Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[Appearance]

going sightseeing today.
will post more this afternoon.

[DeasVail]

Enjoy!!

[Prism]

Vote Count 2.1

Player	Votes
Klick (1)	DragonEater70 (1114)
DragonEater70 (1)	Klick (1133)
implosion (1)	T3 (1135)
Not Voting (4)	implosion, DeasVail, fireisredsir, Appearance

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-02 12:30:00).

[DragonEater70]

So, let me preface this scum case by saying that yes, a lot of these things happened in the previous day phase so why didn't I scum case Klick for them last day phase? And the answer is that actually the moment the coalition failed I had a strong gut feeling it was Klick, but I also knew deep inside that if Klick was town and I mislimmed him, I would feel completely lost reads wise and have zero motivation to play, so I preferred to let him live another day phase and figure out his alignment based on his Day 2 approach. And so far I'm not impressed with his Day 2 approach at all.

Klick's content state of mind + his weird flip on Kyo slot

Last day phase, we established a coalition build that was Dragon/Klick/DV/App/Elements. There was very little effort to disrupt it, aside maybe from Kyoko's sudden solving closer to deadline which I wouldn't even call disruptive. I reacted to this lack of effort to disrupt by saying I think there's scum in that coalition, whereas Klick was content with the coalition and pushed the idea that scum is in implosion/T3/Kyoko (see 352 mainly). He then doubled down on this and said that he basically thinks the team was implosion/Kyo with a huge level of confidence (see 475). This is already weird because the gamestate seemed to suggest that there was scum in the coalition, and I think Klick may have ignored that because he was the scum in the coalition and did not want to rock the boat.
Another thing regarding this is that in 583, he like acknowledges that there could be scum in the coalition based on how everyone is content, but then never really does anything with it?
Then, a coalition with Kyo in it passed. Now if Klick's reads were "I'm fine with any coalition that isn't imp/Kyo" (475), I'd expect him to, well, continue that train of thought considering that a coalition with Kyo failed. Instead, he somehow starts TRing BOTH of these slots due to the coalition failing, even though he had them as partners before that???? Or actually, what's even worse, he is TRing fireisred for scumreading me even though at that point he was very strongly townreading me (see 714). My thought is that maybe he decided it would be a good idea to position himself to misfade me on Day 2, which is what he is trying to do right now.

Klick's fake sorting of me

Klick was

heavily

townreading me last day phase (714. Also implied in 787). Like he decided to sheep me on a coalition instead of trusting his own reads + the other posts I linked here. Oh and 991. Also, and this is important, Klick had been acting like he feels

extremely confident in his ability to read me as a player

, aside from the fact that he TR'd me this game (can't refer you to a specific post here, but like skim his ISO and it's obvious).
So, with this attitude, I'd expect Klick to do one of two things going into this day phase:
Either (1), continue to mostly TR me, knowing that he can read me, and let me lurk in quiet. Klick knows that I am not a lurker usually and therefore he should expect that within a reasonable time frame I would go back to participating so that he can read me off of organic content. And since he TRs me anyway he wouldn't really need much, just a boost for the TR.
OR, (2), feel distrustful of me after he had decided he townreads firesiredsir for a good reason and was shocked to see that Dunn flipped town (neither of which make sense here, because as you see in 975, 998, Klick is supposedly townleaning fireisred but wary of her). But even if it did make sense, in this scenario a town!Klick would use a vastly different approach to sorting me, IMO. I don't know if the correct word is aggressive, or pointed, or meaningful or smart, but Klick's sorting of me this day phase definitely lacks it. Klick mentioned he believed I am the sort of player that has trouble being aggressively towny as scum. Asking my opinion on such a mild and inconsequential thing as fucking GOB'S DEATH is not going to help him sort me in any freaking universe, that's super easy to talk about as scum. Klick claims he thinks speculating about the death is "the towny way to react" to the situation, but again, gob was freaking the lowest info kill possible and the least surprising kill IMO. Who did he expect scum to kill? implo, who is vastly scumread? Myself, despite coming under fire repeatedly yesterday and losing my "consensus town" status? gob is a perfectly ordinary, uninteresting kill.

