Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[Klick]

@Ydrasse: do you have a preferred alignment?

atm probably town
the last time i played scum i was miserable but i was also burned out horribly

That's the vibe I had

The thing that is currently selling me on you being town is that you feel like you want to be here and are enjoying solving in a way that you wouldn't be expressing if you were scum
And I'm trying to decide whether that's a valid reason to think you're town here
I'm leaning yes?

[Prism]

Coalition Vote Count 0.2

Coalition	Voters
Klick, Ydrasse, DragonEater70, DeasVail (1)	Klick
Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, DeasVail (1)	DragonEater70
implosion, DragonEater70, ssbm_Kyouko (1)	Ydrasse
Elements, T3 (1)	Appearance
ssbm_Kyouko, Elements (1)	ssbm_Kyouko
Elements, DragonEater70 (1)	implosion
Not Voting (3)	DeasVail, T3, Elements

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to form a coalition.

No coalition has been achieved. The Coalition Phase deadline is in (expired on 2024-01-10 23:00:00).

[Appearance]

catching up

[Appearance]

dragon might actually be town here now that i think about it.
scum wouldn't be this upset about having to form trs.

[Appearance]

HEAL: dragon

[Appearance]

HEAL: ydra

[DragonEater70]

Appearance can you talk to me about your reads a bit

Just in general, why do you TR the people in your coal and who do you think is scummy

[implosion]

@implosion: Then what do you think of my post which was basically the same thing?

Your post is rhetorically very different and also I think your group has a much higher chance of being all town

I am confused, am I missing something?

I'm not sure what the confusion is about? I elaborated in 169. If you mean about the group being all town, Dragoneater's group also had Appearance in it.

Which post do you want to locktown Elements for? The 7 players thing?

Yes.

I totally understand your annoyance if you are town, but you gotta realize I got to get the game moving and currently that's the only thread I can pull on, and I will abuse it as much as I can to move the game forward.

I'm not really impressed with your self meta and general reaction to my push. If you are town and want to help me sort you, can you answer these questions please:
Who do you think has acted in an actual scummy way or did things you can point out as scum-motivated, other than just not being out of their scumrange like DV?
What do you think of Kyo's recent posting?
What do you think about my interaction with Klick and our reads on each other? (I'm interested both in your thoughts about his read on me, and my read on him).

These questions aren't busywork btw, they will definitely help me sort you.

This response is making me question my read on you. It feels like scum trying not to look like they're tunneling/trying not to piss me off while still wanting to keep me in their scumreads. Particularly the first line, like, what do you mean I'm the only thread you can pull on, that's not even vaguely true. I also kind of don't believe you actually think these questions will help sort me. I think this makes a

lot

of sense as a ploy from scum who has already decided to just shove me in a bucket and move on until after the coalition phase is over, but who feels they can't say that out loud because they'll have to work with me when the coalition fails.

"Who do you think has acted in an actual scummy way or did things you can point out as scum-motivated" is a very bad question to ask me in general. This post is actually the first example this game ironically but there are plenty of games where I simply don't get any real scumreads d1. I usually mostly find town.

I mentioned I think kyouko healing just Elements is a weird thing to come from scum. Just in the sense of like, it's not an action that would really be contributing to her win condition because Elements isn't exactly a player controlling the conversation of the game, and in my mind kyouko is a generally good player. That argument sort of applies to if she's town as well but I think townies are more likely to just do weird shit sometimes. The post timing on 140/141 is something fascinating that I'm just noticing now, it might imply that she is actually reading the game but is being coy with thoughts because I'm not sure what you'd do for 20 minutes that would result in making post 141 otherwise, which would be townish if true because scum who is actually reading the game has not much reason to be coy in this setup unless she's scum with someone who is or who looked very likely to end up on coalition, e.g. you.

Reading through your/Klick's interactions nothing looks especially meaningful in either direction. The first interaction is interesting but kind of a commonplace kind of thing in mafia these days. Is there something in particular you think I should be seeing? The dynamic of you being the two people who are starting to actually push coalitions is something, in principle Klick doesn't have a ton of need to do that at the point he did as scum with you doing it for him (and you're quite unlikely to be scum together both pushing to both be on the coalition with each other).

[DeasVail]

@implosion: my confusion was because based on what your reads it didnt make sense to me that dragon eater’s group would be considered to be much more likely all town.

[implosion]

@Klick: what's your current take on Elements?

i do think Ydrasse is being somewhat consistently townish.

I wish T3 would post more.

[implosion]

@implosion: my confusion was because based on what your reads it didnt make sense to me that dragon eater’s group would be considered to be much more likely all town.

I was saying Klick's group was more likely to be all town (though it also had one fewer person which helps).

[DeasVail]

*based on what your reads were

I guess Appearance is a difference (I might have gone by dragon’s most recent group instead of the one with Appearance, but I was in both groups so it was still a bit surprising to me)

[DeasVail]

Wait, I think I’m missing appearance’s name being in the vote count on my phone

[DeasVail]

Never mind

[Klick]

@Klick: what's your current take on Elements?

i do think Ydrasse is being somewhat consistently townish.

I wish T3 would post more.

