Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[implosion]

come talk about ydra/dunn and appearance with me

correct me if im wrong but the vibe i am kind of getting from you is that you are like "okay i feel like i know how to read these people (klick/dragon/kyo). and they seem town. and i don't really know how to read these people (ydra/appearance) confidently. so they're probably scum"

and like i get the appeal of that conceptually but idk it feels a little complacent. maybe you have stronger reasons for those slots being scum and i missed them

i guess i would just like to know more where your head is at in a broader, like, "how we should be approaching this gamestate" sense, which was something that i remember feeling was present from you in scarfolk

I'm not like specifically framing it that way internally but I guess? I don't really have a good amount of meta understanding of any of those 3 people ultimately. I think they have all towntold though. I will try to elaborate on Ydrasse since Dragon also asked. I definitely feel bad about not knowing about Appearance and I feel like I just kind of hope he is scum because my reads will happen to be better in that world

Scarfolk was sort of an exceptionally good game for me because I was able to pivot my leading the wrong lim on d1 into townblocking with Aisa to the point where I was able to view the game from a really high level and really feel like I was sorting things out. But this is a more typical d1 for me where I don't really feel amazing about anything except some townreads.

[implosion]

Regarding Ydrasse I just had the thought that it's possible her early read on me was TMI. Or like, that I was a convenient person in the gamestate for her to launch a vague defense of to maybe pocket. I don't remember if she's really seen my scumgame though she has seen my towngame recently and also in scarfolk


I mentioned that 354 is townish for her but I think it's certainly a post she makes sometimes as scum, particularly given that it was a pop-in where it was her first real post in 3 days and then she didn't post again for 2 days after that sequence of posts. I think openly voting a coalition without yourself is a sensible cheap way to buy some towncred when you're not really efforting as scum. That's not to say 354 is scummy, but that I think it is in her scum range.


I think 540 is the main post that I dislike as time has passed more. I initially mentioned this post giving me mixed feelings. The context here is that her last significant posting was 354, and it's been a few days and the coalition she voted in 354 is now at e-1. In that context it feels like a post she'd potentially make both if there's one scum on the coalition or if there's 0 - if there's 0 then she can't really unvote because that would be very auspicious and if there's 1 then she wants the coalition to go through. Like, whatever the gamestate around her is, if she's scum there then she is serviced heavily by waffling and not being the one to drive how the coalition changes because I think if she does try to take a major stance at that exact moment in time she's going to be very heavily scrutinized for it. So I think 540 is like, pretty exactly the post that Ydrasse makes there as scum, and I think there's lots of possible posts she could make there as town where she either commits to thinking the coalition needs to change and unvotes or she like, suggests what she thinks is an alternative or she doubles down on not wanting herself to be in the coalition or whatever.

I think the overall posting pattern of having like, a solid entrance to the game -> a couple moments of big effort and then being uninterested in much meaningful analysis outside of those moments, is a pattern that is pretty likely to come from scum who came in with the will to Do Stuff and who then lost some of that will over time because they didn't need to have it since no one was pressuring them, and is less likely to come from town who, when they make an effortful post, is necessarily mentally engaging with things that are happening. It's also why her replace out sort of frustrated me because I think that pattern continuing or not continuing would have been telling

I'll talk more about Dunn's posting at some point

[fireisredsir]

do you find it meaningful at all that both ydra and appearance primarily pushed coalitions that didn't include themselves until the very end

pedit: ah okay i see you mentioned this

[fireisredsir]

hm ill relook at context for 540

[gob]

ive been reading dragon meta and i have some thoughts but its somewhat difficult to summon the courage to make a post on it

it would be helpful to me to have someone to talk to about the game here but it feels like people aren't really in the mood for that. im not sure if it's the suspicion that was on my slot or if it's the gamestate itself or what

I think it's the gamestate.

Even though I suspected your slot (and still do to a small extent), it's not something that is super present on my mind.

I think, for me, Appearance is still the preferred vote.

Its definutely not Appearance. Their popins have been towny. I think we go fire here today

[gob]

I think everyone needs to seriously consider limming fire right here right now.

I think fire is good enough to wolf us here. Going off how kyo acted, and the fact looking at pools it suggests we should lim kyo (fire) or ydrasse (dunnstral).


I still think these two are good to vote between. The reason why i want to go Fire is because i suspect Fire is good enough to wolf us. Plus their posts are obnoxiously long, which i see good wolves do a lot. Most people see the length of the posts and effort-clear.

I think DeasVail sorta just did this

However Dunnstral I havent been feeling the solvy-energy as usual. And Ydrasse openly said she wasnt interested in solving.

So what does everyone else think? I feel like game wise, its easier to argue for limming Dunnstal since fire has been high efforting. But because of that fact, i want to vote the other way limming Fire.

[gob]

My post was really long and pointless to drive home the fact you can just ramble and say shit.

[gob]

Implo can you post a reads list perchance?

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Appearance

implosion, is there a point in time where you expect Appearance to be less inscrutable to you?

Not really. I'd ultimately be happy with a lim on him for that reason since he's in the coalition and I like 3 of the people in the coalition

I am side eyeing you pretty hard for your push on me. Something about it doesn't feel like the way you play as town. You seem way too confident to be calling things out with little information to go on.

I don't mean to come off as confident, I'm not particularly confident that you're scum. It's pretty typical for me to be confident in townreads though by now

I don't think you ever answered this.