Then, I don't answer him and he gets annoyed, but it's fake annoyance:

Yet again, Prism delivers awesome flavor.

I am declaring my intent to lurk in the shadows today until my reads resolidify.

Since you've dropped your background context, what do you think about the gob kill, DragonEater?

I'm annoyed that Dragon asked a question about this question but then didn't give a response

Not only did I not ask a question that would indicate I think it might be an interesting or good question (I literally asked "WDYM?"), so like wtf does me asking a question have to do with me answering, but literally 4 posts before this one I indicated that I was busy and couldn't answer. So why get so annoyed? I didn't call Klick out for putting his kids to sleep while I was waiting for his answer of which coalition he'd prefer. Then what's more outrageous is that Klick somehow contrives that it's possibly scum indicative for me not to answer, despite having a much more egregious instance of postponing answers to a "one line question" (as fireisred put it) as town in our last game together.
I just don't think this is a real thought process town!Klick would ever have.

Finally, his scumread on me after the whole exchange is just laughable:

D&D is finished

I have no idea how it's concerning that I would have time for a quick question but not for an answer that probably requires thought.

I think it requiring thought is more likely to come from scum than town

Liar.

You stopped asking 'why' and have locked yourself into an opinion on how and why I'm approaching this situation the way I am

I am specifically concerned that you needed time to fabricate a sensible response to everyone having a different reaction to gob's death than you (expected)

How is me having stopped asking 'why' and locking myself into an opinion scum indicative in any way??? And why would Klick even think I'm trying to buy time when I EXPLICITLY had a real life reason not to answer straight away?

[DragonEater70]

Apologies for wallpost

That said

while writing it I came to doubt my scumread on Klick

so, IDK, it's 1:03 AM so I should probably go to sleep and decide what I think tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

Dang it actually took me an entire hour to write it

[Klick]

I don't have much to say
A lot of analysis but it either doesn't reach the conclusion of 'and so Klick is scum' or is based on false reads of my personality/perspective
At best the conclusion is 'I don't understand what Klick is doing' and any harder claims than that feel unsubstantiated and lacking in seeking potential answers to the things that seem to be confusing you

[DragonEater70]

Unvote me, Klick

[fireisredsir]

Apologies for wallpost

That said

while writing it I came to doubt my scumread on Klick

so, IDK, it's 1:03 AM so I should probably go to sleep and decide what I think tomorrow.

if you haven't gone to sleep yet im curious if you can walk through your current thought process/mindstate on what led you to doubt. since it isn't really visible in the post

[Klick]

Unvote me, Klick

y

[DragonEater70]

Ummm

For one, the thing where Klick said "that's the town way to react" reminded me of another game where he'd said that (as town).

There was probably another thing but I don't think I can properly describe it at this hour of the night.

[DragonEater70]

Unvote me, Klick

y

Maybe I'm tunneled but I think town!you would know why

[DragonEater70]

For one, the thing where Klick said "that's the town way to react" reminded me of another game where he'd said that (as town).

I do think it's strange that sky thought I was scum because I seemed confused about her Dragon TR. I'm not sure why she wouldn't just say right then that she thought 13 was a townslip

Putting me at e-1 and keeping it there after I pointed it out doesn't feel great either

i felt like DE70's townslip was kind of obvious and i felt like the fact that you hadn't picked up on it was scum indicative. i didn't realize it was e1 but i wasnt too bothered by it either tbh.

My first thought upon seeing it was that it was in 'possibly intentional' territory

I do think it's strange that sky thought I was scum because I seemed confused about her Dragon TR. I'm not sure why she wouldn't just say right then that she thought 13 was a townslip

Putting me at e-1 and keeping it there after I pointed it out doesn't feel great either

i felt like DE70's townslip was kind of obvious and i felt like the fact that you hadn't picked up on it was scum indicative. i didn't realize it was e1 but i wasnt too bothered by it either tbh.

