Newbie 727: Game Over, Town Wins!

[hasdgfas]

I'd like to announce that:
A) I didn't get a thread location for this game so I had way more difficulty finding it than I should have

B) /moofirm

[hasdgfas]

- Have you had any previous Mafia experience? If so, was it here or on another site? In real life?

I played in real life when I was younger, and then I found this site randomly one day and loved it, been here over a year at this point.

- Do you have a favorite role? If so, what is it? If not, why not?

I'm a big fan of jailkeeper, actually. Takes more skill to use it, and it's not like because there weren't any deaths, you immediately know the alignment of your target. It's a very useful role, and lots of fun.

- Overall, do you believe that you are comfortable with, and understand the game of Mafia?

These are two completely different questions, and I'm going to answer them one at a time.
understand:
I feel I understand the basics, yes, but there are always new things to learn, so I never fully understand it.

comfortable with:
No, not really. I'm never truly comfortable in a game of mafia. If you are, something bad is happening. You should always be on your toes, looking for some sort of slip-up.

- What, in your opinion, is a particularly egregious mistake that townies often make when they start playing?

There are three that I'd like to mention right now (although I'm sure more will come as the game goes along).
1) Newbies assume that the ICs are right about everything and listen to them no matter what. This is a bad idea. The ICs are playing too, and will lie.
However, if we're discussing game theory, what good decisions are, that sort of thing, we won't be lying about that.
I'm not going to say anything like "You should vote for yourself all the time", because that's terrible gameplay. We won't tell you everything about how to play, but we will give you some general advice if you need it.
Does that make sense? If not, ask for clarification about what doesn't.

2) Newbies often decide that they want to just wait for information from power roles. This is bad, because sometimes there aren't any, not to mention that scum can lie about being a power role. Good scumhunting is better than power roles. Power roles help, but scumhunting is the basis for mafia.

3) Newbies think we should not lynch day 1 because we're more likely to hit town. While that is true,

ANY

lynch gives us information, such as who was on the wagon, etc., that we can use later in the game to try to find scum. If we don't lynch, we lose that information, and the scum get a free kill of a townie.
Then we're just back to the same position of no information day 2, but with one less person. You should almost always lynch. There are a few exceptions, yes, but those are rare. Lynches are the best weapon the town has for catching mafia, we need to use them.

I will also

vote: BlitzBall

(this is not a random or arbitrary vote).

BlitzBall, I have a question for you. What do you think is the point of random voting?

[hasdgfas]

I'm planning on explaining my vote soon enough, I just would like Blitz to come in and answer my question first.

@Burb: Why does faulty rationale make someone suspicious? Is there a reason you're so jumpy about a vote so early?

Also:

Let me make a pre-emptive defense: no, I am not a mafia protecting my matey.

You saying that it's not makes me more likely to think that it is. I didn't have any thoughts of you being mafia protecting your scumbuddy until you said that wasn't what you were doing. Why did you feel it necessary to defend against a non-existent accusation?

FoS: Burb

.

However, votes based on poor rationale may lead to frustration and loss of respect on both sides, which makes the cooperation so necessary in the future that much harder. Of course a random vote will be needed, but first I'd like to hear both sides concerning your non random vote.

I hope there's no loss of respect. Frustration I can understand, but "loss of respect"? What do you mean by that?

Also, "makes the cooperation so necessary in the future that much harder". Could you explain this as well?

Like I said, I'm going to explain. I want Blitz to answer my question first. This is EXTREMELY important to my voting reasons.

Another question Burb, why did you say "Of course a random vote will be needed"? What did you mean by that?

[hasdgfas]

You saying that it's not makes me more likely to think that it is. I didn't have any thoughts of you being mafia protecting your scumbuddy until you said that wasn't what you were doing. Why did you feel it necessary to defend against a non-existent accusation? FoS: Burb.

Because such an accusation is a logical consequence of my defense and I merely provided the next logical step. I despise inefficiency

But I didn't see it as you defending him at all. I saw it as you making a reasonable request of me to explain the reasons behind my vote. Why'd you think that would bring you under fire?

@Burb: Why does faulty rationale make someone suspicious? Is there a reason you're so jumpy about a vote so early?

