Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[DragonEater70]

And if you mean to elaborate on why the gamestate seemed to suggest that, I think I explained it very well previously. implosion, who was both my and Klick's top scumread at the time, seemed like he was content with waiting until after the coalition failed to push me. If he was scum, this behavior didn't make sense unless there was scum in the coaliton. If he was town then that meant the team was either T3/Kyo (very unlikely), or there was scum in the coaliton anyway. That's actually one of the things that initially made me tinfoil a Klick/implo team.

[DeasVail]

I think I’m going to ask klick and Dragon to stop fighting

VOTE: fireisredsir

[DeasVail]

Something I liked about dragon’s play Day 1 was that there seemed to be a genuine conflict between him wanting his page 7 solve to be correct and him wanting his page x solve to be correct

[DragonEater70]

I think I’m going to ask klick and Dragon to stop fighting

VOTE: fireisredsir

DV is such a sweetheart. And tbh if the scum team is Klick/DV, I'd happily lose the game.

Also I'll stop fighting with Klick if he apologizes. Yes, it's childish. But I feel entitled to being childish here, because Klick is also being childish in scumreading me for not prioritizing his questions over real life (yes, that's VERY childish of me. Sorry about that, need to get this out of my system. Also Klick should know that regardless of anything I am saying here I actually like him very much as a person and I'm just being salty).

Something I liked about dragon’s play Day 1 was that there seemed to be a genuine conflict between him wanting his page 7 solve to be correct and him wanting his page x solve to be correct

What is my page x solve? Or like what exactly are you referencing here?

[Klick]

You're misunderstanding my actual scumread on you
I'm sure I've stated clearly by now that it had very little to do with you choosing to play DnD over answering my question and much more to do with your lack of reaction to gob's death in the first place
I apologise if you think that's what I was saying but like I'm far from an advocate of prioritising this over IRL

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

I feel like it's healthy to explore all the coalition options here

[DragonEater70]

Right but saying that I needed time to formulate a convincing answer implies that you thought I lied about my motivation for not answering.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:

I feel like it's healthy to explore all the coalition options here

I feel that's a really weird sentence to accompany that unvote.

Didn't you vote me in the first place because you wanted to explore all coalition options here?

[Klick]

I think this is a grey area in which I think you could be scum wanting time to answer AND be playing DnD with your friends and both of these things could be true without conflict or ethical issue imo

It's a small piece of evidence towards a larger point which is that I am suspect of your interaction around the gob death

[DragonEater70]

Why is my lack of speculation about gob's death suspect

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

I feel like it's healthy to explore all the coalition options here

I feel that's a really weird sentence to accompany that unvote.

Didn't you vote me in the first place because you wanted to explore all coalition options here?

Partially yes

[DragonEater70]

Do you think that all town players approach NKA the same way

[Klick]

Why is my lack of speculation about gob's death suspect

Because I found the death strange and thought the natural town reaction would be to find the death strange
Strange deaths sometimes happen because the Mafia have a different read on the situation than the rest of the game
And so it wouldn't be strange to them, it would make plenty of sense, after all they chose it

[Klick]

No

[DragonEater70]

I disagree that it was a strange death. I think any other death would be strange. T3 wasn't widely TR'd or influential. implosion not only wasn't TR'd or influential but was scumread. DV I guess was like an okay kill but again not that widely townread after the coalition failed I think. If DV died then it could be analyzed as you likely not being scum (due to DV being a strong defender of yours), so FYPOV DV is a bad kill for scum because they'd want you misfaded. So I don't think DV qualifies as the epitome of a low-info kill and neither does he qualify as the epitome of a widely-townread kill.
Everyone else was in the coalition and shouldn't be killed unless scum was extremely ballsy and decided they could confidently miselim both other coaliton players after killing someone in the coalition.
gob on the other hand was widely TR'd due to Elements, was scumreading everyone in the coalition (no info), and I guess could be spun into a fear kill by myself (though nobody has done it so I guess scum weren't really thinking of that).

[DragonEater70]

Actually sorry, DV wouldn't be a bad kill necessarily but it would be an info-inducing kill. I guess killing your defebder isn't bad at all.

