Open 108 - Weak M.D. - Game over before 725

[GIEFF]

Well, you hadn't used a wink OR a nod in your previous 6 posts, so I guess you were due. I should have realized.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #1 of Day 3

roflcopter (1) <-~ Xtoxm
Xtoxm (1) <-~ roflcopter
ryan2754 (1) <-~ Empking

Not Voting (4) <-~ GIEFF, EsoMonty, camn, ryan2754

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch!

[camn]

EsoMonty: How dd you think the Hider role worked?

I'll be honest. I didn't read the role as I didn't get it and I have never worked with it before. I should have reread the roles before posting. But, I didn't. /shrug

So, two things. and I know I am nitpicky.. but I need clarity.

1) You didn't quite answer. How did you THINK it worked?

and

B)... am I getting this right.. You 'didn't get it' and had no experience with a Hider..... so you intentionally DIDN'T read the role description...?

Just testing my understanding here.

[EsoMonty]

1) I knew that the hider was allowed to hide behind people. I didn't get the fact that he was not able to be targeted. Just that he could find out town and mafia based on his survival.

2) I didn't read for comprehension. I glanced over it.

better?

[camn]

I guess it's better. Though I certainly don't approve of that kind of apathy.

a. Scum killed Korts
b. Scum killed pops
c. Scum no-killed

I think we can ignore c....

Why can we ignore c.?
I hadn't thought of it before.. but thinking of it now, a no-kill would have been a brilliant move for scum.... given that they had a decent read on who the power roles were.

I gotta reread Korts, see if he gave away his role! OR maybe they figured someone ELSE was the doc who happened to be targeting one of them.. or just played the numbers!! Like.. Geiff and Empking had 4 hypoDocs on them ... so maybe those two decided ONE of those four HAD to be the doc.. and risked the no-kill. Then RC just happened to get popped by pops.

Yeah.. I could see it. Maybe.

[ryan2754]

Vote: Ryan

Scum defended him.

Worst. Logic. Evar.

Scum have the ability to defend and attack whoever they want because they have more information than we do. Thus, this leads to the double bluff scenario. Am I defending my fellow scum from being lynched, or a townie to gain standing with the masses. Either way, your logic poses a sproblem and implies that if scum defends someone, then they are scum. With situations like this, you must also look at how "close" the person was to getting lynched that was defended/attacked, and also how hard the accuser/defender "pushed" their stance. For example, if a fellow mafia has a strong wagon against him, and he's at L-2 or L-1, and most likelky defending him will only put you in worse standing with the town, there is no point in even trying, but instead joining in to blend in better.
Simply put, either way, your simple logic of defense/attack from scum means that person is scum BLOWS, as there are so many other factors that are involved.

Xtoxm, I looked at your posts and noticed this one, the bolded is mine:

Well I think i've said most of them already, but:

Gamma looks as scum, but

wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town

.
Ryan - Town
Pop - Scum
Camn - Scum
BSG - Town
EM - Town

That's all i've developed so far.

I'm sorry, but I'm always skeptical of people who use language like that in their posts, as more often than not, they are scum. You use the same language in post 472. Not to mention your posts that hint at you understanding the inner workings of the scum decision process, as previously noted.

I'd like to get responses from both of these players, but at the the present moment, they are at the top of my suspicion list, with Empking at the top.

Vote: Empking

At ROFL: Sure, it may look back with regards to RC defending me, and getting Gamma lynched, but a lot of other folks have said that that looks to make me town, the way he pushed for my protection. It turns out that he was scum. He could have definitely gotten the lynch of Gamma, and then (had he not been confirmed scum and been the hider) used his defense of me as leverage if I was ever killed. Again, the double bluff scenario.

[roflcopter]

ok, i may have been wrong about ryan.

most likely scenario - xtoxm and camn

[EsoMonty]

At the moment I think Xtoxm is our best lynch.

He wouldn't have been surprised about gamma flipping town. He seems to have insider information about how scum work and he defended deadscum.

That is three different tells.

vote: xtoxm

[Empking]

Vote: Ryan

Scum defended him.

Worst. Logic. Evar.

Scum have the ability to defend and attack whoever they want because they have more information than we do. Thus, this leads to the double bluff scenario. Am I defending my fellow scum from being lynched, or a townie to gain standing with the masses. Either way, your logic poses a sproblem and implies that if scum defends someone, then they are scum. With situations like this, you must also look at how "close" the person was to getting lynched that was defended/attacked, and also how hard the accuser/defender "pushed" their stance. For example, if a fellow mafia has a strong wagon against him, and he's at L-2 or L-1, and most likelky defending him will only put you in worse standing with the town, there is no point in even trying, but instead joining in to blend in better.
Simply put, either way, your simple logic of defense/attack from scum means that person is scum BLOWS, as there are so many other factors that are involved.

