Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia II {Game Over!}

[Empking]

Didn't put it back on though. So since, the vote count reset its just that the only time that suspicion warranted a vote was coincidently the same time a random bandwagon popped up.

[DrippingGoofball]

Stop arguing with ABR.

[ortolan]

Haven't finished reading through, but

if you remember, the town got lucky in the end. the plan to send in two scum together would have been the end for the town if a

one-shot

power-role hadn't hit them.

That's a total misrep. They weren't sending in the two scum on the basis they were scum, because town didn't think they were scummy.

you are right. we are wasting the day away hoping it works out, but there is little else we can do. scumhunting will get us no where today because: a) we have no guaranteed lynch mechanic, and b) there is little information to go on day 1.

Why will we have less information on day two than in another other setup?

as for why i saw him as pro-town...call it my gut. that and i already posted a really long post about why i believed him to be pro-town.

We may be using conflicting terminology but someone can be townie but anti-town. I don't see how his actions could be described as pro-town. His role flip may have explained why he acted in such an attention-seeking way, but I don't see any justification for having described him as pro-town (so yes, I found your arguments for doing so weak)

And yes, scum are more likely to defend a townie and if they can't help themselves even say "hehe I just *know*" he's town. They then try to use this when the person in questions gets lynched/nked and flips town as meaning they themselves are townie, when in fact the very fact they were so sure of a scummy player's towniness who did happen to be town makes them more suspicious.

[Narsis]

but regardless of whether they were being sent as scum or not, you can see what would happen if two scum were paired together. and without a definite lynch mechanic, we can do nothing to stop them. hence the need for plans like 2 and 3 or an entirely different one where we rely solely on PRs.

i never said we'd have less information on day 2 then compared to another setup.

and that's why i said pro-town is because of that conflicting terminology. don't want people to get confused.

and yes scum may do that.

anyway...my strengths lie in logic and intuition, not what arguing you are calling scumhunting. anything can be made to look pro-town and anything can be made to look scummy. it takes logic and intuition to determine the truth. without that, it is all subject to WIFOM.

but then again you'll probably find that last paragraph scummy as you find everything about me.

[zachattack]

For the people who want to send two scummy players and that's it.

If Empking and Narsis are both scum, how do you suppose we kill them? They won't kill each other. If one's scum and one is town it's great, but I think we need to send another townie pair after them, just in case they're both scum we can dayvig them.

[Narsis]

i'd call it a waste of a vig, but it wouldn't be so meh.

and before you say anything: i'm not saying i'm scum i'm saying that any informed majority kill is good. i'd gladly be DK'd if it meant the town gaining more information and winning.

[zachattack]

I'm not suggesting we vig you outright instead of sending you to prison. Right now, rightly or wrongly, you and Empking are under suspicion. If you are sent to prison, it will be with the expectation that you will kill each other. If you both say no, it will be clear that you both are scum, but without dayvig's we will have no way to take you out.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I'm not suggesting we vig you outright instead of sending you to prison. Right now, rightly or wrongly, you and Empking are under suspicion. If you are sent to prison, it will be with the expectation that you will kill each other. If you both say no, it will be clear that you both are scum, but without dayvig's we will have no way to take you out.

Uh... I may not be totally with the times here, but does anyone else think it's complete bullshit to expect someone to "yes" someone they believe to be town? What if we send two townies and they "yes" each other upon command? Lulz, epic fail?

The more and more I think about this, the less win any of these plans seem. I think that we're best off trying to pair town-scum and just letting the players decide for themselves whether to yes or no... anyway, maybe I'm just being a distraction. Back in my hole.

[ortolan]

wow Plan 3 has just been straw-manned entirely by the last 3 posters.

However at least it has brought to light why the idea ABR seems to be advocating, of just sending all the scummiest, is unworkable.

The idea with Plan 3 was to send two pairs of townies- they say no, get two investigates, two daykills.

The last pair are instructed to say yes. If they do not, the daykills get used on them. Thus if any townies are selected in the scumpair they have incentive to say "yes" otherwise they are simply wasting town's resources in vigging them, rather than vigging anyone else who may turn up guilty from the investigations. This is why the plan is brilliant and lets us offload our two scummiest players already. Please tell me why you're all not supporting Plan 3. ABR, too, seeing as your plan of sending the 6 scummiest won't work because as has been shown by the previous five posts, there is nothing to enforce the system if the people in prison opt to say "no".

And I would like to think we can trust ourselves to get at least *one* mafia if we try to pick the two scummiest players- if we can't town is screwed regardless. Even if we get one mafia and one townie, if the plan is executed successfully we trade one for one which is brilliant by all accounts.

and please stop getting your wires crossed, guys, it's not going to work if half the people are voting for the scummiest and half the towniest in this present send choice. I have shown why Plan 3 is the best way so please agree with me and get back to voting townies for this pair.

