Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[implosion]

I don't really agree with Dragon's reasons for fire being scum but I do think fire is the best lim, though pretty much purely for PoE. So I guess I think fire is the best lim for the reasons that fire thinks they're an okay lim, which actually might be a thing fire posts more frequently as scum than as town. I'm not like excited by it though and I'm very unexcited by what tomorrow looks like if it's wrong, especially if T3 is town. I do think if he flips scum I'd probably just want T3 next though if he flips town it might mean T3 is town given how T3 is playing today.

I'm feeling detached from the game right now, kind of for RL reasons but mostly because I feel like my d1 reads are all just bad as a result of Dunn being town + the gob nk and I sort of feel broadly not that invested/like the remaining coalition members are kind of a blob except for Dragon.

[fireisredsir]

fireisred, what time is it in the land of crimson flame? Because I think your time might be up but I am too charitable so I'm willing to give you a bit more time if you really need it.

idk i don't see why voting matters unless you think we're going to end day right away

maybe we are but i don't really see why we would do that

im content to like continue trying to solve and then later y'all lim me anyway if you want to do that

[fireisredsir]

i am around now but also eepy

[fireisredsir]

So I guess I think fire is the best lim for the reasons that fire thinks they're an okay lim, which actually might be a thing fire posts more frequently as scum than as town.

i don't think id let myself end up in this position as scum and i am frequently in it as town

[fireisredsir]

although i do understand that its like kinda surface level scummy/lamist/whatever but it's also just true

[fireisredsir]

but anyway one thing that i wanted to talk about was where my doubts on klick were coming from earlier

which mostly was that i feel like me and klick tend to approach games in fairly similar ways and have fairly similar mindsets and overnight it was nagging at me a little bit the way that klick concluded the day yesterday. i think because it felt like his process was what i expected but he was coming to different conclusions. particularly 991. i just found it hard to believe that klick town sees things that way, because i was looking for the same things and came away with the opposite conclusion

and 1001 felt concerningly like what i think scum klick may do if me/dragon was tvt and he wanted to push it aside for later and take the "easy" lim in dunn/appearance

what i was feeling at the time was that i thought town klick would be more likely to see things i was seeing about dragon, unless he had been successfully pocketed. as im reading again and writing about this now though, i kind of think it's more likely to be town indicative, since he would be more likely to be not trusting of my arguments if he thinks im potential scum. if he's scum who knows im town, it seems likely that he'd be more accommodating towards me to get on my side

then at the start of d2, in the moment i was reallllly sketched out a bit by 1131 and 1133. idk. it just felt a lot to me like exactly what i had been concerned about in a potential scum!klick, which was to save me and dragon for later and then buddy up to me against dragon. and particularly the soul read comment felt off (reading it now, idk, maybe it wasn't 100% serious?) because that seemed like a pretty obvious line of logic so it didn't make sense to have that reaction to it. the vote also felt like it was an attempt to directly appease me

however

1219 puts the actions in a context that do make more sense to me as a town!klick approach. i think it's possible this is a narrative that was assigned retroactively, but it is a pretty believable one

i do think there's a lot of things klick have done that its hard for me to see him doing as scum. i definitely disagree with dragon's argument that there was little risk for him to hand off control of the coalition vote. that's a big one for me

[fireisredsir]

i guess im back to just thinking it's dragon after more thoroughly considering the klick world

i had some periods of doubt on appearance but part of me feels like the fact that nobody seems to be considering him makes me feel like he is kinda being overall tmi'd by someone as town

the legendary threadspew... could it be

[fireisredsir]

i think if dragon is scum i would definitely rule out klick as a partner

and. that's maybe it

[fireisredsir]

ah hm actually

[fireisredsir]

idk if i have the energy to explain in detail but dragon/dv is actually making a ton of sense to me rn

[fireisredsir]

ok idk why i had been putting off looking at this again for so long and ive just been like sitting in a puddle of zero wim sorry about that

i was gonna go to sleep but i want to put this out there while its fresh on my mind. i know now it's probably too late so whatever my bad but hear me out

the thing that really never made sense to me about dragon being scum was the end of coalition forming. he had a lot of what felt like towny energy, and was just all over the place, and it didn't make sense to me bc i didn't see why any of that benefited scum or made sense at all coming from a scum approach to the game. it just really felt like town unsure what direction to go

but!

we know from dragon scum games that he actually has that kind of energy a lot of the time as scum. see these kind of posts from fruit mafia scum pt:

Spoiler:

Subject: Micro 1090: Fruit Mafia - Vegetable Chat

I know which is why we lim them today.

OR, we lim Skitter and tomorrow I claim cop with N1 inno on Datisi and N2 inno on you and we ignore atsi pushing me.

It's a really risky strat but it is still a valid one.

It's pretty bold and also probably anti-wincon for scum which is why I would get hella townread for doing it out the gate.

Okay I just came up with the best freaking idea for a fake claim

Like I think it's pretty risky but it's funny as hell and I think if I pull it off well then Datisi and Skitter would absolutely eat it up.

