Mini Normal 2333 | woah that's a lot of 3's | It's Gypover !

[Gypyx]

honestly it's not that much work

it just kinda doubles the writing i have to do, which is a bit annoying on mobile but on PC it's great

[Gypyx]

i will try to do it in my white flag game coming up, hopefully that will compensate for the setup being historically scumsided !

[DragonEater70]

In retrospect I only realized that vanilla cop was mostly a negative role for us. But I wouldn't have thought that without knowing the setup. I guess if Brian was checked instead of enchant it would have worked out for town though. Came down to luck on who was checked really.

One note on that is that I really, really think you should stop treating vanilla checks as clears. If you do, you basically entrust the winner of the game to "luck" by whether a goon or a VT gets "cleared". I know that you got lucky in the past and was checked as vanilla when you were a VT but even in Large Normal 246, there was a goon alive when that happened and the confirmed vanilla was not a confirmed green check.

[Dannflor]

I don't really think the vote history being in VCs matters too much

skilled town players will already be considering such things and skilled scum players will already be trying to manipulate such things

i guess it raises the skill floor a bit for both alignments?

[Dannflor]

the setup was fine, maybe scum is a tiny bit weak but still well within the realm of passing balance

it was a town misplay (including mine) to clear enchant off mechanical reasons

that being said, enchant had a good shot at winning elo without that

[Gypyx]

I don't really think the vote history being in VCs matters too much

skilled town players will already be considering such things and skilled scum players will already be trying to manipulate such things

i guess it raises the skill floor a bit for both alignments?

i guess it kinda encourages town to use these "more skillfull" methods, it's an active decision on their part though, i can kinda get the scum frustration in kinda being used to playing like usual and having another variable thrown at you

[JacksonVirgo]

One note on that is that I really, really think you should stop treating vanilla checks as clears. If you do, you basically entrust the winner of the game to "luck" by whether a goon or a VT gets "cleared". I know that you got lucky in the past and was checked as vanilla when you were a VT but even in Large Normal 246, there was a goon alive when that happened and the confirmed vanilla was not a confirmed green check.

To be fair, in most worlds Enchant would have been Town just based of site meta and how it treats balance here. Triple goon with three ungated PRs (albeit weak) and then a FN/UB. The assumption that there has to be at least one wolf PR is generally a pretty solid one imo. I still feel that logic is correct even if this game it was wrong, this setup was designed in a way that it countered general site meta/balance assumptions and for a Normal that's probably not

ideal

but it was a fun setup regardless except for that. In my opinion, I don't wanna shit on the setup (gypyx, u hella fine)

[Dannflor]

personally i think it's Good Actually if setups fuck with assumptions like that

mechanical assumptions like that are townplay crutches and towns should be punished for overly relying on them over dayplay

[Gypyx]

i don't think "making an overly townsided setup to teach people to not make mechnical assumptions" was one of my goals there but like, thanks

[Hu Tao]

In retrospect I only realized that vanilla cop was mostly a negative role for us. But I wouldn't have thought that without knowing the setup. I guess if Brian was checked instead of enchant it would have worked out for town though. Came down to luck on who was checked really.

One note on that is that I really, really think you should stop treating vanilla checks as clears. If you do, you basically entrust the winner of the game to "luck" by whether a goon or a VT gets "cleared". I know that you got lucky in the past and was checked as vanilla when you were a VT but even in Large Normal 246, there was a goon alive when that happened and the confirmed vanilla was not a confirmed green check.