[Percy]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about our plans. I have come to the conclusion (again) that Plan 2 is optimal play, and anything other than that is reacting to unknown forces which can be massaged into whatever people like.

The scum have interference powers, and they'll use them - I can't think of why sending 4 townies and 2 scum is any

safer

than sending 6 townies, especially since there are so many problems with the scum/scum pair, and everyone seems to be assuming that we won't be sending scum on the first night anyway.

The scummy pair is actually best if it's one town and one scum. Town/town is horrible, especially if one of them decides to save their innocent butts and we have to hunt them down as scum. Scum/scum is potentially disastrous, but I can't see a scenario that's worse than a 2 scum, 2 townie swap, except for potential bussing, perhaps? I don't know.

The point is that sending one town and one scum is good, sending two town is horrible, and sending two scum is kinda meh. Ecto and freeko are already dead, and we have basically no info. Stephoscope died by accident. Conclusion: use the PD for getting power and information, and use the powers obtained to help us hunt scum. Those who say "I know MM will have something to dick with the setup" - how do you know? Oh sure, you'll use weasel words like "I'm pretty sure" or "suspect", but Plan 3 is just as uncertain as Plan 2 in both the risks that it presents and the possible benefits.

Most mafia games I'm in have had mostly town lynches, and the scum only come out towards the end. Why are we willing to send two people to their deaths, potentially killing

two townies per day

on top of the night kill, when the option is present to make our decisions based on more information?

Plan 3 advocates are trying to tell us that it's more of an incentive to scumhunt, or that it's more of a threat - we'll still have two dayvigs if we follow plan 2, and we'll have investigation data to pour over. It'll make our scumhunting better, and we won't be killing more people through ignorance and fear. It has the added benefit of giving us the power to police our plans, which the variation of send only two more scum does NOT give us (recently advocated by VRK and Moratorium). I also don't really see why scumhunting is inherently

better

than townhunting - also, can't we do both?



Stop complaining about how we're not playing "real mafia". Goddamn. Who cares whether this is "like other games" or not? Why is it good to try and mash this game into "just like regular mafia but with a mild twist"? It's entirely possible that this new game requires a new strategy. Anyone who can't stop moaning about how we're not playing this game right because it's new and different is both 1) trusting their own abilities to play 'regular' mafia (well, of course they are, they're

awesome

), implicitly assuming that the skills required for this new game and plan are radically different and 2) attempting to get out of really tackling strategy here, taking the tl;dr approach and trying to paint those that actually care about this game as distracting and scummish. If you want to play regular mafia, why the hell did you sign up for this game?

Plan 2 is the optimal strategy. Plan 3 is pretty good, and if everyone else wants plan 3, then that's OK with me I guess. Just make good arguments for it, rather than assuming that Plan 3 will be better at finding scum because it involves sending scum to prison right away. It's like an old person thinking that real mail is better than email because it arrives in an envelope,

just like it always did

, and this new stuff is all weird and frankly they don't want to bother with all this guff.

I've been asked for my scumlist and townlist, so I did a big reread. I've also looked at the plancount, and really, I just made an honest mistake with ortolan, sorry dude. I even put in the post where I mentioned my final votecount about acknowledging my mistake, then didn't fix it. So my apologies. Here it is.

(1)

Plan 1(?) - Albert

(8.5)

Plan 2 - Percy (B), Counselwolf (B), Plum (B), Narsis (B), RossWilliam (E), doctor no (B), Abstract Actuary (B), Empking, hp[leaves] (0.5),

(7.5)

Plan 3 - Kublai(A), zach, Vel-Rahn Koon (2 scum 2 town only), Moratorium (2 scum 2 town only), The Central Scrutinizer, solorpg, hp[leaves] (0.5), ortolan (B)

(3)

No Planvotes: Seraphim (being replaced), killa seven, Goofball

I'm not trying to misrep anyone, This is not just a case of reading the green bold entries (even though I still managed to screw that up). Take TCS's last post - should I take that as an unvote for a plan? Am I actively misrepping plan 3 to make it appear inflated? Should I leave hp's vote for plan 2 because they didn't actively unplanvote? The debate is not over, and I really have no interest in adopting a plan and saying "NAH BUT YOU VOTED SO WE'RE DOING THIS PLAN STFU", and I'm sorry I gave that impression. Both plan 2 and plan 3 will only work if we have everyone on board, and that's all there is to it.


