he has posted) hasn't convinced me that he is a Townie yet.

[matrix]

There is a literal morass of self-aggrandizing newbies in this game. It gives me a headache

There's a swamp in our town??

The newbie games are in a different forum, as far as I can see there are no newbies here, posters wth low post counts yes, but we all know how to play.

Congrats on posting possibly the most scummiest sounding post yet seen in this thread though.

Any particular reason why we shouldn't lynch you?

Why are you so keen to get the hammers out?

[matrix]

This sounds more like some sort of Buddhist koan than an actual recounting of things that happened.

translation of TCS thus far this game:

lurk lurk - post some fluff - lurk lurk - vote for an easy wagon - lurk lurk - post more fluff.

Still very happy with my vote.


Scott:

I think I understand your POV here, but for the good of everyone playing, can you stop with the frequent oh so not very subtle digs at MS please.

thanks.

[matrix]

Grr, so much idiocy, so little time to respond.

Guys, you have to take into account that the average large game on mafiascum is usually barely getting out of random voting by this point. The logic you're using to call TCS a lurker is akin to calling someone a slow reader for taking three months to get through War and Peace, because you can read 'Spot Gets His Ball Back' in five minutes.

I am not so much calling TCS a lurker, more a low content poster.

Seriously I get the fact that the games play differently here, and people have lives and stuff.

He very quickly replied to my vote for him, but posted a one line comment.
If he just happened to load up the page at that time and had no time to post much else then whatever - the timing of that and subsequent "your scum hunting skills are breathtaking" post is what make me think he is the most likely scum player here right now. NOT the fact that he is "lurking", it's the content of what he has posted as well as the timing of those posts.

To insinuate that my reading comprehension is about on the level of a kids picture book is nice, and then to make a post saying that I am voting him for lurking - when I'm not is ironic, don'tcha think?

Well Named seems like a Townie so far.

[matrix]

After some time contemplating this I think that I should vote with my gut here and go with a vote for...................

vote: matrix

He IMHO is about as close to a mafia as we're likely to find among the alternatives

if by close, you mean very very far away - then congratulations!

I think that Mafia moves a little better if there is some kind of deadline - it seems everyone s sitting around waiting for someone to post an "OMG SCUMTELL" before anything is going to happen.

I am going to follow Sun for a while and see how that turns out.

vote: Hitch

[matrix]

For the record my true #1 suspect is TCS - I would be very happy with a TCS lynch and will likely switch back to him if it looks like he might get lynched, unless he starts posting lots of Townie type stuff, then I guess I'll need to look elsehere.

I am basically moving my vote around to see what it stirs up if anything.

[matrix]

And then suddenly matrix is following sun for

no apprant reason

, while sun is not even voting for hitch...

Fos: Sun Tzu + Matrix

I am basically moving my vote around to see what it stirs up if anything.

Reading comprehension not one of your strong suits?

[matrix]

am I the only person here who really has no clue what OMG was trying with regard to his early role claim??

Does oEJo's response tell us much about oEJo ? - short sharp vehement denial followed by voting to lynch the liar.

Seems the easy fashionable trend to follow now is to claim apathy and post very little.

hmmmmm.

I'm less happy with my Hitch vote - I could well vote for zhaorx at this point or m1ke.

Still not liking the majority of TCS's posts who remains my #1 suspect

vote: The Central Scrutinzer

noted that his posting style is consistant with previous games and not neccesarily indicative of scummyness.

Not sure what to make of Hitch being somewhat happy that he is on the slate. Seems Townie on the face of it.

[matrix]

oh and FTR - having read the fonz long post I was almost convinced to not vote TCS - a couple of later posts Sun switching vote for example cemented that.

And then we got 3 rapid fire posts from TCS that said nothing apart from noting that we got info from OMG getting modkilled, which is very obvious and strkes me as something a Mafioso would post to try and look helpful, without actually being helpful.

TCS goes back to the top of my pile.


[as an aside I do find it amusing that OMG got modkilled for using a certain word, when various other players in this game have used other profanities without recourse, it's odd how some words these days have become accepted, yet others have not, when not all that long ago any such expletives were all equally prohibited]

[matrix]

Scott,

what are your thoughts on OMG's early role claim and subsequent short sharp rebuttal by oEJo now that we know OMG's vanilla role?

I am still trying to work out possible reasons for his play - the only one I can think of so far is that OMG knows he is vanilla and offers a opportunity to oEJo to co claim a Town role, were oEJo to accept his offer it would be more likely that oEJo was Scum.