I understand what you mean, but I doubt that the usual will be that scum will be all goons. But in the future I'd need to be weary and think of a case like this one

[Hu Tao]

personally i think it's Good Actually if setups fuck with assumptions like that

mechanical assumptions like that are townplay crutches and towns should be punished for overly relying on them over dayplay

I agree with this

[JacksonVirgo]

personally i think it's Good Actually if setups fuck with assumptions like that

I agree, but not for a normal

[JacksonVirgo]

People shouldn't rely on mech like this (ketchup would have an aneurysm here) yes, bit the fact it goes against the grain of

normalcy

goes against what I thought this queue was for, at least outside of the complex category

[Dannflor]

i don't think "making an overly townsided setup to teach people to not make mechnical assumptions" was one of my goals there but like, thanks

well, with the benefit of hindsight i think 3 goons is probably still well within the normal realm of balance

it's town sided but not so much that I don't understand why it passed review

i think a range of like 45-60% winrate is all fine and this might be closer to the high end but, like, that's fine

[KayJayQueue]

personally i think it's Good Actually if setups fuck with assumptions like that

mechanical assumptions like that are townplay crutches and towns should be punished for overly relying on them over dayplay

I agree with this

Please kill me before elo from now on!

[JacksonVirgo]

personally i think it's Good Actually if setups fuck with assumptions like that

mechanical assumptions like that are townplay crutches and towns should be punished for overly relying on them over dayplay

I agree with this

Please kill me before elo from now on!

Though hun, I recommend at the very least waiting for all people to post in ELO and abandon all assumptions you've made, reassess why you're alive in ELO and what that means for who the final wolf is

[BlackStar]

personally i think it's Good Actually if setups fuck with assumptions like that

mechanical assumptions like that are townplay crutches and towns should be punished for overly relying on them over dayplay

I agree with this

Please kill me before elo from now on!

You mentioned earlier that you felt like people often kept you around until the end of the game because they thought you were likely to screw up. To me you just seemed like someone who was more willing to listen to other people’s opinions than some other players, so I thought you would at least be willing to hear me out. I don’t think that’s a bad quality at all

[BlackStar]

Also, sorry to everyone for being so annoying on my last day lol

[BlackStar]

I thought this was interaction was interesting because you guys didn’t realize that you’d kind of solved the game

My biggest issue right now pertains to the yessiree wagon. If Hu Tao and Titus are both town, then Kay and Enchant are the only potential bussers there.

I made the case against yessiree the day StraightFlush was voted out and immediately voted him again the next day phase. I don’t see how I’d be a potential busser in this case.

[KayJayQueue]

personally i think it's Good Actually if setups fuck with assumptions like that

mechanical assumptions like that are townplay crutches and towns should be punished for overly relying on them over dayplay

I agree with this

Please kill me before elo from now on!

Though hun, I recommend at the very least waiting for all people to post in ELO and abandon all assumptions you've made, reassess why you're alive in ELO and what that means for who the final wolf is

I was worried that if Brian voted me when I wasn’t around, Enchant would hammer before I could respond. I was being paranoid. I trust no one. Ahhh I don’t like that position.

[KayJayQueue]

I thought this was interaction was interesting because you guys didn’t realize that you’d kind of solved the game

My biggest issue right now pertains to the yessiree wagon. If Hu Tao and Titus are both town, then Kay and Enchant are the only potential bussers there.

I made the case against yessiree the day StraightFlush was voted out and immediately voted him again the next day phase. I don’t see how I’d be a potential busser in this case.

The problem is that dann said it can’t be enchant. As our elected representative, I didn’t feel like I could go against his logic lol

[Dannflor]

tbf i was also running into the issue of not really believing it could be either brian or kjq based on play

sorry about the incorrect mechanical advice kjq

[JacksonVirgo]

I was worried that if Brian voted me when I wasn’t around, Enchant would hammer before I could respond. I was being paranoid. I trust no one. Ahhh I don’t like that position.

You had to kill him before he spoke, just like someone else we know of

[KayJayQueue]

tbf i was also running into the issue of not really believing it could be either brian or kjq based on play

sorry about the incorrect mechanical advice kjq

It’s okay but I trust your assumptions more than my own uninformed guessing ability anyway. Even if this was a fluke, I’d still trust your over me if I can confirm you’re town lol

[KayJayQueue]

I was worried that if Brian voted me when I wasn’t around, Enchant would hammer before I could respond. I was being paranoid. I trust no one. Ahhh I don’t like that position.

You had to kill him before he spoke, just like someone else we know of