Eminence in Shadow: Season 1 [Game Over]

[Big Chungus Gaming]

regardless if my gamma playing "deepwolf" read is wrong and it is just cakez im only 3/4 if it is STD, big sadge.

how is Gamma playing like a deep wolf?

the idea was pushing "correct" reads for cred while encouraging tvt fighting

[T3]

Sakura feels the most naturally town to me with her questions/playstyle, I really like this,

Either way, i'm still in my belief that unless you're really skilled at lying your analysis as town is gonna be a lot better than your analysis as scum. I have seen nothing to disprove this.

I want to focus in on who is and isn't lying/who has the greatest potential to lie.

kyouko's 58214028121 is insanely specific, concluding T3 was informed of exactly what to say to Kyouko in a PT. I feel it's a truth nuke in Kyouko's pov so she's town.

Alisae's 308 + 310 feels straight up, she's speaking her truth with severe distrust of T3 and seeing most active players as town. The read list implies struggle in seeing who scum is.

Klick opens with 395, town reading me, explaining why in 439 and 440. When town Klick identified me as town in Monkey Business, identified me as scum in Don't Fall Into The Volcano. If the pattern continues Klick is town identifying me as town. My concern is Klick rolling scum, knowing I am town, using it as a weapon, and reverse-engineering reasoning why I am town. Klick's read on me feels organic tho by contrasting my play. Klick saying T3's engagement/interest is +town feels genuine.

T3 is engaged in multiple fronts, defending Sakura against Luka in 158 , going into Sakura's reasoning in 262, slightly scum reading me in 365, analyzing my IS0 in depth in 419 when questioning Klick's townread of me, engaging and defending against Kyouko in 557. T3's depth of logical thought feels town initially, I thought he was town in the beginning with defending Sakura against Luka. My fear is T3 using this precise logic if scum as a weapon to explain away anything, disguising himself as town. Alisae's mistrust and Kyouko's theory that T3 intentionally mentioned Klick's language to get info out of her.

I find this interesting,

Would Cakez really have such poor analysis as scum???

Don't you have it backwards? I imagine people have better analysis as town than as scum in general, since as scum they have to lie while as town they are genuinely analyzing things.

I'd imagine that there would be a voice in his head telling him "hey, you really shouldn't post this, you should try a little harder to make better analysis" if he was scum.

T3 makes excellent analysis, is this T3's own voice speaking to him as scum? Idk if he would make this type of scum slip.

Gamma- I have a hard time reading, pretty neutral. Maybe slight scum lean based on pure vibes + potential scum equity with T3 ? I am liking this analysis,

The answer would be that they're not intentionally doing anything

I think an issue I do see with your mindset is that you seem to be assuming scum have a broader-scope plan. I think that’s probably rarer than you think it is, yes scum generally try to coordinate but I think in the majority of scenarios scum will often just take their own approach

I like her logic, sadly this is right no matter your alignment so it's nai.

VOTE: Luka
In post 159, Luka wrote:
Sakura / Whem / Pooky / T3 as town
VOTE: Gamma
I feel like most of these slots stated as town were sorted far too quickly based on Luka’s prior posts, I’m leaning on most if not all those slots being TMIed town

I want to explore this, Luka is semi likely to be scum if this logic holds up
Note: I meant to post this analysis b4 so it focuses in on the 1st half

Why does any of this make me scum? You’re saying that I am scum who might be using my precise logic to explain away everything but you don’t explain why I am not just town who has precise logic. And what do you mean by “I have the greatest potential to lie”?

[Alisae]

ssbm_Kyouko
Sakura Hana
Whemestar
Alisae
KawaiiKame
Luka
Pookythemagicalbear
T3

Klick
Dunnstral
jjh927
SirCakez

Gamma Emerald
Cephrir
Penguinpower
Save the Dragons


hilariously I think this is the middle tier I had in the list I made earlier lmao

Cephrir is town

[T3]

regardless if my gamma playing "deepwolf" read is wrong and it is just cakez im only 3/4 if it is STD, big sadge.

how is Gamma playing like a deep wolf?

the idea was pushing "correct" reads for cred while encouraging tvt fighting

Idk if scum!Gamma would try to deepwolf after she got early scumreads.