I want to make something clear - we were all voting for two townies to be sent, and now others are trying to send a scumpair. It's confusing, and needs to stop. I'm going to

Unsend - both

and do the right thing - vote for my sends unofficially, say what I want and why I want it, and allow those who will be sent to have a say in what happens all the way to the end of the day rather than silencing them now.


I've been asked for a scumlist and a townlist. I did a complete reread of this thread, and here's the stuff I found particularly interesting.


I feel that RossWilliam has been making contributions, but nothing really substantial. He's been actively lurking, which I find more scummy than actual lurking, because it often is designed to distract. Consider these posts:

Albert has a point....it's extremely naive to think that people are gonna be controlled, and even 100% percent town people are gonna act rashly and sometimes on their own. I think any plans relying entirely on controlling people need to be taken with a grain of salt....maybe we should still go through with them, but not depend on them

This seems sensible, but it's also incredibly ambiguous. Does he want a plan? Does he like ABR's reasoning? How does this affect the plan choices - are we going to try and pick a more tamper-proof plan? The next post is this:

What about getting 5 investigates and just one daykill? At least for early in the game? The chances are slim for finding scum so with five investigates you'll still probably only find one scum and then he/she can be killed.....your probably not gonna need more than one vigkill in the early game

I don't see how this follows on from the previous post. Dayvigs are much easier to control and Dayvestigates. He also previously expressed a desire to follow plan 3, and called Plum's plan the best of the 6 townie plans. Does he believe this 5-1 plan to be better than the other two? Or is he just 'putting it out there'?

None of you other players really stand out as super town or super scum to me....it's hard on the first day.

Sure it's hard, but I don't see any attempts on your part to generate information.
Instead, he throws up his hands and asks for the end of the day, only to retract it when no-one even pays any attention to it. I can think of no reason at all why we should end the day with more than 2 weeks to go, no plan decided and two people in PD that may in fact be scum. There may be a reason, but "it's all too hard" sure isn't one of them.

He's playing it too safe. His latest post:

Or you can just use two investigates on him. I think it's better to waste an investigate then to kill a townie.

I think that it would be better to dayvig anyone who flipped scum due to an investigate right away. That way, we know whether investigates are a complete waste of time. Why be afraid of a Framer if none exists? If they flip town after getting a scum investigate, we can use the second investigate the investigator, or someone else entirely.

So, RossWilliam, please tell us what plan you like, why, and who you think is scum. I don't like this dancing around that you're doing.

The best thing to do is to send confirmed town and those we suspect are most likely to be town. We do this to gain more pro-town abilities, because Vigging will be the best way to dispatch of scum.

QFT. I know this was early in the game, but why are you voting for 3A now?

@Empking: Why are you so eager to do Plan 2? Posts like these:

1: 0
2: 5
3; 3

A: 1
B: 4
C: 0
D: 1
E: (5C 1V) : 1

Why are people working out how to the option three when its obviously not what the town wants us to do.

...make me feel very uncomfortable. When the votes are so close, and only 8 people out of

25

have voted, why are you so quick to silence dissent? What makes you so confident that Plan 2 is the winner here?

I am in favour of Plan 3 because I would be highly surprised if the mechanics of this game weren't designed to screw us up if we pursue an extension of exactly the same plan as was used in the original mini.

...so Plan 2 is better in theory, but the mod would know this, so would screw it up, so we should choose a plan that isn't optimal...? Smells like WIFOM. Let's just do the optimal plan. Also, see rant at top of this post. If you would care to explain to me how this isn't WIFOM, please go ahead.

Because I'm actually open to thinking about plan 3, though I feel like I want to sleep on that etc. Plan 3 seems predicated on being able to correctly identify at least one scum, and making sure both players in that PD pair have no motivation to do anything but yes+100%. At the same time, if two scum of one faction are PD paired, they absolutely don't have a motivation to do that. Might have a motivation for yes/no bussing strategy, very well might have a motivation for a no/no dayvig choice strategy. If on the other hand the players don't share a faction (one's mafia, one's another mafia faction, SK, townie, for instance), and they're told that the choice is yes+100% or get dayvigged - it should work, in theory. At the same time, plan 2 gives the town more overall power (if it's not messed with, but I'm also working with that assumption regarding plan 3, as it's easiest for comparison purposes) - more actual investigates and more post-investigate dayvigs - but at the same time there may be less motivation for scum to play the game we want them playing. If I've missed something/someone has something to say on these musings . . .

These are pretty much my feelings, but I can't see how Plan 3 makes the scum somehow more restricted, which is what Plum seems to be suggesting. Could you expand on this line of thought?