[DragonEater70]

And personality I think low-info kills are preferred in coalitoon games because of the nature of the lim pool. See Coalition of Frogs for an example of a particularly egregious N1 low info kill.

[DragonEater70]

Can you explain to me the progression from a massive TR on me to top SR, which according to what you have posted so far is based ONLY on my reaction to gob's death? Like does a different reaction ping you THAT MUCH that you'd completely abandon your previous read? Or were there more elements to it which you haven't expressed?

[DragonEater70]

Whatever

UNVOTE: Klick

Goodnight.

[Klick]

Can you explain to me the progression from a massive TR on me to top SR, which according to what you have posted so far is based ONLY on my reaction to gob's death? Like does a different reaction ping you THAT MUCH that you'd completely abandon your previous read? Or were there more elements to it which you haven't expressed?

It's less 'you're my top scumread based only on the gob's death reaction' and more 'this has really pinged me and I want to explore the possibility that my townread on you is inaccurate'
I abandoned an overall opinion on you for the moment in favor of putting weight towards a new finding
If the new finding was explainable from town!Dragon and made sense, I can map that onto what I already have for town!Dragon
If the new finding was not explainable from town!Dragon or didn't make sense, I might need to reeval more generally

All evidence points to the correct conclusion looked at under the right lens
I'm taking different lenses and trying to make sense of them

[fireisredsir]

dragon, what are your thoughts on a potential scum!klick's motivations for relinquishing control of the coalition vote to you?

[DeasVail]

I initially thought the gob death was strange but when I thought about it I realised that for most scum teams it probably made more sense than other options. Which unfortunately means that I’m likely to be quite forgiving of all sorts of reactions to gob’s death

[DeasVail]

I think I’m going to ask klick and Dragon to stop fighting

VOTE: fireisredsir

DV is such a sweetheart. And tbh if the scum team is Klick/DV, I'd happily lose the game.

Also I'll stop fighting with Klick if he apologizes. Yes, it's childish. But I feel entitled to being childish here, because Klick is also being childish in scumreading me for not prioritizing his questions over real life (yes, that's VERY childish of me. Sorry about that, need to get this out of my system. Also Klick should know that regardless of anything I am saying here I actually like him very much as a person and I'm just being salty).

Something I liked about dragon’s play Day 1 was that there seemed to be a genuine conflict between him wanting his page 7 solve to be correct and him wanting his page x solve to be correct

What is my page x solve? Or like what exactly are you referencing here?

By page x I mean whatever page the game happened to be on at the time :p

And I didn’t mean “fighting” as in truly fighting. I just think Fire is the best way to go atm

[implosion]

Something just feels really off about fire as the answer.

I think I'm struggling with the idea that if Dragon/Appearance are both town then this game really should have been a win at coalition, and I've talked myself into the D1 narrative not supporting the idea that we swapped from a pass to a fail.

Remind me what is about the narrative that you believe doesn't support this? I feel like the narrative of how we actually ended up at the coalition that happened is more or less fiat of Dragon. And (if Dragon is town) then that fiat was influenced by people's opinions but it was ultimately a fiat.

[implosion]

the issue i have with that part is that i wasn't really convinced that he was truly having doubts. it's easy to post a case and then say you have doubts, but generally with a town player writing a case who begins to have doubts while writing it, you will feel those doubts start to creep in to the case itself

I don't think this would be true of Dragon town. I think Dragon is probably the kind of player who has real conviction while writing something, then takes a step back while out of the mindset of writing it and has (or doesn't have) second thoughts. Or (as he mentioned) who would be very performative about a scumread, but also will step back and re-examine things or allow some room for doubt if/when he thinks he's supposed to.

I think the reason I feel the doubts are townish is that it makes his plan/trajectory today complex, whereas if he's scum it seems like he just wants to be wrestling with Klick, though I guess this is theoretically something scum could do as an off-ramp.

fire is town. I feel and have felt incredibly in-sync with him and would be shocked if he's scum. I have thought many of the same things that he has thought on multiple different occasions and there have been certain things that I've thought but not said in thread but then that he's said in thread

Could you name some of these things?