Though if oEJo has any kind of clue he will quickly deny the claim regardless of role, which makes the ploy kind of worthless ??

Then again this is Eskimo we are talking about...

[matrix]

a) TOWN SHOULD (basically) NEVER LIE ABOUT THEIR ROLES, and b) Claiming mason DOES make you more likely to get NKed. Hugely so.

why??

If you are actually a cop, you should never claim town. That's because if you subsequently claim cop, no-one will believe you, and infact they will lynch you for lying about your role.

So how would a Cop/Doctor w/e go about looking like a Townie to avoid drawing attention to themselves and thus not get NKed?

Having Vanillas get NKed by the Scum is *very* good for the Town, for hopefully obvious reasons.

Yes we should hunt down peoples logical inconsistencies and stuff , but to lynch a player who later claims cop after previously claiming "Vanilla" strikes me as head bogglingly bad, you'd surely just lynch a n other candidate and lynch the potential fake the following day if they haven't been whacked during the night

If your gut has given you a read on Wall-E, we'll see how good that is. I'll continue to look for logical inconsistencies and blendishness.

If you haven't already I'd recommend reading a book called "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell.

I can see what people are driving at with wanting to lynch Wall-E - I get the feeling though Wall-E would be better lynched on a later game day and not on day 1. If he continues to post this much he will slipup somewhereand spew us some innocents, or further incriminate himself should he be Scum, and looks like a useful Scum hunter should he be a Townie.

[matrix]

I don't want to drag this out much further, so this will be the last post from me this game on this subject, I did want to answer a couple of points briefly

Masons are confirmed innocents. They can't be lynched.

no. Noone is confirmed as anything with a 100% confidence interval until they are dead.

A high risk ploy might be for the Mafia in a game where there is a chance of Masons to have two goons claim to be mason buddies. If there is no competing claim how will the town know? If the other power roles that the Scum are hunting for do not die they are not about to waste valuable NK's taking out confirmed innocents when a live Cop could potentially blow the entire game for them.

We can say that it's very probable that x and y are Masons - but it's not confirmed 100% until their role is revealed upon death by the moderator.

As for why town should never lie... basically, we find it best for town players not to reveal ANY information about their role. Then, when a player claims, you are able to assume they are either truthful, or scum. If a player is allowed to change his claim, that benefits scum. They can claim townie early, then claim doc when they realise there isn't a real one.

I can see how this might benefit the Town actually given how Rand() effects the gameshere. Most WW I Play you are 1 of three roles, here you can be one of several and noone but the mod knows what roles even exist.

If it were common for cops and docs to claim vanilla, then the claim would be worthless. It wouldn't protect from NKs at all. You avoid being nightkilled by playing normally, just like you would if you were a townie. If you do anything different, that's a giveaway.

agreed. Tho "playing normally" for me involves refering to myself as vanilla - on 2p2 people claim vanilla all the time so the "claim" isn't really regarded as one is accepted as playing normally so it blends in. Tho several players in this game have given slightly more subtle references as to their plain Town role, some of which Scott highlighted as soft claims, which seems to be playing normally here. I guess it all depends on where the arbitrary line is drawn

The idea of this game is that scum are trying to mislead the town. If scum are the only ones deliberately misleading people, it's easier to catch them doing it. Therefore, town should (with very few, very specific exceptions) always be truthful.

Don't quite agree. The Power roles are trying to mislead the scum (particularly the Cop) and at one and the same time impart useful information to the Town in the event of their untimely death. The Townies are trying to mislead the Scum into making them think they are Power roles so that they get NKed and "take one for the team" - The game is about deception and manipulation in part for all players not just the Mafia.

If you're playing in a less evolved meta, one where people in general either haven't figured this out, or haven't succeeded in implementing it, then it can be fairly common to fake claim townie.

Subtle dig at other sites noted

The meta here has evolved to suit the game conditions as Rand() plays a much bigger part - I wouldn't say it was better just different.

Thanks for the links - we can take up this discussion after the game or in a more suitable thread somewhere else if you like.

[matrix]

Wall-E.

double ewe Tea eff????

Fonz is an even worse lynch today than you are. For much the same reasons.

[matrix]

Wall-E.

double ewe Tea eff????

Fonz is an even worse lynch today than you are. For much the same reasons.

Why do you think I am a bad choice for lynch today?

