Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN

[biancospino]

votecount (UNCHANGED)

Votecount 3-IX

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to hammer, or 4 to decide for no execution.

Enchant (2):

Duelist Kage, Gypyx

Duelist Kage (1):

JacksonVirgo

Not Voting (5):

davesaz, Elements, Enchant, Thomith, Hu Tao

notes

• The deadline is due in (expired on 2024-01-23 05:00:23).
  
• You can find the combined mod ISO here
  
• This VC used to be in post 2619, but then I did some magic to grab the pagetop.

[JacksonVirgo]

I’m not able to post in depth atm but if y’all are suspecting Elements, I think that’s a little silly personally but we can switch Kage with Thom so Kage can check Elements’ modifiers either confirming or creating a 1v1.

[Duelist Kage]

And in the world where there is no scum factional kill cuz of compulsive wolves.

9v3 wcs
Elim into 8v3
Vig vended 8v3
Elim into 7v3
Vig vended + 2 town dead 5v3
Elim into 4v3
Vig vended + 2 town dead 2v3

That's worst case scenario.
Wolves got 1.33 KPN by N3 and then it once again drops because that's exhausting the double kills.
And that's additional KPN that's risky as fuck due to it being in the hands of the Town

AND

delayed so it can be dealt with by the JK, the doctor invention, or gypyx's utility to control the killing somewhat. 3+ ways to block the kills, plus a slow and not even that beneficial kill method for the scum that's only barely beneficial by numbers over a traditional night kill that would only really benefit them if they're super lucky or they had excellent thread control

If you run it normally
9v3 elims into 8v3
kills into 7v3
elims into 6v3
kills into 5v3
elims into 4v3
kills into 3v3

Notice how it's pretty much the exact same?

What's the same, the two scenarios you gave which both end after 3 miseliminations (actually in the first one town still has a chance after the third miselimination if the townie hits scum with the vig)? Okay, and? You're coming up with a scenario which you yourself call "not at all what I'd expect from a normal" and insisting that it's somehow likely what's going on here rather than it just being a 2p wolf team, because if it's 2p you'd have to clear me and you're too tunneled for that. You're almost making

me

want to consider that you're TMIing your "3 wolves but they're all compulsively doing something useless besides the inventor and so Maul is just a red herring" scenario but I'm not going to go down the paranoia rabbithole. The tunnel on me is annoying - like, you call my and Gypyx's powers unhelpful and then complain that there's too many PRs for them all to be real? You're trying to talk your mech into agreeing with your scumread rather than re-evaluate it. I'm probably not going to engage with you on this matter further, I don't see it doing any good. I'm going to start looking at all the claims and strategize now.

[Duelist Kage]

Elements please claim. Can you do more jail keeps?

2-shot simple compulsive combined jailkeep vanilla cop

dave N1, you N2

Oh, just seeing this. Interesting. Your vanilla cop got results on both of them? Vanilla should be a clear because remaining scum is godfather/backup into inventor (or *sigh* compulsively doing something that blocks them from making a NK). I'm assuming someone having an invention would still show as vanilla but if that's not what you got on them it's worth double-checking.

[Hu Tao]

Oh good point. Did Dave n1 say vanilla too?

[Duelist Kage]

Not sure I believe Elements claim. The time to claim who the action was on was immediately, not after an eternity of thought about what wouldn't be incriminating.

??

It was a bit annoying to have to wait, but how can anything be incriminating? Are you arguing for a wolf having a JK+investigative?

Also, was the follow (?) result "rolecop" or "rolecop-like"? Could make a difference as what Elements said was vanilla cop. A rolecop would be able to give a specific role.

Follower action gives results in the form of a category, such as killing, jailkeeping, role-investigative, etc. It was something in the role investigative category, which has 11 different possibilites and Vanilla Cop is indeed one of them. Not that I doubted it would be.

[JacksonVirgo]

complain that there's too many PRs for them all to be real?

Where did I complain that there's too many PRs? Because I'm not lock-towning the PR claims? That feels unreasonable, I believe what I believe and I'm not making plans that are beneficial to just my point of view but helpful even if I'm wrong, I've constantly made arguments that "if this is a 2-wolf world" etc just in case I

am

wrong because I'm not stupid, I just believe what I believe. I'm sick of doing this back and forth with you, we're bumping our heads together and I think we're both assuming things of the other that aren't true as you keep saying I feel ways that I don't? And just out of respect I'm going to just assume that it's a misunderstanding rather than malicious intent just for our collective sanity.