Thought i said this but I guess I didn't, your entrance doesn't "have to be" impressive for you to be town, that's a weirdly absolutist question to ask when I'm not claiming to be absolutely sure you're scum. I said your entrance was "not exactly impressive" which is shorthand for you haven't done anything to assuage my feelings on Ydrasse.

What implosion posts in 783 here is super vague and you can say this about pretty much anyone. I don't think implosion is super vague as town like this so this feels off to me. Also I want to note that I copy paste what implosion writes and make it about them to try to showcase this and Klick responds super seriously but without much explanation. My belief here is that Klick did not even read implosion's post above and did not realize I was posting the same thing as implosion, and this not reading of posts strikes me as more likely to come from mafia (regardless of implosion's alignment really)

I think I think i've been being clearer than I have been to some degree. I was specific in the mini wallpost on ydrasse but I haven't really explained what from that I was referring to or how my thoughts have developed but basically I came away from ISOing her with mixed feelings; I figured she'd likely be more readable over time and I had a sense of how I'd want to read her over time and that like mid next day or sometime like that I'd have a better sense of her based on how her engagement develops, how she tries to work with other people, etc. Then she repped out and it recontextualized her ISO to me as this thing where everything she has done feels eminently in her scumrange and she no longer will ever post things that are out of it, and you came in and did largely nothing in a gamestate that I think town is probably doing sorta poorly in and it just feels congruent with how scum would enter this particular game.

I also disagree with the point on Klick, I think missing entire posts is something that e.g. i'm probably more likely to do as town than as scum because as scum I'm deeply afraid of being misinterpreted or getting things wrong whereas when i'm town I know it's okay to just post things because I can always fall back on actually being town. Obviously it's not as simple as that but I don't think it's a meaningful scumtell particularly when I think reading your post without mine it looked like it was probably referencing something because there was no context

implosion can you help me understand why this is town!you analysis and not scum!you analysis?

[DragonEater70]

Like I'm not scumreading it, I just have 0 reason to see it as towny.

[DragonEater70]

can someone who has played with gob explain why this is town gob behavior

i read a couple games and it looks to me like he just makes stuff up and throws it at the wall as either alignment and its hard for me to see a difference

This is overall true but I think the tonality as town is different. Like as scum he bullshit SRs you and you feel he's insincere, and as town he bullshit SRs you and you feel it's sadly sincere.

This is very poorly explained, but what I am trying to get at is I think there are subtle differences at how he goes about having bad reads as town or scum, and it shows here. For example as scum he would have a lot of TMI reads. Like let's say we're in a world where the scum team is gob and dunnstral, I would expect him to shade Dunnstral (but less than the main person he's pushing, i.e. me) and also to say things like how you are obvious town and I am scummy for voting you, but it's not really happening here.

[DragonEater70]

Or alternatively if he wants to push you he'd say I am obvious town etc.

[DragonEater70]

That's my take on gob from playing 2-3 games with him and spectating 2-3 games with him.

[DragonEater70]

ive been reading dragon meta and i have some thoughts but its somewhat difficult to summon the courage to make a post on it

it would be helpful to me to have someone to talk to about the game here but it feels like people aren't really in the mood for that. im not sure if it's the suspicion that was on my slot or if it's the gamestate itself or what

Please do

[DragonEater70]

But yeah it's mainly a horrible gamestate

I do think we need a flip

In a world where you are towna and flip town then I think it would be really easy to spot the scum on the coalition

Idk

[DragonEater70]

Alright, I (mostly) read fireisredsir's homework assignment.

It's pretty impressive.

I am going to have to metadive fireisredsir to figure out if it's AI. Will probably do that on my work break.

[Appearance]

i'm going to look thru fire's scumgames tonight.

[DeasVail]

I guess with Appearance I worry that there's a lot of talking about doing things but not really the follow-through, which isn't by any means impossible from town but I worry that there's been a lot of work put into SHOWING us that he's doing things.

I really do not have strong feelings here. I would settle for Dunnstral maybe but whenever I think of maybe voting there I kind of feel uncomfortable about it.

[fireisredsir]

im going to keep my next 10 posts short for gob

[fireisredsir]

after looking at context more i think implosions point about 540 being a post scum-ydra makes is probably true if there's 1 scum on coal.

i think i disagree on her making that post if there's 0 scum in her voted coal. its a waffling post yes but i don't think its a post that will convince anyone else to waffle, which is more important

[fireisredsir]

this also has the context of being when dragon had somewhat started his antsiness but not fully

i think that in a dragon town world scum may have felt threatened by his last minute doubts and there's likely to be signs of that somewhere

this is why klick handing off the reins to him in that moment is either very confident or very towny, and i would lean towards the latter

[fireisredsir]

to fully cover bases i did briefly consider if a dragon/klick scum world is viable and pretty quickly decided that no it isn't. i think like the entirety of everything would have played out differently if that was the case

[Prism]

Dunnstral and Klick have been prodded. They have 24 hours to post before I begin searching for replacements.

[Dunnstral]

In that context it feels like a post she'd potentially make both if there's one scum on the coalition or if there's 0 - if there's 0 then she can't really unvote because that would be very auspicious and if there's 1 then she wants the coalition to go through.

If there's 0 and Ydrasse was mafia then not unvoting could lead to losing the game. You rpoint that she can't unvote because she would look bad doesn't really hold up - indeed she would have to unvote.

[fireisredsir]

dunn, who do you think is scum in the coalition?