We lim atsi, nightkill Ausuka, then I say I viggied her because I realized her miller claim must be fake, and also the reason I town read Skitter so hard D1 is I was sure Skitter was a cop and that's why they TR'd Ausuka for claiming miller, but D2 I realized Skitter wasn't a cop so my TR of her dropped and it made me realize there's probably no cop so Ausuka is fakeclaiming.

Idk if this makes any sense whatsoever, it's probably a horrible strat, but it's so damn funny to think about and I don't see Datisi going "yeah that's scum" but rather "oh I guess that makes sense"

And the banana peel thing would justify why scum didn't kill.

K the more I think about it the worse it sounds but I still want to try it if circumstances allow it.

But I was thinking about killing Datisi rolecopping Skitt and if they are VT (which I'm 95% sure they are) pocket them by saying I was sure they were cop the whole time (I actually have a good explanation of why I would think that), which would

probably

make me seem extremely uninformed. And then I just lament Datisi's death and sheep Skitter and it's GG.

Spoiler:

my prediction is that your response would be something like "we don't need to do that, we extremely well positioned, etc."
But the point is whether or not we kill Dats.

I'll tell you what, I really want to No Kill and frame it as Skitter trying to kill Datisi but getting roleblocked by the banana that Infinity planted. But I can't think of any believable claim to justify why we would know that Datisi was the NK target.

Ao first, do you like the idea? And second, can you think of any claim?

Otherwise we might beed to just kill Datisi, as unfortunate as that would be.

like absolutely wild ideas, and they just keep pouring out while ari is just in there like "uhhhh i don't think we need to do that"

he hasn't had that kind of chaotic over-planning energy in every scum game but it's definitely in there somewhere. and in this game, where he was largely in a good position, widely townread, etc etc, it doesn't seem like there would be the the kind of pressure that would induce that kind of behavior

except... for if he gets asked to choose the coalition. that alone might not do it. but what i think would cause that kind of genuine level of stress and confusion over which direction to go, would be if he is pushed into a place where he has to make a decision between keeping his partner in and keeping his partner out, while also making it believably look like a town thought process

here's the general progression in the last day or so of coalition forming:

Spoiler:

HEAL: DeasVail, Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance

HURT: all

Don't want this hammered before I see what Elements thinks andDV's additional thoughts

Okay that sells it for me

HURT: DV/Klick
HEAL: Ydrasse

I really want to heal Kyo. Can somebody explain why she's scum actually?

Oh I forgot I wasn't healing them



I think it's clear what I meant to do

HURT: all
HEAL: Elements, Ydra, Dragon, Appearance

For the last time (hopefully),
HURT: all

Whoever I heal from now on will remain healed forever and ever.

There's also the fact that she actually feels like she cares a lot more than DV feels like he cares, tbh. Like Klick you said you TR DV because he cares but literally every post Kyo made since 360 feels like she really cares and is genuinely trying to solve here and doesn't want to get it wrong. She could have easily just gone with Appearance but didn't.

Pedit: I get why you're annoyed. I think either of implo/T3 or implo/DV are more likely than implo/Kyo tbh.

Alright Klick

I have an idea

You said your hard PoE is Kyo/T3/implo

What do you say about a coal of dragon/app/el/dv/ydra?

Then I won't have the paranoia about you and I am even going to as far as to say I will town lock you if it fails, if it's any consolation.

Pedit: no Klick is just too towny I can't resist having him in the coalition

See the problem is everyone except implo and T3 is really towny

And I am kinda refusing to believe the game is just this easy, though maybe it really is this easy.

It's funny Klick that I feel if Bella was in your slot I would have had so much easier time being confident in my town read of your slot. I mean it's funny because I was thinking about her without making the connection in my mind.

Ugh

I wanna sleep

Should I just hammer? Assuming Klick re-votes.

Meh

If I had another full day or two I might have gone somewhere different but I kinda want to hammer

BUT

Maybe let's do this instead:

Kyo/app/klick/ydra/dragon?

Unfortunate






HURT: all
HEAL: Ydra/Dragon/Klick/Appearance

Um

Elements, Kyo, or DV?

I'm actually going to throw a die here

Okay it landed on Elements

HEAL: Elements

Pedit: yes

HURT: Elements
HEAL: Kyo

Okay seriously I need to sleep and if this fails then it fails

It's just a game

Goodnight

Feel free to either sheep this or tell Kyo to hammer the other one. Klick is in charge.

i think the pattern here looks pretty close to how i would expect it to look if scum dragon were debating on whether or not to go for one of those risky gambit type plays, if his partner is among [dv, klick, kyo, elements]

i think it doesn't make any sense at all paired with t3 or implosion, bc they were never really in the conversation. but any of those, i could see it happening. and i don't think he's paired with klick. so that leaves DV

and generally i think DV's approach here does fit really well with having a partner who is widely townread and basically a lock for the coalition