Xtoxm, I looked at your posts and noticed this one, the bolded is mine:

Well I think i've said most of them already, but:

Gamma looks as scum, but

wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town

.
Ryan - Town
Pop - Scum
Camn - Scum
BSG - Town
EM - Town

That's all i've developed so far.

I'm sorry, but I'm always skeptical of people who use language like that in their posts, as more often than not, they are scum. You use the same language in post 472. Not to mention your posts that hint at you understanding the inner workings of the scum decision process, as previously noted.

I'd like to get responses from both of these players, but at the the present moment, they are at the top of my suspicion list, with Empking at the top.

Vote: Empking

At ROFL: Sure, it may look back with regards to RC defending me, and getting Gamma lynched, but a lot of other folks have said that that looks to make me town, the way he pushed for my protection. It turns out that he was scum. He could have definitely gotten the lynch of Gamma, and then (had he not been confirmed scum and been the hider) used his defense of me as leverage if I was ever killed. Again, the double bluff scenario.

You're voting me because I'm voting you, right?

Scum wouldn't defend town you because them defending you wouldn't have got them any townie points.

[roflcopter]

@ryan - the evidence you present against xtox is stronger than that against emp. why did you choose to vote emp and not x?

@emp - stop omgusing

i'm looking at this a new way. coyote probably didn't think he was likely to get lynched day two. in fact, if we assume for a moment ryan is town, i imagine the scum plan was to lynch

him

. it does in fact make sense for one scum to be defending ryan in this position.

i believe x is trying to link me to camn for two reasons - if i get lynched, my town flip will make any evidence against camn come into question, not just whatever bupkiss xtox is saying connects us. and if camnscum should die before me, well its great to have a fall guy isn't it?

camn really hasn't done any scumhunting any time recently. she's just been debating other peoples' understanding of the way the roles worked, or their opinions of likely scenarios for the scum night actions. smells like a serious case of information without analysis.

[GIEFF]

I guess it's better. Though I certainly don't approve of that kind of apathy.

a. Scum killed Korts
b. Scum killed pops
c. Scum no-killed

I think we can ignore c....

Why can we ignore c.?
I hadn't thought of it before.. but thinking of it now, a no-kill would have been a brilliant move for scum.... given that they had a decent read on who the power roles were.

I gotta reread Korts, see if he gave away his role! OR maybe they figured someone ELSE was the doc who happened to be targeting one of them.. or just played the numbers!! Like.. Geiff and Empking had 4 hypoDocs on them ... so maybe those two decided ONE of those four HAD to be the doc.. and risked the no-kill. Then RC just happened to get popped by pops.

Yeah.. I could see it. Maybe.

Well, I know that scum didn't no-kill, because Korts died. But I didn't think we had to discuss the possibility of a NK - why would scum do that? I don't want to get too heavily into the WIFOM aspects of night decisions, but nking in a game like this seems way too risky. Even if they knew that pops was the hider, NKing wouldn't do them any good, because even if pops were the only one to die last night, we would all know that RC was scum, based on the nature of the role.


I think we're all taking RC's long post way too much into our scumhunting considerations. I agree that there can be some clues there, but the fact that he defended ryan doesn't make ryan obvious town, and it doesn't make him obvious scum. There is plenty of other information to analyze; let's not use the words of deadscum as the sole factor in decisions on who is and isn't scum. Empking and Xtoxm seems to be on opposite end of this spectrum, but being so sure that it means one thing or the other looks scummy to me.


EsoMonty, you never responded to my first paragraph in post 455, which I'll post again below:

No, you didn't need to reiterate the case. But you never expressed agreement with it or suspicion of Gamma prior to your vote, so voting out of the blue to put him at L-2 was a bit odd. Scum doesn't vote for who they find suspicious; scum votes for people they think they can force a mislynch on. If it looks like you didn't actually find Gamma suspicious, then it's more likely to be the latter reason than the former.

Were you suspicious of Gamma before your vote but just didn't mention it? Or did you mention it somewhere that I missed?



I still don't agree with the logic supporting the quicklynch on day 2, and would like to hear from others who supported it, explaining their reasoning. More information is always better for the town.

[EsoMonty]

Sorry, I missed needing to respond to that paragraph. I did not think I posted that I was suspect of Gamma. I did however have them. It was hard not to suspect someone who was as evasive as he was Day 1. Had he answered half the question that were posed to him, I doubt he would have been lynched.

I am not sorry scum was lynched. Quickly or not. There was no need to wait for hypo claiming as both the reasons for it had died the night previous. I saw no reason to hesitate and felt foolish for not reading the hider role properly.