I can see what people are driving at with wanting to lynch Wall-E - I get the feeling though Wall-E would be better lynched on a later game day and not on day 1. If he continues to post this much he will slipup somewhereand spew us some innocents, or further incriminate himself should he be Scum, and looks like a useful Scum hunter should he be a Townie.

[matrix]

well back to the drawingboard on whos my best lynch candidate I guess.

TCS why would you have chosen Fonz for protection n0 had you been able to?

unvote: The Central Scrutinizer

[matrix]

Do #1012–#1014 make an ounce of sense to anybody? They look a lot like fluff posts to me.

lyrics to "Stayin' Alive" by the BeeGees unless I am very much mistaken.

[matrix]

this game is making my head hurt.

Now I am sure there is some obvious code in TCS' recent posts that I am too dumb to spot.

I am also not liking how quiet the thread has got recently - we have a week to deadline and I'm still not comfortable with a Wall-E lynch for reasons I outlined earlier.

TCS:

Why would a Goon want to bus Wall-E at this point? Simply because he is the leading wagon and there seem to be no other viable alternates? Setting up a n other wagon would arouse more suspicion than jumping onto Wall-E's I spose.

I do hope things start getting a little clearer d2 and the post count jumps up from where it has sunk to now. Some happy medium between the first flurry of posts and recent Dead Air has to be good.

Do MS's use some kind of variant of DADV? (Dead Air Dead Villager) - whenever the thread goes oh so quiet and very little is posted nearing the end of a day it's highly likely that the lead wagon is a villager. I suppose it would be DADT here if at all.

[matrix]

I probably should have made my post clearer, but the only question I meant to direct at TCS specifically was:

Why would a Goon want to bus Wall-E at this point?

tho while I'm here he also missed:

TCS why would you have chosen Fonz for protection n0 had you been able to?

from an earlier post...

So we have TCS claiming two roles, this after many and various posts from Fonz outlining how on MS should a player claim 2 seperate roles in the same game its a reliable scumtell. Both Wall-E and TCS avoiding questions.

Then there is Siesta and Stranger who are both pressuring TCS for an answer - but not so much pressure for Wall-E. They are both voting Wall-E, but don't feel the same need to press Wall-E for answers it seems...

curiouser and curiouser.

[matrix]

It sounds great to me. But what do I know?

what sounds great?

[matrix]

Sorry for the double post, thought I'd stopped when I finished responding to Scott, then realised there was more:

1. his vote for zazier
How does my random vote prove I have not read the thread? I've already said once that I even had a small reason for the vote. Can you specify?

As stated, zazier wasn’t in the game when you voted. That’s absolute proof. Anything else would be gravy.

And I have addressed this. There's nothing more to say about it. During my read, Zazie struck me as scummy. I needed a random vote, so I voted Zazie. Fair?

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

Alarm bells!

Was your vote because Zazie struck you as scummy, or was it random?

The two are not compatible.

Wall-E - question highlighted in

bold red

above (from #954)

[matrix]

Hitch:

Que???

I was layng out my train of thought, and asked Scotts opinion on the OMG claim and what might have motivated OMG to fake. I spent about the same amount of time IIRC pondering oEJo's mtivaton in thread as well.

Figuring out why OMG faked might shed some light on oEJo - I was kind of hoping he'd weigh in with some comment on it - but he remains the silent type, meh.

Also you just went from "matrix has sounded more and more town as the thread has gone on...." to "zomg matrix is obvscum from this later day series of posts"

which is it?

[matrix]

Just to recap on the setup:

ROLES

This is an open set up, so all the roles that could potentially exist can be found below.

Setup at a glance: 4 Mafia, 1 SK, 0-2 SCops, 0-2 Doctors, 0-1 Vig, 0/2 Masons, 8-15 Townies

Presence Randomization: 33% chance of presence for 0, 1, or 2 cops, same for doctors, 50% for vig, 50% for mason pair, and Vanilla Townies fills in whatever number is left for a total of 20 players, including 4 mafia and 1 SK.

There is one SK. We could potentially still have 1 vig 1 Cop 2 Docs and a pair of Masons in addition to the 4 Scum and the Townies?

We mislynched a good Townie ( I hate Wall-E commiting suicide but hey)
We lost both a good player Vanilla (atak) and a Good player who happened to be a Cop (Fonz) and the

only thing

that we can dredge from yesterday with much reliability is that TCS is more likely a Townie. (Fonz' defense of him d1 on somewhat odd reasoning points to him having been ionvestigated n0 some reasonable % of the time)

Oh and either POGgers are in charge of the Den and made the Atak Kill and an MSer is the SK and killed Fonz - or vice versa.