I find faulty rationale to be suspicious because only scum would need to resort to that in finding a reason to vote for someone else. Of course, being illogical may simply be a character trait of his, but i have no way of knowing that. Additionally, in lieu of all other possibilities,

voting off the most illogical member is also simply the most logical step

; he will be the biggest hindrance in the future.

It's not as if I think his reason was such a huge blunder he must be scum. It's just that I have absolutely nothing else to go on.

I don't like the bolded sentence there. Why the most illogical as opposed to the scummiest? Do you feel they're always the same?

Another question Burb, why did you say "Of course a random vote will be needed"? What did you mean by that?

I thought random D1 votes were a matter of course, especially among IC players such as yourself. voting NL gives us less information than a lynch; essentially it's a free NK for the mafia, which may result in a lost pro townie power role. Random kills may be unpleasant, but they provide greater information and even have a chance of killing the mafia, slight as it may be. Should we accidentally attempt to lynch a doc or cop, then they can claim, so it's not a totally terrible idea.

Remind me to return to this after Blitz answers my question.

I hope there's no loss of respect. Frustration I can understand, but "loss of respect"? What do you mean by that?

Yes, that's me being too over enthusiastic again. Generally, I mean that people tend to form feelings of ill-will which encourages emotional, rather than logical, decisions. Obviously, this is detrimental in a game of mafia, where we root them out through logic of analysis.

Oh, gotcha, the OMGUS feeling then.
Why do you feel that your vote was a logical decision as opposed to an emotional decision. If he had the same reasoning for voting for someone else, do you think you would have voted him?

Also, when you quote people, could you put their name in the quote box so people know who is being quoted? It makes it much easier to tell what and who you're responding to.
If you need to know how, it's

[/quote ] but without the spaces at the end.

[hasdgfas]

vote:hasdgfas

for pretending to have a reason for his (apparently) non-random random vote. Also for using a deceptive avatar. You're no cow, not by far Mister!

1) Please read the thread. I have said multiple times when I will be explaining my vote. I definitely have a reason for it, I need a question answered first, however.

2) Please read my signature. I am a cow. It has been proven through logic.


@Burb: You forgot the quotation marks around the names in the quotes

OMGUS is usually used to indicate voting for someone who voted for you just because they voted for you.

[hasdgfas]

Interesting. The point of random voting (IMO), is to generate conversation in a lighthearted way, and to provide potential reactions. (For instance, if somebody acts extremely strongly to a single vote, that could be scummy, and people could discuss the issue.) In some cases, especially with games among experienced players, it's more of simply a lighthearted way to begin the game, and more of a tradition.

It's similar to my list, in that it can be used to created dialogue, but I feel that my questions also helped to provide some background information, that could be used for future analysis.

This is what I'm focused on and the main reason for my vote.

Why did you feel it necessary to place a random vote, which is usually used as a way to figure out how to start real discussion, when you already had a way to start real discussion, that is, your questions?

I voted for you because it seems to me like you random voted to fit in better because it's "the thing to do", or, as you say, "tradition" even though your questions were a much better start to any game than random voting could be.

[hasdgfas]

Another question Burb, why did you say "Of course a random vote will be needed"? What did you mean by that?

I thought random D1 votes were a matter of course, especially among IC players such as yourself. voting NL gives us less information than a lynch; essentially it's a free NK for the mafia, which may result in a lost pro townie power role. Random kills may be unpleasant, but they provide greater information and even have a chance of killing the mafia, slight as it may be. Should we accidentally attempt to lynch a doc or cop, then they can claim, so it's not a totally terrible idea.

Remind me to return to this after Blitz answers my question.

Ah yes, this. Ok, here goes.

Random votes are one way of starting us off to get more information. However, not everyone random votes in games. Many players use other ways of getting "real" discussion started or use things they see in other people's random votes to start discussion.

However, no lynches should be "random", as you appear to say some are. If there is a quick lynch, that's not random, because someone had a reason to have the lynch like that. Every lynch has some reasoning behind it, and we start to see that once we get out of the "random stage". It's usually better to start "real" discussion quickly so time isn't wasted on the "random stage", which, by the way, I don't think is truly "random". I could do a whole rant on why it's not truly "random" but I don't think you want to read it right now.