[camn]

camn really hasn't done any scumhunting any time recently. she's just been debating other peoples' understanding of the way the roles worked, or their opinions of likely scenarios for the scum night actions. smells like a serious case of information without analysis.

The beautiful irony of this paragraph is that it simply gives 2 pieces of information regarding 2 of my posts, with no analysis at all.

This reads to me like rolf is reacting to Xtoxm's allegations a little too hard.. desperately deflecting onto me, and OMGUS-ing Xtoxm without any kind of real justification.
Rolf, are you really THAT intimidated by Xtoxm's accusations?

Wow. the more I read it, the more bizarre your recent posts look.

Remember this?

actually i'm loving camn's analysis

camn is very obviously town...

Then.. your VERY NEXT mention of me is this:

most likely scenario - xtoxm and camn

What happened? Xtoxm got on your case. That is all.
Can you lay out what changed your mind?

Also, you didn't mention Xtoxm (or BadGuy) AT ALL until he started accusing you. Not ONCE day 1 OR day 2. Suddenly he is your #1 choice? Since your tunnel-vision on ryan didn't pay off.. I guess you need SOMEONE to go after.
Seriously, what changed your mind on him? I would like to see your case, if you have one.

[Xtoxm]

Yay Camn!

I was getting ready to self vote.

[roflcopter]

i have already given my case, but heyyy chainsaw defense

and xtoxm, i would think you would have learned your lesson by now, self voting is stupid

[Xtoxm]

NO U

[camn]

well, try telling me again, only coherently?

Plus, why you are at it, maybe you'll answer my other question? Re: ME.
PLUS, if you can pull your head out of the wiki for a second, could you explain how pointing out your totally unexplained changes in position is the "chain saw defense"?

[ryan2754]

Vote: Ryan

Scum defended him.

Worst. Logic. Evar.

Scum have the ability to defend and attack whoever they want because they have more information than we do. Thus, this leads to the double bluff scenario. Am I defending my fellow scum from being lynched, or a townie to gain standing with the masses. Either way, your logic poses a sproblem and implies that if scum defends someone, then they are scum. With situations like this, you must also look at how "close" the person was to getting lynched that was defended/attacked, and also how hard the accuser/defender "pushed" their stance. For example, if a fellow mafia has a strong wagon against him, and he's at L-2 or L-1, and most likelky defending him will only put you in worse standing with the town, there is no point in even trying, but instead joining in to blend in better.
Simply put, either way, your simple logic of defense/attack from scum means that person is scum BLOWS, as there are so many other factors that are involved.

Xtoxm, I looked at your posts and noticed this one, the bolded is mine:

Well I think i've said most of them already, but:

Gamma looks as scum, but

wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town

.
Ryan - Town
Pop - Scum
Camn - Scum
BSG - Town
EM - Town

That's all i've developed so far.

I'm sorry, but I'm always skeptical of people who use language like that in their posts, as more often than not, they are scum. You use the same language in post 472. Not to mention your posts that hint at you understanding the inner workings of the scum decision process, as previously noted.

I'd like to get responses from both of these players, but at the the present moment, they are at the top of my suspicion list, with Empking at the top.

Vote: Empking

At ROFL: Sure, it may look back with regards to RC defending me, and getting Gamma lynched, but a lot of other folks have said that that looks to make me town, the way he pushed for my protection. It turns out that he was scum. He could have definitely gotten the lynch of Gamma, and then (had he not been confirmed scum and been the hider) used his defense of me as leverage if I was ever killed. Again, the double bluff scenario.

You're voting me because I'm voting you, right?

Scum wouldn't defend town you because them defending you wouldn't have got them any townie points.

Umm, no I didn't vote for you because you voted me. I voted you because of your terrible logic to give someone a vote. Scum WOULD defend town especially if I were going to be lynched. And when the word came out that I was town, it would definetely score them town points.

ok, i may have been wrong about ryan.

most likely scenario - xtoxm and camn

Why do you think you are wrong about me?

@ryan - the evidence you present against xtox is stronger than that against emp. why did you choose to vote emp and not x?

@emp - stop omgusing

i'm looking at this a new way. coyote probably didn't think he was likely to get lynched day two. in fact, if we assume for a moment ryan is town, i imagine the scum plan was to lynch

him

. it does in fact make sense for one scum to be defending ryan in this position.

i believe x is trying to link me to camn for two reasons - if i get lynched, my town flip will make any evidence against camn come into question, not just whatever bupkiss xtox is saying connects us. and if camnscum should die before me, well its great to have a fall guy isn't it?

camn really hasn't done any scumhunting any time recently. she's just been debating other peoples' understanding of the way the roles worked, or their opinions of likely scenarios for the scum night actions. smells like a serious case of information without analysis.