If all of the Oh so quiet players from day one could start actually contributing from this point onwards that would be somewhat helpful.

Without going through and recapping all of day 1 yet I suspect my first impressions will be to want to lynch m1ke/zhaorx/Hitch today in that order.

Also if a player awaiting replacement is a power role and does not use their available night action, is that action rand()ed by the mod - or just wasted?

[matrix]

because I find him the most scummy, this is not his normal game and I think the comments he posted late on in d1 are particularly dodgy.

Zhaorx is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too quiet by his standards and promised to deliver more content d2 so he gets to be my #2 suspect.

Hitch I haven't played with much, but both Atak (who is good) and Fonz (who I assume is good) were suspicious of Hitch, and both of those are now dead. I am leaning innocent on Hitch - innocent enough for me to want to lynch m1ke/zhaorx before him at this point.

[matrix]

People are Xenophobic, it's part of human nature, which is in turn hammered in to people via the medium of banal television, but I digress...

It's "standard" strategy whether one is a Mafioso or a SK to kill off the better players remaining in the game n1.

POGgers would be well aware of Atak's credentials - likewise MSers for Fonz. If Fonz was a Mafia hit - they just got plain old dumb lucky.

As far as Atak being dead over other players - pass.

Why is half of this town, some of whom were lamenting the slowness of the game - who hinted day one that they would be more participatory day 2 - still keeping schtum????

[matrix]

Oh no you don't.

You chose not to pass when you drew conclusions about the possible makeup of the sk/mafia team.

You concluded that 2p2ers would more likely kill atak because he is known as a strong player. imo the kills indicate almost the oppisite. Namely that if the poggers were making a strong player kill atak would still be alive.

meh.

Atak is a strong player - it's 6 of one half a dozen of the other as to whomever killed Atak thought he was a stronger player than a n other (Scott for example) thats *IF* Atak was a stong player kill - I think it's likely it was - you think it's likely it wasn't.

We are at an impasse either way cos whatever conclusions you draw from the night kills being possible Cop hunts they are reversed half the time cos we have no idea who killed who, it's yet possible that the vig shot last night as well if there even is one and their kill was blocked by a possible Doc (or the Dens kill/SK kill was the one that got blocked)

We are in a world of darkness. The two most vocal MS regs have shuffled off this mortal coil, and none of the remaining MSers seem willing or able to put together several posts of analysis of yesterday.

I got the impression from my back and forth with Fonz yesterday that TCS was his investigation.

I will go reread d1 in a day or so and look more carefully at his posts, since we ought to be able to discern a few possible investigations that he might have conducted that would narrow the choices a little for today.

[matrix]

Yay a website that crashes and burns frequently...

are games here normally this slow?

[matrix]

well at least we lost the SK.....

and we have one spare lynch so we are not totally dead.

There has to be a bunch of useful stuff in Suns d1 posts we can find, and we probably need to go with the assumption now that TCS is cleared.

So I will be lynching from:

Stranger
Hitch
Hewitt
Siesta
Scott
Norseman
Morphing

and from those right now without rereading I am leaning towards lynching Stranger.

[matrix]

Matrix, why are you clearing TCS?

Because of Fonz.

Several times d1 Fonz remarked that TCS was an awful lynch choice. Hence the possibility that he was investigated n0.

Pretty flimsy - but we don't exactly have a lot to go on.

[matrix]

hi day 3.

Various offline events have kept me away from playing any kind of WW anywhwere, though I am back now and have more time.

Seems like I didn't miss much

Lets hope Wall-E can be as actve as he was before he got killed last time and we can get something resembling a game happening here.

Tho Wall-E - why are you voting for dead people?

[matrix]

SO we are one away from losing the game.

THere are 8 (eight) players remaining and in the time since I posted last there have been 6 posts by 3 players ???

I really dislke Hewitts post - it seems that Hitch and Wall-E are at least attempting to scum hunt.

I will almost certainly be voting for Hewitt I think today.

Hewitt - why shouldn't I vote for you?

whom do you suspect (and why) ?

[matrix]

Burden of proof shifting successful!

I like it.

Is that good or bad? I am just trying to turn up a little heat and et some repsonses out of people.

Playing hte "waiting game" is sosososososo bad as a Townie imo.