Narsis' defense of freeko basically boiled down to "he's not scum, he's just an ENORMOUS NOOB". In hindsight, he was probably right on most points. However, people who defend others rather than let them defend themselves scream scum to me. The scum know they're town, and know they're so dumb that they're attracting a whole lot of attention for being dumb. Chances are they're going to get themselves killed, and it will let you say "I told you so!". Which, hilariously enough, he did. Attempts to take the pressure off people (other than yourself) who are legitimately under investigation is a scumtell.

freeko and Ecto are both hiding from the town, and are playing selfishly rather than collectively. There have been some good PBPA's on freeko, and I'm really not happy with simply dismissing him as 'silly'.

How about now?

What does this question even mean? Am I meant to fall to the ground, beat my breast and rend my clothes with sorrow for keeping pressure on a bad player who made several glaring mistakes? Not fighting for the life of a player who strawmanned his way through not reading the game?

I'm willing to give town points to Plum and ortolan for their thorough analysis of freeko's posting. Both seemed to come up with different and original attacks, and neither seemed interested in starting a bandwagon.

Here's a mysterious post:

I dpon't think we should investigate Freeko.

Why? Just because he might be a Godfather, or might be framed? Why are you even voting plan 2 anyway?

Also, I must address this:

Just so you know, unless we get to a "I'm willing to let anyone go." position, I won't vote Percy. (gut)

Care to expand upon that?

On future days I think we will begin to send "scum pairs" into Prison with Yes/Yes instructions and also request more vigs from the town pairs, but I do think that the "scum pair" is going to be more problematic than we think.

If you're using the most recent midday results as evidence for the contrary, let's all examine what would have happened if the town had chosen that pair or if DrippingGoofball had been limited to just choosing two players. It would have resulted in two townie deaths and in this case neither would have gotten the chance to claim before being sent to their deaths.

Both of these are quoted for emphasis.

send: DrippingGoofball
send: Plum

Both gave me a consistent town vibe when I read through.

Can you be more specific about the town vibe you get from DGB? I know she's claimed a power without counterclaim and killed a scum, and that's pretty indestructible from where I'm sitting, but I'd still like to know what gave you that vibe. Also, why Plum, when she so clearly disagrees with your strategy?

- No one is scumhunting. Everyone's efforts is on "townhunting". We're wasting Day 1, typically the most active day, on hoping everything works out.

Why aren't you scumhunting? Don't blame everyone else, go and do it. More than that, why blame the setup? Yes, we might be sending 6 townies to prison, but we need to have targets for our dayvigs tomorrow.

I don't blame M-M for the setup, I blame the players for trying to break it. Myself included. And I don't really want to play "pretend I know the best plan" anymore, I want to scumhunt. What's going to happen Day 2, are we just going to play "Holy Crap, Night 1 was a clusterfuck, we need a Better Plan!" instead of scumhunting again?

How about this - you scumhunt, and leave the strategy up to everyone else?
Strategy is important in this game, and if you want no part in it, then that's OK I guess. But trying to make this game normal mafia and bemoaning the fact that no-one is playing normal mafia is really dumb. We've scumhunted plenty, and more will happen. Stop strawmanning.

Stop arguing with ABR.

Why are you defending ABR? Empking makes a good point - if ABR wants to claim that he's not wagonning based on his solid conviction stretching back through the game, the "why didn't you put your vote back on Narsis and continue investigating him?" question is worthy of being asked.

The more and more I think about this, the less win any of these plans seem. I think that we're best off trying to pair town-scum and just letting the players decide for themselves whether to yes or no... anyway, maybe I'm just being a distraction. Back in my hole.

If we pair town/scum with this plan, we'll get a lot of "yes/yes" votes. I can't imagine people voting otherwise - that's kinda the point of the Prisoner's Dilemma. Then we have a game that's kinda like regular mafia, but every mistake we make costs us two townies, and we have no powers, ever. We also lose the people we think are town that we send in with the scum - who would want to appear town? Everyone would want to be a creamy beige. This distraction is over.

Here's my list.
Scumreads:
RossWilliam - reasons as stated above
Narsis - reasons as stated above, as well as early skittishness
Empking - reasons as stated above, as well as the "just get 6 dayvigs" plan suggestion
Moratorium - bemoaning the lack of scumhunting without actually doing any of it, his serious lurk to begin with, and the "DGB - is your power one-shot" question.

Lurkers:
Seraphim - hasn't posted in three weeks
doctor no - hasn't posted in two weeks
killa seven - why did you even replace into this game?