No Lynch does give us less information and gives the scum a free kill.

I understand the logic of your vote now Has. Now that Blitz has answered in the way you anticipated how do you think this makes him any more likely to scum trying to fit in, compared to town trying to fit in?

Sotty, why do you expect me to have made my decision after one post?
My thoughts change after each post by the person I'm going after. I'll continue going after him, asking him questions and the like, until I'm satisfied. It's what I do when I scumhunt.

[hasdgfas]

unvote

Blitz has answered my questions sufficiently.


@Burb: Why is it such a bad thing to be asking people about our discussion so far? It's not like they're leading questions or anything trying to make me look more suspicious for no reason or questions trying to paint himself in a good light. Actually, questioning people can be one of the best things you can do, even if you're in the middle of an argument with someone. It just depends on the questions. I like these questions so far.

[hasdgfas]

Really not liking this. Why exactly do you believe that Hascow had no reason for his vote, especially when he stated multiple times that he has a reason that he will reveal shortly?

I really didn't think he would base his reasoning on the answer to the question:

What do you think is the point of random voting?

Doesn't the name say it all?

I believe a random vote will evoke a response from new players who feel attacked, but for players who are used to playing Mafia games, it should not raise any eyebrows. I would probably ignore a random vote against me.

My initial vote was with an aim of accusing someone (anyone for that matter), instead of just random voting, and hasCow's post gave me a reason to start with him. Though I was but only half-serious while voting him, as can be read in my post:

Also for using a deceptive avatar. You're no cow, not by far Mister!

As for Blitz, somehow playing the thats-how-we-played-games-on-the-old-site card seems more an excuse than analytical reasoning.

FoS: Blitz

Ill keep my vote where it is right now, I'm too sleepy to analyze so many posts. Ill write another one when I'm up tomorrow morning.

So many things to respond to in this post.
I said I was going to explain my vote after the answer to the question, but nowhere did I say that my reasoning was based on the answer to the question. My reasoning was something else completely, I just wanted the question answered before explaining it because my thoughts would change after the question was answered.


Why do you say that a random vote shouldn't raise eyebrows? What if it's a "random vote" that puts someone at L-1? Shouldn't that raise some eyebrows? Why would you ignore a "random vote" against you? Do you feel there are any better responses to a "random vote"?

So, your vote was there to accuse someone instead of random voting, but it was only a half-serious vote? You can't have it both ways amey. You can't be making a serious vote but also joking about it. If there's a serious portion to it, everything said should come into account when explaining the vote, even the "joke" parts, because those can often mean more than most people think.

Why are you FoSing Blitz for playing the game the same way he's always played it and explaining that? Do you think he's lying? Does analytical reasoning have to be the defense for every attack? Why can't you just explain why you did what you did? Are all explanations excuses?

Now, the HUGE problem with this post. You're still voting for me. Why? Your reason for voting for me was:

vote:hasdgfas

for pretending to have a reason for his (apparently) non-random random vote. Also for using a deceptive avatar. You're no cow, not by far Mister!

I explained the reason behind my first vote, now you're just leaving your vote on me. Is there another reason for your vote? If it's the cow thing, I already explained that too, and you didn't respond to it. If there's not another reason for the vote, why is it on there?

I want answers, and this is one of the best ways I know to get them:

vote: ameyarahane

[hasdgfas]

Although Spinach just posted, he also hasn't said much about the game as of yet so

- Do you have any comments about the game thus far Spinach?

I'm pretty clueless as to who is Scum, although I'm wondering why you, BlitzBall, still have your vote on me. I believe we're past the random voting stage, and I think the votes cast then shouldn't reflect when we're actually 'in the game'.

here's a question, Spinach. How does it help anyone if, after the "random stage" is over(don't get me started on my opinion of how useless the "random stage" is, btw), everyone decides to just unvote because we're out of that portion of the game. And how do we know when we're past that portion of the game? What if different people have different thoughts on when we're out of the "random stage"?
How useful is it to say "unvote because we're out of the random stage" and then not put your vote anywhere else?

[hasdgfas]

This would be a vote, but putting someone at lynch -1 isn't a good play on only the 3rd page of the game.