[T3]

T3 did you mean 499 or a different post?

495 I think

[T3]

{KawaiiKame, Sakura Hana, T3}
{Cephrir, Cakez, Alisae, ssbm_Kyouko}
{Luka, WhemeStar, Dunnstral}
{STD, Gamma, Penguin, Pooky, Chungus, jjh}

Is a rough estimate of my current reads

Klick Is also scum bad read list

To be honest I kind of like that Wheme's initial thought upon reading this is something along the lines of 'Klick's scum and trying to set me up to die after the bottom row'
It feels like a thought that Wheme would be much more likely to have as town

How experienced are you with Wheme? I’d also be inclined to agree with you but I’ve only played with him 3-ish times.

[KawaiiKame]

Interesting that you think Kyouko comes off more believable in the Kyouko/T3 interactions

Kyouko's 582 is specific, but comes out at a later point in conversation where the layers have built up and scum could reach for a conclusion like that. The point itself doesn't hold up to a very basic level of scrutiny either. The idea that someone would specifically give T3 extra advice about Kyouko's towngame to handle that interaction is entirely outlandish, but makes sense from the perspective of scum actively trying to include "I am town" in their line of reasoning.

Alternatively Kyouko is town who fears the mafia is strategizing against her in scum pt by asking about Klick's language. The theory being this insane is in line with Kyouko being fearful town. It's highly unlikely Kyouko scum reverse engineers this reasoning out of the conversation. This feels like a natural reaction,

Like your reaction feels so tailor-made to me, and it's also totally unprompted, it just feels too perfect to be a coincidence.

This makes the most sense from the perspective of town feeling played by scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i think the fact that absolutely no1 wants to help me vote dunnstral means he's just mafia

[KawaiiKame]

Sakura feels the most naturally town to me with her questions/playstyle, I really like this,

Either way, i'm still in my belief that unless you're really skilled at lying your analysis as town is gonna be a lot better than your analysis as scum. I have seen nothing to disprove this.

I want to focus in on who is and isn't lying/who has the greatest potential to lie.

kyouko's 58214028121 is insanely specific, concluding T3 was informed of exactly what to say to Kyouko in a PT. I feel it's a truth nuke in Kyouko's pov so she's town.

Alisae's 308 + 310 feels straight up, she's speaking her truth with severe distrust of T3 and seeing most active players as town. The read list implies struggle in seeing who scum is.

Klick opens with 395, town reading me, explaining why in 439 and 440. When town Klick identified me as town in Monkey Business, identified me as scum in Don't Fall Into The Volcano. If the pattern continues Klick is town identifying me as town. My concern is Klick rolling scum, knowing I am town, using it as a weapon, and reverse-engineering reasoning why I am town. Klick's read on me feels organic tho by contrasting my play. Klick saying T3's engagement/interest is +town feels genuine.

T3 is engaged in multiple fronts, defending Sakura against Luka in 158 , going into Sakura's reasoning in 262, slightly scum reading me in 365, analyzing my IS0 in depth in 419 when questioning Klick's townread of me, engaging and defending against Kyouko in 557. T3's depth of logical thought feels town initially, I thought he was town in the beginning with defending Sakura against Luka. My fear is T3 using this precise logic if scum as a weapon to explain away anything, disguising himself as town. Alisae's mistrust and Kyouko's theory that T3 intentionally mentioned Klick's language to get info out of her.

I find this interesting,

Would Cakez really have such poor analysis as scum???

Don't you have it backwards? I imagine people have better analysis as town than as scum in general, since as scum they have to lie while as town they are genuinely analyzing things.

I'd imagine that there would be a voice in his head telling him "hey, you really shouldn't post this, you should try a little harder to make better analysis" if he was scum.

T3 makes excellent analysis, is this T3's own voice speaking to him as scum? Idk if he would make this type of scum slip.