Null reads:
The Central Scrutinizer
solorpg - perhaps an active lurker as well?
Albert B. Rampage - switched from a town read due to general unhelpfulness and refusal to talk strategy
hp[leaves]
Kublai Khan

Town reads:
DrippingGoofball - Claim.
ortolan
Plum
zachattack
CounselWolf
Abstract Actuary
Vel-Rahn Koon

SlySly and Lowell - both give me mildly townish reads. If they are millers, then I think both of them went about claiming well on the first day, which is why I was happy to entrust them with our plans. We'll see how it goes.


I'm going to do this. You should too.

Pair2 Townvote: Plum
Pair2 Townvote: ortolan

Pair3 Townvote: Abstract Actuary
Pair3 Townvote: zachattack

[Empking]

Unvote: DGB

Send: Narsis

Percy as I said - Gut.
I considered two to have wong because it was ages since people had voted.

I'm pretty sure DGB is scum. Only her claim has stopped me from unsending her and is it really that pro-town a claim?

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

doctor no, RossWilliam, Kublai Khan, CounselWolf, and Vel-Rahn Koon have been prodded for recent inactivity.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Prison Count #9

6 - Plum (Empking, CounselWolf, Narsis, ortolan, solorpg, RossWilliam)
5 - Narsis (hp [leaves], Moratorium, DrippingGoofball, Albert B. Rampage, Empking)
4 - Empking (hp [leaves], Moratorium, DrippingGoofball, Albert B. Rampage)
3 - Percy (solorpg, RossWilliam, The Central Scrutinizer)
2 - DrippingGoofball (Narsis, ortolan)

1 - ortolan (Kublai Khan)

Not Yet Voted:

Seraphim (2)
doctor no (2)
Plum (2)
Kublai Khan (1)
killa seven (2)
CounselWolf (1)
Abstract Atuary (2)
Vel-Rahn Koon (2)
The Central Scrutinizer (1)
zachattack (2)
Percy (2)

Remember the majority is 11 and the deadline is 3:00PM EST, Feb. 2nd

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry about the inactivity, I'm a slacker

I do not agree with Narsis being scum because of his pointing out that freeko was acting in a pro-town manner, and then freeko turning up as pro-town. I agree with Moratorium as anti-town for reasons stated.

If we are going with sending scum, I would vote for Moratorium and Empking. For town sends I would go with DGB and Plum. If we ever figure out whether we're sending more pro-town people or sending anti-town people I'll vote accordingly.

[Percy]

No counterclaim, and a dead scum. Seems pretty bulletproof to me.

You didn't answer why freeko shouldn't have been investigated.

I considered two to have wong because it was ages since people had voted.

Well, perhaps it would be better if you explained these posts en masse, since that excuse isn't going to work for all of them:

Why are people working out how to the option three when its obviously not what the town wants us to do.

(Votecount: 5v3)

It seemds to me, that six towny players.
4 cops, 2 vigs is the winner.

(7v3)

Its been ages with no new votes. Unless we want to wait till deadline, I think its fair to say 2B won it.

(9.5v3)

...and a few more:

People, mentioning how you want plan 3, 2A, 2C, 2D ect is not helpful.

Stop mentioning plan 3. We did not pick plan 3. Stop moaning about it.

We have made the final descision, we picked plan 2B. If we have a vig, they should be picking off anyone who tries to get the town to go with plan 3.

we should choose the plan before sending anyone. And we did. We chose 2B

I know I made a mistake and called it for Plan 2, and even described it as the final plancount. That was a mistake, and I regret that. However, I don't understand why you've been so eager to have Plan 2 put into action, and then to advocate the silencing of dissent when people voice their opinions. Surely you see that the willing co-operation of at least half the town is entirely necessary, no matter what they choose?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Unvote: DGB

Send: Narsis

Percy as I said - Gut.
I considered two to have wong because it was ages since people had voted.

I'm pretty sure DGB is scum. Only her claim has stopped me from unsending her and is it really that pro-town a claim?

I don't see it.

Would you expect scum to get that kind of power? If DGB is scum, then there are two scum teams because she'd never send her own partner, not at this point of the game.

There is nothing to suggest to us that the scum don't get night kills. So unless you think that her ability is a replacement for the traditional scum nightkill, I don't see how you think she's scum. I'm pretty sure that there's no way the scum get a traditional night kill + an ability like DGB demonstrated. It's too powerful IMO.

So unless you've got prior knowledge of how the scum night kills work, and therefore you know DGB is scum based on her ability, then this is just bullshit. All you're doing here is putting the pieces in place to lead a "lynch" on DGB tomorrow.

[Plum]

Ah, excellent, stuff's coming up!