I have to disagree with this, but it doesn't really matter right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong Has, but I believe he is talking in general terms. So how useful do you think it would be in scum hunting terms if you simply unvoted your "random" vote and then didn't actively attempt to put your vote somewhere else?

This is correct. It's more general terms.

[hasdgfas]

This would be a vote, but putting someone at lynch -1 isn't a good play on only the 3rd page of the game.

I have to disagree with this, but it doesn't really matter right now.

What part do you disagree with? The possible vote, or the comment about putting Burb at lynch -1 so early?

Putting him at L-1 "so early". I'm not a fan of saying "we haven't reached enough pages to do X yet".

[hasdgfas]

I'm trying to really be cynical here, not trusting what anyone has to say. Maybe I'm going wrong, but it's still to early to say.

Well, IMO, that's not a good way to play. You have to remember that the majority of people aren't scum and have good intentions. It works a lot better if you attempt to figure out the intentions of the person posting. Look for things that you think scum would do, don't just fully distrust everything everyone says.

People actually do assign everyone random numbers and then use a random number generator to pick them.

BTW, if someone does this, I will immediately serious vote them.

[hasdgfas]

Well, I meant only for like first post/random vote of the game sort of thing. Although even then it can be kinda sketchy. Meh.

yep, I don't like it at any point, which includes first post/random vote.

[hasdgfas]

Honestly, I think the conversation which occurred focusing on Blitz led by Has was sort of pointless. If Blitz wanted to ask questions it fits in perfectly with the tone of a newbie type game.

It smacks me as blatant overthinking to find a hidden meaning behind his simultaneously random voting and posing questions.

Maybe Has just needed someone to focus on and blitz said enough to find something to latch onto.

LA, what do you think the game of mafia is all about if not finding hidden meanings behind what people say?

Also, do you really believe that me making a real vote so early and then going after someone like that is "pointless"? If so, why?

[hasdgfas]

Im not finding him suspicious because he is defensive / desperate, but because of the manner in which he changed his tone, as if he's a sure lynch.

ok, so you're suspicious of him and you say this:

But at the same time, if I believe Burb to be scummy, I wouldn't mind being the one to cause a lynch / put him at L-1.

But you're not voting for him. How do these two statements make sense together?

[hasdgfas]

Already explaining away why he’ll survive the night and the absolutely bizarre sentiment that seems to lurk in here about hoping for Burb to go down and be revealed as town bothers me to no end. It’s just telegraphing a setup of Ameyarahane riding in afterwards on his white horse and directing traffic for the rest of the game. Something a townie would generally want to avoid, but puts scum right in the driver seat.

Danny, first of all welcome!
Well, I'm not

hoping

for Burn to go down in fact I don't want him to go down right now, just that IMHO he was not defending himself properly and I thought he might get lynched. Some of my previous posts were

assuming

that Burb happens to go down, what I thought would be the case. The reason is that my earlier posts seem to align me and Burb too much and hence

if

he was lynched, and turned out to be a townie, I would seem less scummy.
Darn! Every post I make makes me appear more scummy!

amey, explaining what happened before and how scummy you've looked does absolutely nothing if you want to convince people why you shouldn't be lynched. Defend yourself from the accusations people have made instead.

[hasdgfas]

In my defense, if I were a mafioso, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself.

WIFOM. No offense amey, but scum and town would both say that, so that's not a good defense.

[hasdgfas]

no, only defenses that say "I wouldn't do this if I were scum"

[hasdgfas]

The night will soon be upon us!

do you have anything useful to say?

[hasdgfas]

Burb, got anything to say about that?

[hasdgfas]

Danny, why do you feel that you have to vote someone to get answers?

[hasdgfas]

Burb, you voted while saying that you were putting him at L-1, but as far as I can tell, today you're saying that you knew you were hammering.

Am I missing something or are you just flat-out lying?

[hasdgfas]

Oh, I just noticed.

Vote: Ameyarahane

I believe this puts him at L-1 - please no quick hammers until he has had the chance to claim or make any final arguments.

You forgot to unvote me before voting for amey.

Well, since he's had his say I don't really see anything else to do then to

Vote Amey

L-1 now, choose to hammer if you wish or continuing querying amey.

