Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN

[Gypyx]

I think the thing that was weird with this setup is that town actually had to do a lot of the heavy lifting rather than scum being the ones needing to outplay

[Hu Tao]

I think us not realizing scum couldn't kill is what hurt us the most early game. Then it became very mechanical toward the end. But I really enjoyed it

[Gypyx]

There's a couple of things I'd like to say about the balance. First off, it was probably a fair bit imperfect; perhaps 13p would have been more appropriate after all, and I don't believe adjusting further would've been necessary (in fact, that would have probably been townsided; if this game lasted another Day, I think Village would have almost surely won). Another musing could be to remove the lazy mod entirely, but then a very awkward situation would happen if only one wolf remained unable to kill.

While I still believe the game was reasonably balanced, for some value of reasonably, it was notably extremely night-oriented, and as such it did heavily punish night actions going badly. The setup contained a pretty considerable number of safeguards to mess with the wolf-given guns; namely, an half-BP, an activated ascetic (which could avoid getting the gun in the first place, or worst case scenario turn a kamikaze shot into just a loyal vig); both were killed off before being able to do anything. Most of all, Gypyx's role was intended as a crucial cornerstone for endgame, but didn't end up working; the fact is that the comp. Strengthener could work as both a delayed RB, and as a way to magically turn a combined Vig/BG into just a Vig; and Macho could be used to much the same effect, but with a faster timing (if a Macho-Inventor and a combined Vig/BG target the same player, that player dies and the BG survives, since the Macho shot, being passive, would use itself immediately). In particular, if today

anyone at all

(except HT) had the Strengthener invention, the game wouldn't have ended.

the problem was that a lot of the thing that needed to be done by town looked like stuff that was pretty unimportant

for instance, the macho / strengthener were the 2 strongest part of my role but it's hard to realize that until very (too) late

kage's role likewise had the modifier cop as it's best part and guess what? it's also the action that looked the most useless

town also lacked some "guaranteed" utility, like, something that could work even if we didn't figure out the mechanics to the best of our ability

[Duelist Kage]

Yeah like, we had to rely on a wolf to tell us how the setup worked. And still missed enough vital info to figure out what to do.

[Hu Tao]

I didn't use detective night 2 cause I thought it would be strong late game. But it ended up being useless by the time I realized it

[Duelist Kage]

I have got to remember that bianco expects town to play to a setup that they do not have knowledge of and her games are balanced accordingly.

[JacksonVirgo]

That seems a little uncalled for

[Gypyx]

let's just stay constructive

[Duelist Kage]

I think from previous experience with her design and her commentary during the game it's very accurate. She doesn't take into account what the

expected

reaction would be in an uninformed perspective and designs out of fear of town playing like they understand things from the get-go. And calling me/Gamma out for wasting Gunsmith on Black (yes, Gamma had set that action already and I went along with it) is kind of a slap in the face.

[Gypyx]

bianco, what i'd advise you is like, if you wanna keep designing games like this with strong concepts but few public info, take 5 roles at random (including VTs) and from that info ask yourself "can i reasonably figure out what's going on with these flips"

[biancospino]

I think from previous experience with her design and her commentary during the game it's very accurate. She doesn't take into account what the

expected

reaction would be in an uninformed perspective and designs out of fear of town playing like they understand things from the get-go. And calling me/Gamma out for wasting Gunsmith on Black (yes, Gamma had set that action already and I went along with it) is kind of a slap in the face.

Just to be clar, that wasn't supposed to be a callout, more like a statement that "this unfortunate thing happened, what bad luck"

[biancospino]

bianco, what i'd advise you is like, if you wanna keep designing games like this with strong concepts but few public info, take 5 roles at random (including VTs) and from that info ask yourself "can i reasonably figure out what's going on with these flips"

See that's probably a good advice but I'm not sure I'm good enough to follow it. Because, the problem is oftentimes I may think the answer is yes, but only because I'm to biased too be entirely honest with myself, since obviously I do actually know the setup

[Gypyx]

bianco, what i'd advise you is like, if you wanna keep designing games like this with strong concepts but few public info, take 5 roles at random (including VTs) and from that info ask yourself "can i reasonably figure out what's going on with these flips"

See that's probably a good advice but I'm not sure I'm good enough to follow it. Because, the problem is oftentimes I may think the answer is yes, but only because I'm to biased to be entirely honest with myself, since obviously I do actually know the setup

well, you can always try asking someone else but of course that requires some organisation

[Duelist Kage]

Like, apparently I was supposed to be the most powerful PR here but the info I got was largely useless because roles were so all over the place. I got a follower result on scum but it gave me the opposite impression. I got a gunsmith result on non-scum but it gave me the opposite impression. I got a modifier cop on non-scum and it was ambiguous and I just had to pray that the order actually did matter. The game is littered with false positive potential even after you do have a grasp of what you're supposed to be looking for, which isn't going to be for some time, if ever. I'd say I'm more comfortable with mech than average but still got tripped up missing a detail or two that were absolutely vital. It's not a great feeling.

[biancospino]

I'll admit, it's more than possible that I may have overextimated your role's utility. In retrospect it's probably less powerful than I had tought; you're probably right that I should've give you something less error prone

[biancospino]

LINKS:

mod PT:

viewtopic.php?t=92098

wolf lair:

viewtopic.php?t=92099

gadget hood:

viewtopic.php?t=92101

lichyard:

viewtopic.php?t=92102

Gamma Emerald's notes:

viewtopic.php?t=92110

Gamma's notes PT is now also released.

[Gypyx]

and he even puts it as his signature

unbelivable

[JacksonVirgo]

and he even puts it as his signature

unbelivable

How could I not

[Gypyx]

and he even puts it as his signature

unbelivable

How could I not

yeah that's fair i would've done that if i was capable of being good at mafia

[Duelist Kage]

I just want to say, since I came off rather curtly before, that I do think your setup ideas are cool and creative, bianco, and I appreciate the effort you put into things. I just think with so many things that work the opposite of expected and/or have use in one very specific way there's very few people who are going to be able to flawlessly put all the pieces together to see the optimal way of doing things. I feel like I made a pretty good effort and we came closer to winning than if I hadn't pushed on the mech aspect, but I got too lost in the weeds of compulsive vig inventions to really even register the existence of the Lazy modifier that was our undoing. And that kind of smarts. So I hope you don't take my feedback personally.