Because I'm actually open to thinking about plan 3, though I feel like I want to sleep on that etc. Plan 3 seems predicated on being able to correctly identify at least one scum, and making sure both players in that PD pair have no motivation to do anything but yes+100%. At the same time, if two scum of one faction are PD paired, they absolutely don't have a motivation to do that. Might have a motivation for yes/no bussing strategy, very well might have a motivation for a no/no dayvig choice strategy. If on the other hand the players don't share a faction (one's mafia, one's another mafia faction, SK, townie, for instance), and they're told that the choice is yes+100% or get dayvigged - it should work, in theory. At the same time, plan 2 gives the town more overall power (if it's not messed with, but I'm also working with that assumption regarding plan 3, as it's easiest for comparison purposes) - more actual investigates and more post-investigate dayvigs - but at the same time there may be less motivation for scum to play the game we want them playing. If I've missed something/someone has something to say on these musings . . .

These are pretty much my feelings, but I can't see how Plan 3 makes the scum somehow more restricted, which is what Plum seems to be suggesting. Could you expand on this line of thought?

Let me see if I can trace my original line of thought here. I

think

what I was thinking was that the game we want scum to be playing . . . Hm. I'm not actually sure what I was thinking Plan 3 would do to motivate the scum to do what. Looking at the rules, I notice that no one in Prison can use a power on anyone outside Prison. There could be some use in sending the scummy in to Prison, and in addition to the other advantages of Plan 3, if there are any scum powerroles, they'll be out of commission to use on anyone outside Prison. At the same time, I don't think that that was the potential benefit I perceived in Plan 3. Can seem to recall exactly what I was thinking. If so, it probably was not a huge awesome epiphany and probably was closer to a minor, vague, weird fleeting thought I had. Sorry about that.

Narsis' defense of freeko basically boiled down to "he's not scum, he's just an ENORMOUS NOOB". In hindsight, he was probably right on most points. However, people who defend others rather than let them defend themselves scream scum to me. The scum know they're town, and know they're so dumb that they're attracting a whole lot of attention for being dumb. Chances are they're going to get themselves killed, and it will let you say "I told you so!". Which, hilariously enough, he did. Attempts to take the pressure off people (other than yourself) who are legitimately under investigation is a scumtell.
I'm willing to give town points to Plum and ortolan for their thorough analysis of freeko's posting. Both seemed to come up with different and original attacks, and neither seemed interested in starting a bandwagon.

I don't recal a thorough analysis made by myself of Freeko's posting, unless you mean that I thoroughly responded/refuted/etc. many of the posts he made, which is true. If you mean PBPA, I don't recall having done so myself, though Ortolan did do so.

You make a good point that should have occured to me already: Narsis thought Freeko was newb-town; apparently he was right. The post-by-post analysis of his newb-townieness was over-the-top, though, rather an overreaction. An overreaction in the defense of another player is something I'm more inclined to associate with scum, not a townie. Heck, I had a gut feeling he was newb-town too, and so did Ortolan, if I recall. But I felt no need to make a megapost analyzing everything Freeko did and trying to put it in a newb-town light. Not at all.

Noted

.

Unvote: DGB

Send: Narsis

Percy as I said - Gut.
I considered two to have wong because it was ages since people had voted.

I'm pretty sure DGB is scum. Only her claim has stopped me from unsending her and is it really that pro-town a claim?

My gut and analysis on you were null, Empking, until this post. Anyway, why did you send DGB in the first place? This reeks of scum scared that DGB's power is multi-shot, and an attack on DGB and attack on her claim? It's remotely possible she's scum, of course, but she's got a solid-looking claim there, and, to choose the more plausible case, as scum she'd not likely have wanted to send lurker-scum in to die, not at this point in the game when he wasn't under any suspicion anyway. You unvoted DGB but didn't unsend her. Why ' un'vote', and why not unsend if you're 'pretty sure she's scum? The whole point of Plan 2, which, if I'm correct, you're sending according to, is to send those you think are the most townie. I, for example, would under most circumstances not want to lynch an uncounter-claimed Doctor Day 1 who's been actig fairly scummy. But I might not put him down as one of my top townie players either. Why are you sending someone for a town/town pair (unless I'm wrong about that part) whom you think is likely scum?

So unless you've got prior knowledge of how the scum night kills work, and therefore you know DGB is scum based on her ability, then this is just bullshit. All you're doing here is putting the pieces in place to lead a "lynch" on DGB tomorrow.

QFTrufax.

Suspicion.

HOS: Empking

.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The last pair are instructed to say yes. If they do not, the daykills get used on them. Thus if any townies are selected in the scumpair they have incentive to say "yes" otherwise they are simply wasting town's resources in vigging them, rather than vigging anyone else who may turn up guilty from the investigations. This is why the plan is brilliant and lets us offload our two scummiest players already. Please tell me why you're all not supporting Plan 3. ABR, too, seeing as your plan of sending the 6 scummiest won't work because as has been shown by the previous five posts, there is nothing to enforce the system if the people in prison opt to say "no".