I guess I have to explain myself more thoroughly if you're going to jump at me so enthusiastically.

What I meant wasn't that I was unaware of your vote. What I meant was that my own quote meant that I was going to vote for amey after his reply, but specifically the L-1 vote. Since you voted before he replied, my vote no longer became L-1 but rather the hammer. Nevertheless, I believe my quote stated my intentions quite clearly even if one of the circumstances changed.

Burb: Day 1, you quoted Ropis's vote post saying that you were putting him at L-1.

Day 2, you say that you were aware of his vote, but were voting him to L-1 and that since Ropis posted in between it was actually the hammer. That doesn't make sense. You knew Ropis voted.

You quoted it.

I don't understand what you're trying to say about him voting before amey replied.

[hasdgfas]

My thoughts change after each post by the person I'm going after. I'll continue going after him, asking him questions and the like, until I'm satisfied. It's what I do when I scumhunt.

So you're saying that you only target one person at a time? What happens if the first person you target doesn't answer the questions how you want them to? Do you immediately stop scumhunting, as you've become "satisfied" that he's scum?

No, if he doesn't answer them the way I want, I keep going after him until I see something better to go after, which might be something else or it might not happen until after he's lynched.
I don't ignore what everyone else is doing, but it's backburner. If someone doesn't answer my questions the way I want, they still have chances, because I'll be asking them more questions. I don't make final decisions based on their answers to one or two questions.

[hasdgfas]

Figures, get some pressure on scum and they drop out of the game instead of answering the tough questions. Pop, please try and defend or at least explain your predecessor's behavior circa my comments in post #152.

[ICmode]Danny, while I appreciate your enthusiasm for going after Burb and Ropis, Ropis cited real life reasons for having to drop out of the game. I have never seen anyone cite real life reasons and not be truthful about it, whether scum or town. If he just disappeared, sure I could understand that, but claiming he's scum because he had to leave for RL reasons is very unsporting. Oh, and most replacements first unvote when they replace in so they have time to read up before getting their thoughts up.[/ICmode]

[hasdgfas]

hey all, sorry I haven't posted, I've been sick recently. I should have something up in the next day or two.

[hasdgfas]

i thought Burb was at L-2 when i voted. I just remember you complaining excessively that i pulled Burb off of L-1, so i figured he was not at L-1.

I apologize for not paying enough attention, i have multiple games and a (somewhat) busy life.

this is not an excuse. This site is not anyone's life, but most people do play multiple games and most people's lives are busy, so that could be an excuse for anyone. The fact is, you should have checked, especially since we hadn't had a vote count for a few days, and there had been a bit of vote movement since it.

Has: Surprised me too that I couldn't put him on the bottom of my list. However, after looking at his strategy of focusing all his comments on a single individual, I realized it's not all that helpful for the town. I can't draw any links between Has and those I suspect of being town or scum. In other cases a lack of suspicion or commentary can be an obvious scum buddy tell; in has' case it would simply be the status quo. I'd love to hear your thoughts about your strategy and why you believe it's effective though; as well as your thoughts on the other players in the game.

If I think that 2-3 different people are scummy, then splitting my time between them, while showing suspicion of multiple people, is not useful for me when scumhunting, because I don't know who to focus on. If I'm focusing on one person, I can compose my thoughts about that person in my mind as they answer, and those thoughts usually stay with me for the rest of the game. It's usually easier for me to do this in newbie games though, I have more difficulty with this strategy in a bigger game, unfortunately.

I'll get my thoughts on everyone else up shortly, but pops seems to me to be using the same excuse Burb did of "I didn't realize it was the hammer" and, while Burb was townie, pops may realize this and be trying to pull that out later.

[hasdgfas]

If I think that 2-3 different people are scummy, then splitting my time between them, while showing suspicion of multiple people, is not useful for me when scumhunting, because I don't know who to focus on. If I'm focusing on one person, I can compose my thoughts about that person in my mind as they answer, and those thoughts usually stay with me for the rest of the game. It's usually easier for me to do this in newbie games though, I have more difficulty with this strategy in a bigger game, unfortunately.