Gamma- I have a hard time reading, pretty neutral. Maybe slight scum lean based on pure vibes + potential scum equity with T3 ? I am liking this analysis,

The answer would be that they're not intentionally doing anything

I think an issue I do see with your mindset is that you seem to be assuming scum have a broader-scope plan. I think that’s probably rarer than you think it is, yes scum generally try to coordinate but I think in the majority of scenarios scum will often just take their own approach

I like her logic, sadly this is right no matter your alignment so it's nai.

VOTE: Luka
In post 159, Luka wrote:
Sakura / Whem / Pooky / T3 as town
VOTE: Gamma
I feel like most of these slots stated as town were sorted far too quickly based on Luka’s prior posts, I’m leaning on most if not all those slots being TMIed town

I want to explore this, Luka is semi likely to be scum if this logic holds up
Note: I meant to post this analysis b4 so it focuses in on the 1st half

Why does any of this make me scum? You’re saying that I am scum who might be using my precise logic to explain away everything but you don’t explain why I am not just town who has precise logic. And what do you mean by “I have the greatest potential to lie”?

It means you have the highest chance to deep wolf by deceiving people with pure logic. If you are scum you are the biggest threat to town in my eyes. I town read you initially, I do not have evidence of you not being town who has precise logic without flipping you. If we do flip you, and you flip scum, it will be the highest value flip.

[KawaiiKame]

i think the fact that absolutely no1 wants to help me vote dunnstral means he's just mafia

What's your scum case on duun? I haven't read his iso.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i think the fact that absolutely no1 wants to help me vote dunnstral means he's just mafia

What's your scum case on duun? I haven't read his iso.

I think the way he pushed me was disingenuous and convoluted. It felt like he had not overarching point and relied on weird verbal tricks to dance around me instead of sorting me. I felt that he never really felt curious about my alignment and wanted to project a lot of certainty about me being mafia which doesn't make sense to me because town!him has never been very good at catching me when I'm mafia like ever. He fell back to wild levels of ate and then quietly shrunk off to vote STD instead when it looked like he was getting nowhere instead of trying to convince anyone I am mafia.

[KawaiiKame]

regardless if my gamma playing "deepwolf" read is wrong and it is just cakez im only 3/4 if it is STD, big sadge.

how is Gamma playing like a deep wolf?

the idea was pushing "correct" reads for cred while encouraging tvt fighting

What tvt fights is Gamma encouraging?

[KawaiiKame]

i think the fact that absolutely no1 wants to help me vote dunnstral means he's just mafia

What's your scum case on duun? I haven't read his iso.

I think the way he pushed me was disingenuous and convoluted. It felt like he had not overarching point and relied on weird verbal tricks to dance around me instead of sorting me. I felt that he never really felt curious about my alignment and wanted to project a lot of certainty about me being mafia which doesn't make sense to me because town!him has never been very good at catching me when I'm mafia like ever. He fell back to wild levels of ate and then quietly shrunk off to vote STD instead when it looked like he was getting nowhere instead of trying to convince anyone I am mafia.

So the lack of solving and convincing makes you feel duun is mafia? Duun is pretty methodical as town in my experience, if he just drops you out of nowhere without pushing you hat's pretty concerning

[KawaiiKame]

Sakura feels the most naturally town to me with her questions/playstyle, I really like this,
In post 572, Sakura Hana wrote:
Either way, i'm still in my belief that unless you're really skilled at lying your analysis as town is gonna be a lot better than your analysis as scum. I have seen nothing to disprove this.

I want to focus in on who is and isn't lying/who has the greatest potential to lie.

I fear T3 has the greatest potential to lie, this is why I'm voting him

Is this a thing you’ve done before? What’s the success rate at catching scum with it?

This is new, inspired by Sakura

Your take on 568 is downright concerning though

Do you actually believe that

yeah I have a feeling about Kawaii’s T3 read

What feeling do you have?