Their incentive to say 'yes' is that they don't trust the other person to say 'no'.

[Albert B. Rampage]

God damn, will you stop trying to control everything already? To hell with all these stupid plans. Just state which player you want to be sent, with who, and why. Keep it simple stupid will ya?

[Narsis]

God damn, will you stop trying to control everything already? To hell with all these stupid plans. Just state which player you want to be sent, with who, and why. Keep it simple stupid will ya?

i'm not sure why but something in me agrees with this post. even so, i have a feeling that it won't happen and that it probably wouldn't turn out too well if it did.

now then i'm little confused with the voting at the moment. if i'm reading it right some people are voting me because they think i'm townie and others because they think i'm scum. i really think it would be in the town's best interest to figure out whether i'm being sent as scum or townie. if you are senidng me as scum...i see a little problem and it's that i'm paired up with the person i see as the most pro-town in this game so far. i don't know about you guys, but i don't think having me and Plum paired together would end well for the town.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about our plans. I have come to the conclusion (again) that Plan 2 is optimal play, and anything other than that is reacting to unknown forces which can be massaged into whatever people like.

The scum have interference powers, and they'll use them - I can't think of why sending 4 townies and 2 scum is any

safer

than sending 6 townies, especially since there are so many problems with the scum/scum pair, and everyone seems to be assuming that we won't be sending scum on the first night anyway.

The scummy pair is actually best if it's one town and one scum. Town/town is horrible, especially if one of them decides to save their innocent butts and we have to hunt them down as scum. Scum/scum is potentially disastrous, but I can't see a scenario that's worse than a 2 scum, 2 townie swap, except for potential bussing, perhaps? I don't know.

The point is that sending one town and one scum is good, sending two town is horrible, and sending two scum is kinda meh. Ecto and freeko are already dead, and we have basically no info. Stephoscope died by accident. Conclusion: use the PD for getting power and information, and use the powers obtained to help us hunt scum. Those who say "I know MM will have something to dick with the setup" - how do you know? Oh sure, you'll use weasel words like "I'm pretty sure" or "suspect", but Plan 3 is just as uncertain as Plan 2 in both the risks that it presents and the possible benefits.

Most mafia games I'm in have had mostly town lynches, and the scum only come out towards the end. Why are we willing to send two people to their deaths, potentially killing

two townies per day

on top of the night kill, when the option is present to make our decisions based on more information?

Plan 3 advocates are trying to tell us that it's more of an incentive to scumhunt, or that it's more of a threat - we'll still have two dayvigs if we follow plan 2, and we'll have investigation data to pour over. It'll make our scumhunting better, and we won't be killing more people through ignorance and fear. It has the added benefit of giving us the power to police our plans, which the variation of send only two more scum does NOT give us (recently advocated by VRK and Moratorium). I also don't really see why scumhunting is inherently

better

than townhunting - also, can't we do both?



Stop complaining about how we're not playing "real mafia". Goddamn. Who cares whether this is "like other games" or not? Why is it good to try and mash this game into "just like regular mafia but with a mild twist"? It's entirely possible that this new game requires a new strategy. Anyone who can't stop moaning about how we're not playing this game right because it's new and different is both 1) trusting their own abilities to play 'regular' mafia (well, of course they are, they're

awesome

), implicitly assuming that the skills required for this new game and plan are radically different and 2) attempting to get out of really tackling strategy here, taking the tl;dr approach and trying to paint those that actually care about this game as distracting and scummish. If you want to play regular mafia, why the hell did you sign up for this game?

Plan 2 is the optimal strategy. Plan 3 is pretty good, and if everyone else wants plan 3, then that's OK with me I guess. Just make good arguments for it, rather than assuming that Plan 3 will be better at finding scum because it involves sending scum to prison right away. It's like an old person thinking that real mail is better than email because it arrives in an envelope,

just like it always did

, and this new stuff is all weird and frankly they don't want to bother with all this guff.

QFT.

[Abstract Actuary]

God damn, will you stop trying to control everything already? To hell with all these stupid plans. Just state which player you want to be sent, with who, and why. Keep it simple stupid will ya?

I understand that your schtick seems to be "pissed-off, play-by-the-seat-of-my-pants, f-you-guys-I-do-what-I-want." But frankly, either your taking the persona a bit too far in a way that benefits scum or you are scum hiding behind the persona. I think both are viable options.

Your plans and posts from the start have been suggestions, even demands, that the town follows your lead down a path that would ultimately benefit scum.