Ok, so it's a potentially useful tool for you, but how is it useful to the town. If you're scum it gives us no useful links and if you're town and you were to be NKed we'd only have a single piece of information per day or so to analyze and try to come to conclusions about instead of an array of information to use. It's not as blatantly terrible as Spinach's "I agree" style, but it does seem to limit the information town has to work with.

I play in a way that best suits me and my scumhunting ability.
A) If I'm scum, creating no links is good for me, therefore, good play.
B) If I'm town and killed, the town can look at my suspicions for some probable reasons why I was NK'd. Because while they may have just killed me due to my experience or whatever, there's always a reason for the NK. No matter how "little" information is put out there by the NK, you can usually get a pretty good feel for their thoughts on most people.
I'm not ignoring what everyone else does, I just don't usually think that going around attacking everyone every day is at all useful for the town.

If we have a cop in this game I think he/she should claim and give us there investigation reports.

Spinach, I asked for a scum list not a town list. So I must assume you feel me and Pops are scum?

Has, I would like to see your scum list.

Scum list or thoughts on everyone in the game list?

[hasdgfas]

bronco, unvote now

[hasdgfas]

vote: Danny

I kind of have to as he's completely lying.

[hasdgfas]

Tell me why I shouldnt put that vote back on you. Also im waiting for your scum list/ player assesment.

Did you find Danny's quick vote with no reasoning to be a bit suspicious?
I know I did.

[hasdgfas]

Tell me why I shouldnt put that vote back on you. Also im waiting for your scum list/ player assesment.

bronco, take a look at post 90. If Danny was actually the cop, why would he put me as his 3rd most suspicious person in a day where A) he has a guilty on me, and B) he loses if there is a wrong lynch?


The reason you're still waiting for my list is because I wanted clarification on what kind of list you want. I'll just list everyone.

Danny: Lying about being cop with a guilty on me. Obvscum.
pops: Also quite suspicious, mostly due to the hammer yesterday. I think he's trying to do the same thing as Burb and convince us he's town because Burb showed up town.
Spinach: I don't know what to think of Spinach. Hasn't posted much of anything, but that might be more of a newb-tell than anything.
bronco: Too lurky, but usually been smart enough and I haven't seen much suspicious from him.

[hasdgfas]

Hi all, thanks for the game.
As an IC, I've started commenting on all the players once the games have finished for their future use.

amey: Your biggest problem was definitely the fact that you gave up and kept talking about how scummy you were. No matter how scummy you are, you should be defending yourself, not agreeing that you're scummy. That just leads everyone to think that you're giving up on the game, which is a very bad thing.

yawetag: Good contribution from him, although I'm not sure why he was killed. One of the mafia want to clear that up?

burb: pretty much the same as amey. Try to make a better defense, and always assume that unvotes aren't necessary, because that won't lead to an unwanted lynch excepting simulposts and just not counting. You also made it seem the next day like you knew that you were hammering, which really confused me. I honestly think an honest "I thought it was L-1" would have worked better, at least in the newbie game setting.


Danny: Very well played. I always was a bit uneasy regarding you, but I never really knew why. You were quite aggressive, which is good for both town and scum, because it looks like good town and is really hard to read if you're scum. I think your biggest problem was how hard you went after pops. I personally always thought Spinach was scummier, but your case on pops made me lean more the other way. The quicklynch thing was pretty much just bad luck, and the cop claim was a bad idea after claiming me as 3rd suspect, but it was a tough situation and you made the right call.

pops: I didn't think you played that badly, but the hammer of burb looked strangely similar to burb's hammer, and made me think you were just trying to piggyback off of that. The cop claim day 4 was a horrible idea, and I'm really surprised that you tried it. Were you aware of the setup possibilities at that point?

bronco: A bit less netspeak would be better, as I sometimes had difficulty reading your posts, but you played very well. Good arguments and the like. I'm surprised that yawetag was killed instead of you, honestly, although that may have been because you were a bit quiet at first.

spinach: post more. It felt to me like you were just trying to slide by and post almost nothing, which isn't usually a good idea when it comes to a game played solely through posting.

sotty: you know what you're doing, shown by the fact you were killed the first night.

me: Not my best game post-day1, which I apologize for, but a lot of stuff came up at school and I lost a lot of free time with which to post. I usually don't blend into the background as much as I did Days 2 and 3 in this game.