AND dragon fits the very stereotypical scum coalition pattern of: initially amplify townreads on partner to get both in a good position, then when one of you is widely townread, scumread your partner to push them out, and then basically forget about the scumread as soon as coalition passes

i think thats one of the biggest things standing out to me right now actually. the shift in approach from dragon between when coalition was forming and now is massive. at that point, everything was about overall gamestate, analyzing teams, working with poes, generally trying to look as towny as possible. but now i don't get the impression that he's trying to solve the game as a whole at all. there's been multiple instances where it's felt like he's pointedly ignored considering who could be the partner of the person he's pushing. it's just a completely different way of looking at the game, and yes, the gamestate has changed, but if you look at for example t3/implo/klick, the way they're currently solving still feels like the same general approach they had earlier in the game, and i think that comes from a town mindset of genuinely wanting to solve the game

[fireisredsir]

sorry for long messy post i don't even really think anyone is going to find this as compelling as i do but it makes a lot of sense to me and i can talk more tomorrow goodnight

if you lim me then probably don't sheep me after but at least read what im saying and heavily consider it please thanks

[DeasVail]

idk if i have the energy to explain in detail but dragon/dv is actually making a ton of sense to me rn

Now that you mention it I do actually think dragon's posts @ and about me are weirdly partner-y but I know I'm not scum with him and it's probably going a bit too deep down the rabbit-hole to think that Dragon was intentionally making partnery posts at me (I kind of think in a Dragon/Me world, Dragon would not be planning for his elimination)

[DeasVail]

wait that doesn't make sense

I think I had it in my mind that Dragon was probably not going to be planning for his elimination here and then thought about a hypothetical world where dragon was scum with me and got my head all muddled.

[DragonEater70]

fireisred, what time is it in the land of crimson flame? Because I think your time might be up but I am too charitable so I'm willing to give you a bit more time if you really need it.

idk i don't see why voting matters unless you think we're going to end day right away

maybe we are but i don't really see why we would do that

im content to like continue trying to solve and then later y'all lim me anyway if you want to do that

Well I'm kinda feeling like you might bw limmed but maybe that's just me reading the gamestate incorrectly.

[DragonEater70]

but anyway one thing that i wanted to talk about was where my doubts on klick were coming from earlier

which mostly was that i feel like me and klick tend to approach games in fairly similar ways and have fairly similar mindsets and overnight it was nagging at me a little bit the way that klick concluded the day yesterday. i think because it felt like his process was what i expected but he was coming to different conclusions. particularly 991. i just found it hard to believe that klick town sees things that way, because i was looking for the same things and came away with the opposite conclusion

and 1001 felt concerningly like what i think scum klick may do if me/dragon was tvt and he wanted to push it aside for later and take the "easy" lim in dunn/appearance

what i was feeling at the time was that i thought town klick would be more likely to see things i was seeing about dragon, unless he had been successfully pocketed. as im reading again and writing about this now though, i kind of think it's more likely to be town indicative, since he would be more likely to be not trusting of my arguments if he thinks im potential scum. if he's scum who knows im town, it seems likely that he'd be more accommodating towards me to get on my side

then at the start of d2, in the moment i was reallllly sketched out a bit by 1131 and 1133. idk. it just felt a lot to me like exactly what i had been concerned about in a potential scum!klick, which was to save me and dragon for later and then buddy up to me against dragon. and particularly the soul read comment felt off (reading it now, idk, maybe it wasn't 100% serious?) because that seemed like a pretty obvious line of logic so it didn't make sense to have that reaction to it. the vote also felt like it was an attempt to directly appease me

however

1219 puts the actions in a context that do make more sense to me as a town!klick approach. i think it's possible this is a narrative that was assigned retroactively, but it is a pretty believable one

i do think there's a lot of things klick have done that its hard for me to see him doing as scum. i definitely disagree with dragon's argument that there was little risk for him to hand off control of the coalition vote. that's a big one for me

I disagree with the colored text. I found Klick surprisingly accomodating of you reads despite allegedly scumreading you, which is a big thing that pinged me about him.

[DragonEater70]

fire weren't you scumreading me a moment ago though

how come you are talking about Klick as if he's your bigger SR

[DragonEater70]

I did really hate 1131 though

fml can you both stop having good reasons to be either town or scum

It's really annoying me

[DragonEater70]

imp and T3, I'm gonna need a favor of you:

How likely do you think the scumteam is to be Klick/DV?

[T3]

I do think if he flips scum I'd probably just want T3 next though if he flips town it might mean T3 is town given how T3 is playing today.

This is so bad

[T3]

VOTE: Dragon

[T3]

dunno if the team is dragon/implo

I'm more convinced on Dragon being scum than implo being scum at this point

[T3]

I was reading through an old towngame I had with fire!scum and I realized that there were a few things in that game that I mindmelded with fire on there too

fuck

[T3]

Actually he made an effort to actively pocket me in that game but he didn't do so here

[fireisredsir]

fire weren't you scumreading me a moment ago though

how come you are talking about Klick as if he's your bigger SR

your whole point earlier was that i was scum bc i was sitting on the fence too much and kept being unsure who was scum between you and klick, so idk why this is confusing to you

i hadn't really explicitly talked about what my doubts were on klick and so i thought it would be useful to do that both bc then i could better see for myself if i felt they were valid and also so that i don't feel dumb for having died without saying them

but then over the course of writing that post i started to lean towards thinking the doubts weren't that significant compared to the towny things i feel klick has done