I am curious what you feel is a good strategy, I feel mine is fairly optimal for all worlds. I guess it needs updating now that Elements claimed a 2-shot. You seem like a mech-leaning player as am I so curious if we can come to the same conclusion on what's optimal

[JacksonVirgo]

Hm wait,

@Gypyx

you said that you scum-read Black. Why did you give Black an invention?

[JacksonVirgo]

my N2 was also spent on Black so no result from that one

Not your N1 but your N2. As your N1 was not you

[JacksonVirgo]

also that's a rough night for me, black and katsuki kinda were my top SR's

As you said they were your top SRs first thing

[Hu Tao]

Hm wait,

@Gypyx

you said that you scum-read Black. Why did you give Black an invention?

[Duelist Kage]

I don't think it's actually necessary to cross-invention each other, I just said each other cuz it seems cleaner to think about but if u got a Macho left, you should probably place it on someone scummy so that if it lands and somebody gets a suicide-vig they can avoid killing themselves.

There shouldn't be any more of the vig+bg so I don't think this is necessary, I believe we can just use it to confirm amount of wolves via her Lazy modifier. So best to send it to you?

[Duelist Kage]

Here's what I've got:

Claims

Duelist Kage:

JOAT (Follower on Elements N1, Gunsmith on Black N2, ModifierCop)

Gypyx:

Lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor to Black N2, Cop-Inventor to Black N1, compulsive personal Strengthener, Macho)

JacksonVirgo:

Inventor (?)

davesaz:

VT?

Elements:

JOAT 2xSimple Compulsive Combined Jailkeeper+Vanilla Cop (on davesaz N1, Hu Tao N2)

Enchant:

?

Thomith:

VT

Hu Tao:

VT

In 2-wolf world:

Duelist Kage

is clear from confirmed Follower information on Elements' N1 action

Elements

is clear from Duelist Kage's Follower results showing that she used JK+Vanilla Cop N1 because Dragon dispensed an invention to Black or Katsuki and remaining wolf would be expected to make a NK

Hu Tao

is clear from Elements' N1 Vanilla Cop because remaining wolf cannot be Vanilla due to confirmed Godfather and dave's claim of receiving wolf's invention showing that the second wolf must also be a Backup

davesaz

is clear from Elements' N2 Vanilla Cop for same?? (waiting on confirmation)

JacksonVirgo

is clear from dispensing an invention to Hu Tao N1 because Dragon dispensed an invention to Black or Katsuki and remaining wolf would be expected to make a NK
Thomith is unsorted
Enchant is unsorted
Gypyx is unsorted

Plan:

Flip Enchant
-----

Kage/dave/Elements/Jackson/Hu/Elements

/Gypyx/Thomith
Duelist Kage uses ModifierCop on Gypyx to confirm she has Lazy modifier rather than Compulsive
davesaz targets Thomith with vig invention
Jackson does something
Gypyx gives Macho to Jackson to confirm wolf count
Hu Tao maybe uses an invention
Elements bloops
-----

Kage/Elements/Jackson/Hu/Elements/

Gypyx
Gypyx remains to be sorted- if dave is still alive he was lying about getting the wolf invention and his gambit is done for- he can't claim to have been protected because we're not going to do that now that we've got all this info out, right?
Kage confirms or refutes Gypyx's modifiers
Jackson confirms whether Gypyx's Macho invention was received to give info on remaining wolves

I know, Jackson is going to want to plan for the 3-wolf world, but I think this is a good start to that at least. Feel free to take it from here.

[JacksonVirgo]

There shouldn't be any more of the vig+bg so I don't think this is necessary, I believe we can just use it to confirm amount of wolves via her Lazy modifier. So best to send it to you?

I try and plan for the worst case scenario so we're stable nmw, we can confirm the amount of wolves without going on me and also securing us against if the wolves do still have the vig vender, which is a win/win. We just have to make sure to not target the same person and we easily confirm the lazy modifier (which was the reasoning behind it) + we secure ourselves against the known wolf PR.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'll wait for Gypyx to respond back to me before I respond to your proposal

[JacksonVirgo]

As like, what I just caught is pretty bad

[Duelist Kage]

If you're more sus of her now, all the more reason for me to check her modifiers to see if it matches her claim.

And if you can confirm the wolf count some other way, cool. My original thought was to give me the Macho because you want it to go to someone scummy and I don't think it's even going to be received because Lazy would kick in, but I didn't expect you to believe me telling you whether or not I got it so it doesn't really resolve the issue.