[KawaiiKame]

Your take on 568 is downright concerning though

Do you actually believe that

It's something that caught my eye, definitely a long shot at being a scum tell. The potential exists though the probability is low

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So the lack of solving and convincing makes you feel duun is mafia? Duun is pretty methodical as town in my experience, if he just drops you out of nowhere without pushing you hat's pretty concerning

you can read his iso for yourself and you tell me why he thinks I'm mafia and if that's a genuine belief or some bullshit

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think it's clear that you are not engaging in good faith or understand where I am coming from, and are instead trying to twist everything I say. You also continue to flood the thread with new questions instead of going back and fact-checking what you've already said. I'm going to bow out from this conversation. I suspect somebody will come in, see you've made angry posts, and lazily call you town. To that person, I implore you to rethink things.

this is the conclusion to our conversation or p much the last thing he said to me.

it essentially says that he thinks my plan is to angrily shout him down and hope people see a lot of posts flying back and forth and be too lazy to sort between us who is lying and who is truthtelling or whatever.

I find it hard to believe he believes this for a number of reasons but I thought it'd be interesting to see what would happen if I simply walk away from the argument and chill while ignoring him.

and basically everyone voting me left to go find a new wagon, nobody's voting me, nobody thinks dunn's read on me is right and I've been doing basically nothing for the past three days which plays directly into what he says my behavior pattern is as scum, that i'm just spamming to shut him up and I don't really care.

now in that time he's basically decided to go tap a few different people like saying alisae's read is fake, saying BCG's read is post fact ad hoc, having the world's fakest conversation with JJh, planting his vote on STD which reeks of voting some easy to push LHF slot that nobody can sort because he's not even playing.

he's said not a damn thing about me or the fact that I've basically decided to stop posting since our fight.

and absolutely none of that behavior pattern reads as someone who is absolutely convinced i'm mafia and trying to "implore" the town to read past my "angry posts" and rally support for my lim.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Big Chungus Gaming

[Klick]

{KawaiiKame, Sakura Hana, T3}
{Cephrir, Cakez, Alisae, ssbm_Kyouko}
{Luka, WhemeStar, Dunnstral}
{STD, Gamma, Penguin, Pooky, Chungus, jjh}

Is a rough estimate of my current reads

Klick Is also scum bad read list

To be honest I kind of like that Wheme's initial thought upon reading this is something along the lines of 'Klick's scum and trying to set me up to die after the bottom row'
It feels like a thought that Wheme would be much more likely to have as town

How experienced are you with Wheme? I’d also be inclined to agree with you but I’ve only played with him 3-ish times.

I've probably played with him about as much as you? So pass

[Big Chungus Gaming]

regardless if my gamma playing "deepwolf" read is wrong and it is just cakez im only 3/4 if it is STD, big sadge.

how is Gamma playing like a deep wolf?

the idea was pushing "correct" reads for cred while encouraging tvt fighting

What tvt fights is Gamma encouraging?

i dont feel like relooking at what i saw but i think something related to pooky and/or T3 was a couple examples. im not good at conveying my POV in a way that makes sense to others fwiw, my style is kinda "you read what i tell you with x theory and y context and either you get what im saying or you don't" xd

[Big Chungus Gaming]

VOTE: Big Chungus Gaming

in context to what I personally perceive as "waking up" and improving my posting and knowing your level of play - I find this vote bizarre for a town POV - although I see some level of reasoning plausible, I find me dropping you from my townreads justified.

because from a scum POV, this is a grab to make sure to keep me viable in reaction to me picking up my behavior.

is PP town now btw? because I think - a more logical point to go towards in your shoes, at least to me if I believed your reads as they were, I would be wanting to push PP here and see how other slots act. I know better than to project my own thought process

[Big Chungus Gaming]

T3 - What do you think of 504?

I thought that there was a chance you could be disingenuous scum but I buy your explanation

Subject: Hollow Knight Mafia [game over]

wow klick not gonna even bother asking ME about my petapan fanboy townread.
Rude af

Klick honorary scum.

If you can convince me petapan is town I'm also happy to hear it!
The other fire has a way of speaking to my soul though

Here's Klick using the same language as town in a past game btw

What do you think my explanation was? Are you talking about 495?