When I skimmed the Elements-town reasoning earlier it felt too gimmicky to be reliable but it's been a while since I paid it attention. I don't feel strongly on Elements either way atm.

I'll have quite a lot of time to sit and play this evening, and I can have a better look then

[DragonEater70]

I've written a wallpost on why implo's response to me is scummy but tbh I don't feel like posting it.

I mean, like Klick said, we're likely winning the game soon anyway. And I feel posting it would just lead to more wallposting and fatigue.

If someone really feels like reading a huge wallpost, let me know and I'll post it

For now the TLDR is that I feel implo tried to pocket me earlier, failed, and is now trying to discredit me.

[DragonEater70]

Oh also the way he's pointing out why my sorting of him is apparently in bad faith and saying he's "questioning" his read on me, but not actually actively scumreading me (with a coalition unvote), makes me feel like he's ready to backtrack on the scumread and go back to trying to pocket me if I ever townread him / give up the SR.



Anyway Klick

I understand what you said about Ydra, let me have a quick reread of her and I'll tell you what I think about her as a coalition member.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry, I somehow managed to get sidetracked from this TWICE

As for my read on Klick, he feels like he's not trying to be TR'd at all (unless he is playing a game of "let's pocket Dragon and get null'd by everybody else", which if it is the case then I wish him luck with that since idk how far it will get him), and I think that makes him pretty towny.

who do you think is trying to do that then?

he hasn’t posted a lot so i struggle to see how someone can very comfortably make that call i guess. there’s a part of me that thinks he could be playing a clever wolf game based on how he treated you by like… kind of uno carding you. i don’t know how likely this is but i felt it was possible, and if he was doing something like that he’s now got someone in his court without much loss. with what looks like recent history it makes sense to me that he might want to capitalize on that when presented with the chance, etc

What are you thinking about Klick right now?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Wild that less than 3 pages have happened since my last content.

I have mixed feelings about the "implosion is trying to look like town" angle. I both want to say that it's probably a personality/playstyle quirk and that of course I'm going to try to look like town in a setup that is about finding and being found as town (which is I guess every setup that I've played since stepping down as listmod >_>). I don't think the latter is really being fair to the argument but it is just an annoying accusation to have levied when idk, I think I do fundamentally play the game with wanting to appear town in mind as town because I just enjoy the game more when I am found as town, it's probably not even out of thinking it's the best way to win, it's just the way I automatically think about the game.

I think probably something that does exist is being seen there but it's probably something you'd see in pretty much any of my towngames and it's telling that I'm being townread by Ydrasse (who has played with me very recently and also i think a second time semi-recently) and scumread by dragoneater (who i think has never played with me) and deasvail (who i'm pretty sure i've played with but probably not in something like half a decade).

Though it is possible Ydrasse is scum

Is there a reason for this in your opinion, or are you just putting it out there "in case" she's TMIing you and not "because you suspect" she's TMIing you? I reread over what Ydrasse posted about you originally and her talk about you with DE, and it seems like it's all been genuine

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Alright game solved for realsies

HEAL: Klick, Appearance, Dragon, Elements, DeasVail

Now I just lurk until DV and Klick figure out this is the correct solve and then we just convince two others.

The kind of rhetoric of this post is something I feel like I could write an essay about. In the last coalition game I played, I was scum and there was a player (Hero at Heart) who was repeatedly giving similar rhetoric of surety about their coalition (nb: both scum were in it). I think d1 in that game was somewhat easy for me to navigate probably in large part due to that kind of rhetoric, where certain people (myself included) were almost viewed as above scrutiny in a way that felt like it radiated out from Hero's reads. Granted, Hero actually did change his reads plenty of times iirc, but ultimately the town deferred to it with the only real objection coming from me (because i softly wanted my scumbuddy off the coalition).

In this case, I think this coalition is massively likely to have scum on it somewhere. And I don't think DragonEater has the same kind of rhetorical sway that Hero did in that game. But it really makes me not like the direction that this day is going right now.

It’s weird to me that you’d use the amount of time since we last played together to question the reliability of my read on you and then make an unsolicited comment on my scumplay (particularly since 5-10 years ago I was probably better known for strong town play than strong scum play).

The comment on scumplay is more a continuation of 155 than it is of 156

I'm kind of lost on "rhetorical" sway - is that just like "influence" over the game? I don't really know what rhetorical means outside of a "rhetorical" question
Are you trying to compare Dragon's sureness in his coalition to this HoH player's sureness? And saying Dragon doesn't have the same influence as HoH had?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Elements if we were in the voting stage (not coalition) who would you be voting for now? Also if you can think of this, who would you have voted for so far before the hypothetical "current" vote?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@mod I'll be V/LA over the weekend (every weekend actually)

[DragonEater70]

Anyway Klick

Having read Prism's last modded game, I have to conclude that WIM is probably NAI for Ydra? Considering she seemed to be low WIM as town in that one.

[Klick]

I think Ydrasse can be low WIM as either alignment
I think the high WIM expressed here is because Ydrasse is town

[Klick]

I've seen low-WIM Ydrasse-town as well

What I haven't seen is this kind of engagement from scum-Ydrasse
Might be worth a nosey through her scum meta in a bit