My first thought upon seeing it was that it was in 'possibly intentional' territory

Same

I just wanna say that Aureal is a freaking QUEEN for making this game

I mean my role is a freaking gladiator!

This pinged the fuck out of me. I typed up a reply with a vote but then thought I better check the vote count. Since he's E-2 already I'm holding off for now.

Was this just the town way to read that post then

[DragonEater70]

Goodnight

[Appearance]

gth dragon is prob still town.

[fireisredsir]

im feeling a little lost rn

this is around the time of day i usually talk to people but i think due to timezones in this list that doesn't happen

i guess deas should probably awake. deas are you around? i am interested in more elaboration on your thoughts

[fireisredsir]

i definitely didn't just try to google "deasvail time" to check what time it is there

[DragonEater70]

Alright, let me spell it out for you Klick:
You should unvote me because I am mega obvtown, and if you are town you should know that.

[DragonEater70]

Appearance is also pretty fucking town, in the same under-the-radar way that Elements was town.

[implosion]

I don't want to eliminate appearance anymore. I'm not usually one to analyse kills in great depth but I don't think the gob kill happens if gob was totally wrong. If gob was wrong on his reads, then leave him alive, let him steamroll through his pool or draw the ire of the rest of the town and get eliminated. As scum, I would NOT be expecting the town to sheep dead-gob, so all the more reason to.

Now, it is slightly problematic that gob's pool included 3 people on the coalition, but the fact is that gob clearly didn't want Appearance gone and so I don't either.

I... think I might need to just go for fireisred. There is nothing wrong with their play. They are totally reasonable and full of that townie goodness and all that, but with a lack of other options I feel good about, that is no longer really enough. Throughout my day of thinking anout the game I have swayed a little on DragonEater. There would be something satisfying about Dragon being scum, but I'm still not actually sure that this is it. There is a slight "unhinged" quality to Dragon's play at times that I think would be difficult to fake, whereas fireisred... I could see it?

Elsewhere, I do kind of like that implosion went a bit against the grain on DragonEater by calling him town for what I thought were good reasons.

I do want to be open-minded and so am interested to see where Klick goes on that read. After all, gob called Dragon scum too, but I'm not sure that I see it.

I feel this post pretty strongly.

I've read the Klick case and my biggest hangup on Klick-scum is just that I don't know if their scumrange is especially big - I'm still inclined to believe Klick as scum just wouldn't be able to have lead in coalition forming the particular way they did. I'm inclined right now to default to fire being scum, similar to the sentiment Klick is outlining here, in that everyone else on coalition feels harder and I think fire has been town but iirc they have a pretty wide scumrange. I expect Dragon has a pretty wide scumrange as well but all the little aspects of their play just feel like earnest town too, things like 1149 and the wallpost followed by immediately saying that writing the wallpost raised some apprehension on the Klick scumread are maybe the kinds of things I am more inclined to townread than I should be but I feel it all fits cohesively in a world where Dragon is town.

I think the Klick case paints a very reasonable portrait of Klick's potential scum motivations for various aspects of play but parts of it do feel tunnelly/uncharitable.

[implosion]

(and I think the reasons to think Klick is town outweigh the possible cohesive narrative of some of the things Klick has done making sense as coming from scum)

[DragonEater70]

Currently the only solves that make sense to me are implo/fire, implo/Klick, and Klick/fire. Would be happy to vote any of these.

Pedit: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am not sure what to make of this post by implo considering my own post. I'll get back to this after work probably.

[Klick]

while i'm looking, @dragon, what do you think the major differences are between your alignments, if any? how do you think differently? i feel like you can give a pretty good answer to this question

Did you ever actually answer this Dragon? I can't find one and it's now very relevant

I'm getting 'I am mega obvtown', but I'm not getting the why outside of what I've already thought about

[Klick]

Something just feels really off about fire as the answer.

I think I'm struggling with the idea that if Dragon/Appearance are both town then this game really should have been a win at coalition, and I've talked myself into the D1 narrative not supporting the idea that we swapped from a pass to a fail.

[Klick]

That combined with fire coming in and leaning town, and Dragon getting hypocritical and reactive