Yes.

I was under the impression that you were saying "Klick has a scum mindset because he said 'convince me' rather than 'explain to me'"
I thought this was a bad read, and perhaps disingenuous, but I buy your explanation of "I've seen that phrasing be used many times, but I can't say with confidence it's from both alignments" (or something to that effect)

that's not what I meant at all - I don't think he's scum for the wording, I don't doubt he could use those words as either alignment. In the game you linked, he's been playing from the start.

My point is, one of the first things he did on replacing in, was ask to be convinced that the leading wagon is on scum. This makes sense when the VC is more contentious (think competing E-2 wagons), when the game is longer, and reading a lot of pages will be time-consuming, or when the deadline is shorter, and there isn't enough time to read.

None of that applied here which is why I thought it was scummy. What bugs me maybe even more though is your defense of Klick. I dont know why you're first assuming my read is based on Klick's verbiage, and then why you decided to pull meta on Klick to support town!Klick when as far as I can tell you haven't expressed a TR on me (wanting to steer your TRs the right direction) or Klick(wanting today defend your TRs). I'm thinking there's a possibility that my playstyle is being discussed in the scum PT and I'm being targeted for pocketing, which would mean someone on the scumteam is very familiar with me. That brings Gamma and Koba to my mind right off the bat

I assumed your read was based on Klick's verbiage, yes. I don't see why my misunderstanding of your read makes me scum. I do not have a strong read on either you or Klick, and I defended him from you because I thought your point was illogical. And how does this connect to pocketing you at all?

I feel like the simplest conclusion one would draw reading my 495 is not that my scumread was based on Klick's verbiage, but that it's based on my thinking Klick did not display a town mindset in his [ppst]412[/post]. However, someone who knows me well would know that it is not uncommon for me to nitpick on verbiage as town. I have often found that players' particular word choices are strange and done meta-dives where I check if a player normally uses those words. It feels like you, T3, were familiar with that, and you delivered the evidence of town!Klick to me unprompted, and in a manner that I would normally find Klick to be town for myself if this particular SR on Klick was based on his verbiage. I do not think you should have that level of familiarity with my play, which makes me think that you are in a PT with someone that advised you on my meta. Of this playerlist, that someone is almost certainly one of Gamma or Koba, or maybe Dunnstral.

ok i am just reading this but imma be real with u but even if i was scum i would not have been able to tell anyone much about your play and how to play around your slot, a side effect of having a good handle on your alignment very quickly is that i barely pick up on more nuanced parts of your play

i will say - t3 knowing who I am fairly quick was something mild that pinged me earlier (if I am remembering correctly. I sure am having some bad memory problems this game huh)
I never announced my name, and it was mostly known to pooky afaik from the last game i played on this account(and by extension dunnstral too actually)

i will keep t3/dunn as paired in the back of my head though - in my experience this is more a kinda "bragging rights" type of read that is too variable to commit to but good to think about when sorting other content.

[Big Chungus Gaming]

i think the fact that absolutely no1 wants to help me vote dunnstral means he's just mafia

What's your scum case on duun? I haven't read his iso.

I think the way he pushed me was disingenuous and convoluted. It felt like he had not overarching point and relied on weird verbal tricks to dance around me instead of sorting me. I felt that he never really felt curious about my alignment and wanted to project a lot of certainty about me being mafia which doesn't make sense to me because town!him has never been very good at catching me when I'm mafia like ever. He fell back to wild levels of ate and then quietly shrunk off to vote STD instead when it looked like he was getting nowhere instead of trying to convince anyone I am mafia.

bookmarking this because i want to see where exactly dunn voted std

[Big Chungus Gaming]

i do think that the wagon on me is overwhelmingly pushed by scum/willage and sometimes the line is hard to discern lmao

[Big Chungus Gaming]

cephrir/dunn/PP/STD would b too easy of a team i thinks

maybe one of PP/STD has to be town here xd

regardless, I think VOTE: Dunnstrall is in order