Open 100 - F + E x 2 + TOG OVER! before 712

[ZazieR]

I'm picking up my prod. I want to hear from replacements before continuing, however.

Am I the only one who 'likes' Seraphim's contribution so far?
Could you tell us something about your suspicions?

vote count

tenchi (1): wall-e
peter? (1): tenchi

not voting: everyone else

[StrangerCoug]

Hello

Gave the game a read last night before I got Budja's role PM, and let me say right now that I don't see the case on Tenchi. There was one person who was pinging my scumdar, but I don't remember and I need to go back and check. (I think it's someone who's still alive.)

I agree that we should not have talked about the masons on Day 1. Now a mason is dead. I was driven to claim vigilante on Day 1 in Open 81 partly due to discussion about the vig (because there were three kills on Night 0, a vig had to exist as per the setup that game). I was kept around to endgame—that's apparently what you get for announcing targets.

[StrangerCoug]

There was one person who was pinging my scumdar, but I don't remember and I need to go back and check. (I think it's someone who's still alive.)

Ah, yes. Wall-E.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

Vote: Tenchi

Let's see what this does.

What the hell, Wall-E!? A random vote after you made a read vote?

Vote: Wall-E

Happy birthday!

I'm a huge Tenchi Muyo fan!

Confirm vote: Tenchi

Again, what the hell?

I disapprove of this lynch, but can't say why because it's verboten (apparently).

Why wouldn't you be allowed to voice why you don't like popsofctown's lynch?

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: read = real

[Tenchi]

OK this is bugging me:

Budja's/Coug's heavy defense of me is creeping me out.

[StrangerCoug]

Tenchi, not seeing the case on somebody ≠ defending that person per se. I simply fail to understand the case on you. If your concern is #327, I would also be defending someone whose lynch I actually understand, which makes no sense.

[Wall-E]

SC: All the questions you asked me have already been answered, leading me to believe that your concern over the content of the thread is feigned.

Further, your vote on me was for... what?

Your interpretation of my vote comes with zero commentary on my case on Tenchi. I would appreciate your input on my case on Tenchi now that you've denounced the whole thing.

[Wall-E]

Bah. Needs more participation.

[StrangerCoug]

Further, your vote on me was for... what?

You had a legitimate reason for one of your Day 1 votes, and then proceeded to revert to random voting. Why?

Your interpretation of my vote comes with zero commentary on my case on Tenchi. I would appreciate your input on my case on Tenchi now that you've denounced the whole thing.

Not seeing the case on somebody ≠ denying the case's existence either. Read #330 again.

[Tenchi]

Coug, I suggest you rethink your reasons for voting Wall-E.

Not seeing the case on somebody ≠ denying the case's existence either.

Uhm... I don't understand how this is the same as

Tenchi, not seeing the case on somebody ≠ defending that person per se.

Please clarify.

===========================

SCoug's first question above though is valid (although I could think of a reason why he did it.). Wall-E, please answer.

===========================

Am I the only one who 'likes' Seraphim's contribution so far?

I don't :\ But he says he's living the highschool life that I was giving him a free pass on that. But there shouldn't be any school right now right?

[StrangerCoug]

Not seeing the case on somebody ≠ denying the case's existence either.

Uhm... I don't understand how this is the same as

Tenchi, not seeing the case on somebody ≠ defending that person per se.

Please clarify.

Once again, by my not seeing the case on you, I mean I do not understand it. Dismissing something solely because you don't understand it is invalid (which is where your first quote comes in), and you have to know what the case is in the first place to do anything about it let alone defend it (hence the second quote).

[Wall-E]

It was not a random vote on Tenchi. I never said it was. SC made that up.

[StrangerCoug]

It was not a random vote on Tenchi. I never said it was. SC made that up.

Congratulations, you've just posted the first bullshit I've seen in 2009. "Let's see what this does", as far as I'm concerned, is random as you could have used the same reasoning for anybody else.

[Wall-E]

"Let's see what this does." wasn't my reason for voting him either.

[Wall-E]

...do you want to keep guessing or just ask? I'm going to spoil the surprise and say, "Read my case on Tenchi." Anything I say about his behavior chronologically prior to that vote is my reasons for my vote.

Maybe you can build a... anti case on Tenchi to convince me why I'm on the wrong trail?

I am having a hard time understanding your vote on me. It seems like you think I'm dead wrong, but won't say why.

[Wall-E]

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

I disapprove of this lynch, but can't say why because it's verboten (apparently).

Why wouldn't you be allowed to voice why you don't like popsofctown's lynch?

I... I... I'm going to cry now.

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question? are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

[Wall-E]

happy new years everyone!