I am basically going with the theory that fonz peeked TCS before he got killed. See my interactions with Fonz d1 where he on more than one occasion hinted that TCS was an awful lynch.

I relaly don't like his two recent posts here, but I have to narrow the field of options down somehow.

Hewitts recent reply to my Q sounds nooby more than anything else, hard to tell if he's nervous because he's scum ad doen't want to blow the game when they are [ ... ] this close to winning, or because he is totally lost with no info.

Lets ask some more questions, perchance we can still pull this out of the fire.

Siesta/Morphing addict - whom are your reads and leads thus far and what direction do you think you will be voting in?

[matrix]

I'm willing to join you in lynching TCS.

What makes TCS a good lynch choice in your opinion?

[matrix]

I think this game has been a joke from start to finish and I've had great difficulty beginning to care.

I signed up at MS some time ago - as was the rules at the time I then proceeded to play a newbie game, I am not a newb to WW/Mafia but thems the rules.

I hated it - IIRC Igot lynched d2 for being too aggressive, the days took an interminable amount of time and where I am used to days lasting 24 hours and having upwards of 1k posts PER DAY it was a culture shock.

Fastforward to a month or so ago and a thread gets posted proposing that a bunch of POG players go play at MS to "show the MS regs a thing or two" - I understood this to mean that we would play a game here just amongst ourselves that would quickly rocket along with lots of content. Turned out that the way the queue thing works here we ended up playing in a game with many MS players, clearly almost none of whom knew what was happening.

The guy that started these boards had to come itt and point out that you had been invaded!

Several MS players took great offense at suddenly being caught in a game they didn't want to play and weren't expecting.

So the whole thing gets paused while each player confirms whether or not they still want to be a part of it or not.

Some guys left - and all the best to them - some people stayed, some more replaceents subbed in.

This is what gets e TCS about your quote above - IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT PLAYING THIS GAME WHY THE HELL DID YOU AGREE TO KEEP PLAYING IT?????

(see also Stranger Coug)

So the game then evolved into an us v them slang fest, a bunch of players fro both sides then got modkilled for inactivity.

Finally I thought the game wll start moving.

nope - day 2 grinds to a half with a NO LYNCH - approximately the worst possible result for the Town.

And NOW TCS you make a lengthy post in the game thread starting out with "this game is a joke and I don't care about it"

Your timing sucks imo.

I am of the opinion that players like Hewitt who are posting very little, but still maintaining some kind of presence itt are likely scum. All the Mafia have to do here is coast to victory and say as little as possible.

frankly, I just can't give a shit about a game that was a joke and is now effectively an auto-scum win

Thats Towny I think. The hopelessness theme isn't one that a Mafioso would have.

If the thread picks up and people start contributing again I will make an effort and go through and find the posts from Fonz that I think cleared TCS in the first place, maybe I am wrong, but I doubt I will end up voting to lynch TCS, Hewitt is still my #1 choice.

[matrix]

Siesta/Morphing addict - whom are your reads and leads thus far and what direction do you think you will be voting in?

Too many people lurking ITT.

[matrix]

You shouldn't vote for me cause I'm town.
...

I've been playing a waiting game so far and hoping somebody fucks up so we don't lose.

Sorry - but I don't believe you.

playing a waiting game is what has turned this game into a giant clusterfuck imo and I for one really wish this was over.

vote: Scott Howard

I'd prefer to lynch Hewitt - but I am going to go with the forming bandwagon in the hopes this game might end soon.

[matrix]

Yay so this dabcle will continue to lumber on with you voting for me TC leaving without voting for anyone but throwing suspicions every which way.

Barely anyone's posting - so in another couple of weeks a bunch more people will get modkilled.

I actually think there is a decent chance SH is a Goon.

Hewiit - I have made an outline of a case for voting you, noone in the thread has expressed an interest in voting you, or asked you any questions even.

Ergo a bandwagon on you is a non starter - at least for today.

however I have a suggestion.

MOD

- please can we put this game out of it's misery.

I don't have time or inclination to spend in a game where next to noone is even playing anymore.

I think it would just be the best thing to finish it.

Having said that I will not quit - or seek replacement - and if enough people in the game start posting and making some kind of contribution then perhaps we should carry on.

It's next to imposible for us to win at this point - and it seems like most of the Mafia have just decided to not post anymore.

The whole point of a game, any game, is that it is fun and chalenging to play.

While this is certainly challenging - it is so for all the wrong reasons, I am certainly not finding it to be any fun. The sooner this is over the better I think.