A couple that come to mind:

O.K. there's been a lot of garbage posted and I need to weigh in.

First of all, we aren't sending 6 players to prison. We are sending 2, and the reason for this is simple: the mafia almost certainly has 1-shot abilities, therefore its in their interest to shred the town as FAST AS POSSIBLE. What could go more wrong than have 3-day kills going around in addition to the possibility the prisoners kill each other. I've functioned for over 20 games with no pussy 'investigations' and I am perfectly confident that we can catch the mafia without burning ourselves as soon as the game starts. What kind of weak-minded person needs 3rd-party 'confirmation' (read: investigation) to send to prison who they think is suspicious?

You send who you don't want to see the next day; shit is real simple here guys. Think about this for a moment. If this were real, would you be worrying about who is townie, and pour all your resources into their untrustworthy hands, or would you want to send those sons of bitches you think are scum to prison?

Understand that people are dying every night. These are killers here. Let's not make it easy for them by wasting our time beating around the bush amongst ourselves, debating who is the most 'pro-town', when we should be out there putting these people away.

-You don't want the town to gather or use investigations! The obvious scum desire for this does not need to be detailed.

-You want the town to only send one pair. This strategy minimizes the towns ability to gain powers and increases the ratio of the mafia's controlled actions to the town's controlled actions. It just doesn't make sense.

God damn, will you stop trying to control everything already? To hell with all these stupid plans. Just state which player you want to be sent, with who, and why. Keep it simple stupid will ya?

So you don't want us to have a plan? Just send whoever we want to prison for conflicting reasons with no plan in mind? Some sending people for town reasons and others sending people for scum reasons and the result a random compilation of prison pairs that have no plan. Then, I presume that each prison pair is to simply think through and play out the prisoner's dilemma? In classic prisoner's dilemma fashion this could work out terribly for the prisoners, which in turn could mean it works out terribly for the town.

Now if everyone we send in with this strategy dies, how many scum would have to die for it to be a successful night for us? 2? How many tonight, since we'd only have 4 go in in that manner? 2 still? 1? I don't think 1 is enough, but 2 is a great night. Having 2 scum die overnight, especially tonight, has to be very unlikely.

[RossWilliam]

I got prodded, classes have been really picking up for the spring semester so I have been falling behind. Percy, I tend to play very non-confrontationally (is that even a word?) in the first stages of games. I like to be more of an observer. That combined with being a little busy does make me look like I'm actively lurking, but I am town. For the most part I've been making my points known and throwing out stuff here and there but I've been content to let other people talk and just piggyback of what I'm learning from them. Theres still alot of people in this game and theres a lot to follow but I'll do my best to actively scumhunt.

[Plum]

I got prodded, classes have been really picking up for the spring semester so I have been falling behind. Percy, I tend to play very non-confrontationally (is that even a word?) in the first stages of games. I like to be more of an observer. That combined with being a little busy does make me look like I'm actively lurking, but I am town. For the most part I've been making my points known and throwing out stuff here and there but I've been content to let other people talk and just piggyback of what I'm learning from them. Theres still alot of people in this game and theres a lot to follow but I'll do my best to actively scumhunt.

So when do you think you'll get around to answering Percy's question instead of just avoiding it by posting only to address the accusation of active lurking? The sort of thing you're doing right here is part of the reason Percy's suspicious of you and I'm beginning to become interested in his case on you.

And say, wasn't it you who suggested and officially requested to end the day after sending the millers?

[DrippingGoofball]

Plan vote: send scum pairs to the slammer.

[ortolan]

Percy gets big pro-town points for Post 459, I agree with most of it.

I am in favour of Plan 3 because I would be highly surprised if the mechanics of this game weren't designed to screw us up if we pursue an extension of exactly the same plan as was used in the original mini.

...so Plan 2 is better in theory, but the mod would know this, so would screw it up, so we should choose a plan that isn't optimal...? Smells like WIFOM. Let's just do the optimal plan. Also, see rant at top of this post. If you would care to explain to me how this isn't WIFOM, please go ahead.

It is entirely WIFOM, but I still think it is somewhat valid.

I think your attack on RossWilliam is reasonable and I would like to see him contribute more in response.

From what I know of Empking, he has a scummy meta. He was my scum partner in one game, he was scummy in that, and I'm in this and another ongoing game with him and he reads as scummy in both of them. That is obviously no excuse for not at least investigating him for anti-town play though.

I agree with Percy and Abstract Actuary about ABR. I find what he is advocating in Post 468 regarding just sending people in indiscriminately for whatever reasoning outright anti-town. It is of course quite possible he is using his aggressive meta to cover being scum this game.