[JacksonVirgo]

Acknowledging what you said, not ignoring you but I'm waiting on Gypyx so will get back to you on both of those posts

[Duelist Kage]

I guess I did mention I had ModifierCop left

after

she claimed, so she wouldn't have been crafting a claim with the expectation of being able to be caught out with it. If I'd mentioned it before she claimed, it'd be a pretty silly thing to fake.

[JacksonVirgo]

Can I ask your thoughts on Gyp claiming to vend to their biggest SR?

[Gypyx]

Hm wait,

@Gypyx

you said that you scum-read Black. Why did you give Black an invention?

Fruit Vendor is better in the hands of scum than town no? Like, if we manage to reach 1 scum left, it basically confirms if the person is giving a fruit / doing something else

i wasn't super confident on the read still so that's why i gave the FV rather than the compulsive strengthener

[JacksonVirgo]

Hm, that's true yeah that paranoia is gone. We ballin'

[JacksonVirgo]

My thoughts on the ideal actions

1. Lim Enchant
2. Gypyx throws Macho invention to Kage
3. JV throws one of their inventions to someone that isn't Thom/Kage
4. Kage checks Gypyx
5. Hu Tao does what is obvious to do here.
6. Dave shoots Thom
7. Elements does nothing
8. Thom does nothing

I feel this maximises what we have, minimises the risk based on all the uncertainties. Kage getting the macho means that the possible suicide-vends stays off of our PRs / confirmed townies that can still do things. The whole logic surrounding me not trusting you is a non-issue as there's many reasons as to why you wouldn't lie about it even as a wolf.

1. If somebody gets a suicide-vig, they should shoot Kage 100% of the time if they claim to not have received one. This will kill them 100% of the time if they lied, so they won't lie.

2. The investigation I gave Hu Tao is incredibly likely unused or even if it was used last night that wifom is open, and it's a visit-based investigative so even if you do wifom. If the result goes against theirs, then you go down.

I think it's fine. Thoughts?

[Thomith]

If I've missed something (i probably have) let me know and I'll go looking, but why are we assuming all PR's are town?

[Thomith]

Here's what I've got:

Claims

Duelist Kage:

JOAT (Follower on Elements N1, Gunsmith on Black N2, ModifierCop)

Gypyx:

Lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor to Black N2, Cop-Inventor to Black N1, compulsive personal Strengthener, Macho)

JacksonVirgo:

Inventor (?)

davesaz:

VT?

Elements:

JOAT 2xSimple Compulsive Combined Jailkeeper+Vanilla Cop (on davesaz N1, Hu Tao N2)

Enchant:

?

Thomith:

VT

Hu Tao:

VT

In 2-wolf world:

Duelist Kage

is clear from confirmed Follower information on Elements' N1 action

Elements

is clear from Duelist Kage's Follower results showing that she used JK+Vanilla Cop N1 because Dragon dispensed an invention to Black or Katsuki and remaining wolf would be expected to make a NK

Hu Tao

is clear from Elements' N1 Vanilla Cop because remaining wolf cannot be Vanilla due to confirmed Godfather and dave's claim of receiving wolf's invention showing that the second wolf must also be a Backup

davesaz

is clear from Elements' N2 Vanilla Cop for same?? (waiting on confirmation)

JacksonVirgo

is clear from dispensing an invention to Hu Tao N1 because Dragon dispensed an invention to Black or Katsuki and remaining wolf would be expected to make a NK
Thomith is unsorted
Enchant is unsorted
Gypyx is unsorted

Plan:

Flip Enchant
-----

Kage/dave/Elements/Jackson/Hu/Elements

/Gypyx/Thomith
Duelist Kage uses ModifierCop on Gypyx to confirm she has Lazy modifier rather than Compulsive
davesaz targets Thomith with vig invention
Jackson does something
Gypyx gives Macho to Jackson to confirm wolf count
Hu Tao maybe uses an invention
Elements bloops
-----

Kage/Elements/Jackson/Hu/Elements/

Gypyx
Gypyx remains to be sorted- if dave is still alive he was lying about getting the wolf invention and his gambit is done for- he can't claim to have been protected because we're not going to do that now that we've got all this info out, right?
Kage confirms or refutes Gypyx's modifiers
Jackson confirms whether Gypyx's Macho invention was received to give info on remaining wolves

I know, Jackson is going to want to plan for the 3-wolf world, but I think this is a good start to that at least. Feel free to take it from here.

I understand Hu Tao, Dave and Jackson being cleared in this scenario.
I don't understand why Kage and Elements are though. Without multitasking, and with no kill N1, is there not a world where these are scum PRs?