[StrangerCoug]

"Let's see what this does." wasn't my reason for voting him either.

It was the only thing I saw in your post other than the vote, so I interpreted it as the reason. Your confirm vote is laughable too.

I'm going to spoil the surprise and say, "Read my case on Tenchi."

Which I don't understand. For at least the third time now. Meaning that somebody has to sum it up for me.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me. I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important. The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.

[Wall-E]

"Let's see what this does." wasn't my reason for voting him either.

It was the only thing I saw in your post other than the vote, so I interpreted it as the reason. Your confirm vote is laughable too.

It's scary to scum to be voted for with no stated reason. They start to wonder if the voter is a cop or other investigative. I was trying to unbalance Tenchi. You don't have to like it, but don't claim I had no reason when I voted.

For the record, I am NOT okay with people voting without stating their reasons.

Yeah, I realize I'm a hypocrite. I should just put that in my sig.

I'm going to spoil the surprise and say, "Read my case on Tenchi."

Which I don't understand. For at least the third time now. Meaning that somebody has to sum it up for me.

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia. I hope that helps.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly. Then you qualify it with a point that I already made, but you use it in a manner which is untruthful: The obviousness of the answer doesn't make asking it unimportant, it makes it a scumtell, as I've already said in the blue words above.

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating). I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.[/quote]

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread. The track you are on with my early game comment on HP Leaves has been done already. The only reason I'm engaging you right now is that it seems to be a recurring problem people are having with me, and I want to make sure I am clearly understood.

[Wall-E]

Look, we shouldn't be fighting with no input from others, so if you have more to say, I am going to wait to respond until several others have also done so. Let's see what others think about this before we wind up with a four page circle-jerk of quotes.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia. I hope that helps.

It doesn't. Not only is it vague, but since this is a multiball and I am unaware of the existence of any evidence that Tenchi killed hp [leaves] over Doc, you're giving me a slight werewolf vibe with this statement.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly.

As subtle as the distinction may be, ignoring it is twisting my words and therefore misrepresenting me.

Then you qualify it with a point that I already made, but you use it in a manner which is untruthful: The obviousness of the answer doesn't make asking it unimportant, it makes it a scumtell, as I've already said in the blue words above.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. If the answer is obvious, then why is it important to ask the question in the first place? And under what circumstances is it important for somebody to ask a scummy question?

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating).

You did little to stall popsofctown's lynch. The second to last post of yours before you voice your disapproval, you say that you would prefer lynching Budja over Tenchi but would be fine going after the latter. I buy your answer that you didn't say why you disapproved of a popsofctown lynch because nobody let you talk about the masons, but your best weapon therefore was to persuade the town that Budja and Tenchi, in your opinion, were better lynch options than popsofctown. Push Budja and Tenchi as much as necessary to achieve the desired effect.

I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

It takes one to know one.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.[/quote]

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread.[/quote]
Present it.

The track you are on with my early game comment on HP Leaves has been done already. The only reason I'm engaging you right now is that it seems to be a recurring problem people are having with me, and I want to make sure I am clearly understood.

Then why am I the only person you're attacking for misunderstanding you?

[Tenchi]

Wall-E tried to do something that was not blatantly stating that Pops was a bad lynch (although not as well presented as his campaign on mine :\).

This post was somewhere with Pops at L-2/3 before he said the "verbotem" statement. (Which has me thinking he was resolved to a Pops lynch at that time and the only way to save Pops was to claim mason on behalf of him, which Wall-E doesn't want to get in trouble with)

My best lead right now is Budja. His call for a "cease-fire" without offering alternate targets still bothers me. I could be convinced to vote for pops or ZazieR if one of them does something scummy worth noting and can't explain it, so I'm waiting on further debate between those two before picking a more serious target.

The debate between them is healthy, but atm I'm getting a town read off pops and a lesser town read off Z.

I missed this question earlier:

@ wall-e: you seem to want to defend pops? why is that?

It was less that I was defending him and more that I was calling attention to specific things he's said that I feel are good for us all to notice.

I'm suspicious of hp leaves and Tenchi: Hp for shoddy, slop plays that make him look like a newb who cares little about the game, and Tenchi for post 211 where he calls someone scum with zero explaination as well as the reasons given for his bandwagon earlier. That lynch died with a whimper which tells me there might have been some merit to it.

Vote: Budja

[sekinj]

Asking for replacement

[Seraphim]

Vote: Wall-E

This argument...arguments like this often kill games like this. However, I am getting more town vibes from StrangerCoug. Also, I had been getting scum vibes from Wall-E even before Day 2. I'm going to do a re-read to see if the facts confirm my gut instinct at the moment.

[Tenchi]

*bump*