open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[JupiterXV]

i really don't want to vote project. if i were jk here i'd jail project and i'm pretty sure titus would make a similar choice

[Dannflor]

also what does scum ower have to gain from tunneling the entire game

I think asking “what does scum gain from x” is the wrong type of question to ask when you are hunting for scum

Most of the time, scum aren’t exclusively taking actions that obviously further their win conditions

but the fact remains that in my experience players with largely static reads throughout the game are a little more likely to be scum than not

It’s harder to fake read changes than it is to fake a tunnel basically

[Dannflor]

i really don't want to vote project. if i were jk here i'd jail project and i'm pretty sure titus would make a similar choice

I am not clear who you *do* want to vote

[JupiterXV]

i really don't want to vote project. if i were jk here i'd jail project and i'm pretty sure titus would make a similar choice

I am not clear who you *do* want to vote

me too

[JupiterXV]

the only person who i don't have a concrete reason to townread yet is bella and i don't want to vote ower but i will if i have to

[JupiterXV]

like i'm honestly Really not sure who it is here i just know that it's not dann or tiredperson

[JupiterXV]

also what does scum ower have to gain from tunneling the entire game

I think asking “what does scum gain from x” is the wrong type of question to ask when you are hunting for scum

Most of the time, scum aren’t exclusively taking actions that obviously further their win conditions

but the fact remains that in my experience players with largely static reads throughout the game are a little more likely to be scum than not

It’s harder to fake read changes than it is to fake a tunnel basically

oh, okay. that makes sense, thank you for answering

[JupiterXV]

the reason i like to scumhunt that way is because as scum i tend to be always calculating risk/reward scenarios and i think most other people will at least want to be careful

[Dannflor]

Well i also don’t think tunneling project is a particularly risky position to take

[JupiterXV]

yeah but the issue with tunneling especially for a long time is that it makes you look bad

[JupiterXV]

e.g assume project is town ower is scum, ower knows project is LHF and easy to push. the issue with this push is that literally everyone ELSE also knows project is or at least has lhf potential because he's more unfamilliar with mafia. obviously ower could be scum here but lying down on project for so long when there are clearly better positions to take (that could also give you more towncred btw) just kind of feels disadvantageous and i'm not sure if it comes from stubbornness or scum. at this point it could be from scum ower who laid down on project for too long and just couldn't get back up, or it could be from town.
personally i've seen a lot of townies who stubbornly tunneled on some players and drove games to ruin because of it (t3 if you're in specchat: talking about bob here, if you remember him!!! havent been in aops maf community in a while so idk if he still does this but yk). and i also tunnel a lot out as town but that's less trying to push one player and one player only but LITERAL tunnel vision like only this player exists and I will kill them dead

[JupiterXV]

oh wait t3 wasn't in aops mafia community until recently no you wouldn't know but you could read like any past game with town bob and watch him tunnel so bad

[Dannflor]

yeah that makes sense

[Dannflor]

I think the main thing I don’t love from Project is how many times he’s pulled the newbie card in his ISO to argue why he can’t be scum or to hedge on his reads

[ProjEctRy]

VOTE: OWER

That’s E-1.

I’m going off of a process of elimination. I’ve previously said I’m against a Dann or Shiki (now tired person) lim. Bella I don’t really have a read either way.

I was between OWER and Jupiter, but based off of recent posts I’ve moved away from Jupiter.

That leaves OWER.

[ProjEctRy]

I think the main thing I don’t love from Project is how many times he’s pulled the newbie card in his ISO to argue why he can’t be scum or to hedge on his reads

I accept me being a newbie doesn’t rule me out being scum, I think I’ve just meant it in a way that it explains a lot of my actions (or lack of actions). But I appreciate that can be frustrating to others.

[OutWorldER]

pretty sure everyone figured it out already but I'm a VT.

if I get hammered here y'all better not let Project win this game on god

[JupiterXV]

I think the main thing I don’t love from Project is how many times he’s pulled the newbie card in his ISO to argue why he can’t be scum or to hedge on his reads

this is what i've been saying for a while, yeah
i think i'm more willing to bet that project is town, though. i could be wrong

[JupiterXV]

I think the main thing I don’t love from Project is how many times he’s pulled the newbie card in his ISO to argue why he can’t be scum or to hedge on his reads

I accept me being a newbie doesn’t rule me out being scum, I think I’ve just meant it in a way that it explains a lot of my actions (or lack of actions). But I appreciate that can be frustrating to others.

it's really not a good defense and it feels like you're taking the easy pass out tbh

[JupiterXV]

okay, that wasn't phrased well. give me a sec

[JupiterXV]

i forgor

[ProjEctRy]

I think the main thing I don’t love from Project is how many times he’s pulled the newbie card in his ISO to argue why he can’t be scum or to hedge on his reads

I accept me being a newbie doesn’t rule me out being scum, I think I’ve just meant it in a way that it explains a lot of my actions (or lack of actions). But I appreciate that can be frustrating to others.

it's really not a good defense and it feels like you're taking the easy pass out tbh

I know you’ve said you intended to phrase this differently, but what I would say to the original post is that it’s not supposed to be a ‘good’ defence.

I’m not trying to hide anything, it was just a explanation for my lack of contribution.

[JupiterXV]

okay, that wasn't phrased well. give me a sec

anyways my issue with the newbie defense is that it's just. not a good defense? you can use it in any situation for any reason and instead of actually explaining why _ occured because you did _, you just say "hey I'm a newbie that's why". no thought process, nothing at all.
it's also kind of pointless because when you sya you're a newb and that's why _ doesn't incriminate you or why black isn't your partner, it's like.... in the latter example, you being a newbie could literally be a reason behind why you and black could be partnered. or as you literally just said, you being a newbie could be a reason behind why you're not contributing.... regardless of whether you're town or scum. it's not a productive way to defend yourself, it's irritating to respond to, and also it's like. yeah i know it's an explanation but i'm trying to explain why i feel like. it's not a good kind of type of post to make? if that makes sense? like there are better ways to defend yourself from accusations that make yourself look more towny and i think "i'm a newbie" defenses tend to more commonly come from scum
i dont wanna get nitpicky because it's really fine and i can't control what you do. at this point i kind of doubt you're scum at all and maybe it's just OWER here

[JupiterXV]

IM SORRY IF IM BEING MEAN I DONT WANNA TRY AND FORCE YOU TO DO ANYTHING
i'm just trying to like. help i guess. an example of a more productive way to defend yourself when ower says black is buddying you is. you could find an interaction between you two that shows explicitly that you're not partnered. or you could take into account the way T3 and black interact and use that as the baseline, explain why that's how you're not partnered with either of them. those are just ideas off the top of my head but at the time you probably would have not considered these options

[JupiterXV]

you're also probably older than me and I don't want to boss around an elder