I voted Empking because I found his apparent "logic" for voting me to be a lot more unsound and pro-scum than some wording choices, tbh.

Well, I know that scum didn't no-kill, because Korts died. But I didn't think we had to discuss the possibility of a NK - why would scum do that? I don't want to get too heavily into the WIFOM aspects of night decisions, but nking in a game like this seems way too risky. Even if they knew that pops was the hider, NKing wouldn't do them any good, because even if pops were the only one to die last night, we would all know that RC was scum, based on the nature of the role.


I think we're all taking RC's long post way too much into our scumhunting considerations. I agree that there can be some clues there, but the fact that he defended ryan doesn't make ryan obvious town, and it doesn't make him obvious scum. There is plenty of other information to analyze; let's not use the words of deadscum as the sole factor in decisions on who is and isn't scum. Empking and Xtoxm seems to be on opposite end of this spectrum, but being so sure that it means one thing or the other looks scummy to me.

Paragraph 1: Yeah, but Couldn't Korts die because he protected you, if you were scum? At that point, it would be an obvious choice to No Kill, because if you killed, then three people would have died and we would have two scum members foretold.
Paragraph 2: Agreed.


ROFL looks pretty deep in poo right now. I would also like to hear the answers to Camn's questions.

With regards to the quick vote vs. prolongued vote. Seeing as we all knew, given the situation that RC was scum, there's not point in waiting at that point. Scum know that RC is going to lose, and they will post accordingly as they feel fit not to give any information away. Again, double-bluff scenario. I feel as though the information during that round we have gathered would be null and void for that such reason.

[camn]

ok, i may have been wrong about ryan.

most likely scenario - xtoxm and camn

Why do you think you are wrong about me?

Good question!

Add that to the list.

[Empking]

@emp - stop omgusing
.

When did I OMGUS, quotes please.

[GIEFF]

Well, I know that scum didn't no-kill, because Korts died. But I didn't think we had to discuss the possibility of a NK - why would scum do that? I don't want to get too heavily into the WIFOM aspects of night decisions, but nking in a game like this seems way too risky. Even if they knew that pops was the hider, NKing wouldn't do them any good, because even if pops were the only one to die last night, we would all know that RC was scum, based on the nature of the role.


I think we're all taking RC's long post way too much into our scumhunting considerations. I agree that there can be some clues there, but the fact that he defended ryan doesn't make ryan obvious town, and it doesn't make him obvious scum. There is plenty of other information to analyze; let's not use the words of deadscum as the sole factor in decisions on who is and isn't scum. Empking and Xtoxm seems to be on opposite end of this spectrum, but being so sure that it means one thing or the other looks scummy to me.

Paragraph 1: Yeah, but Couldn't Korts die because he protected you, if you were scum? At that point, it would be an obvious choice to No Kill, because if you killed, then three people would have died and we would have two scum members foretold.
Paragraph 2: Agreed.

You said "at that point." At what point? If the scum knew that the real doc was visiting one of them, then I agree that the correct play would be to NK. But how would scum know that?

--------------------
Xtoxm, can you explain how you simultaneously thought Gamma was scum, but wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town? That looks like you are distancing yourself from a lynch, pre-emptively defending yourself if he flips town.

Ok, looked at it. The way he calls rofl and camn scum supports my theory of rofl-camn pair. I can see him calling 2 buddies scum and a town scum, and pushing the the towns one lynch.

This is silly. I can also see him calling 2 buddies town, or 1 buddy town and 1 buddy scum. You aren't attempting to analyze information to come to a valid conclusion, you are analyzing information just to support your previously-held ideas.

The reasons you've given for your rofl vote:

Vote Rofl cos he's keeps trying to get who I thinks town lynched, and cos I think he's scum.

He defended ryan quite blatantly, and wasn't expecting to die, which make ryan pretty much confirmed town to me. Scum doesn't go that far out of their way to defend a buddy who a lot of people are finding scummy.

And rofl still pushes for his lynch, so i'm quite confident rofl is scum now.

So your case against rofl is based on the fact that he wants to lynch ryan? And not because you think it's scummy to assume RC's defending is genuine (which I do think is a scummy assumption), but because you believe the defending is the opposite, and that you must be right, and that rofl must be scum? Even if you are right and ryan is town, just because rofl doesn't think so doesn't make him scum;he could just be a confused townie.

I don't think your reasons for voting rofl are genuine.
-------------------

@ryan - the evidence you present against xtox is stronger than that against emp. why did you choose to vote emp and not x?

This is a very strange question. It isn't clear to me that one case is stronger than the other; that looks like your own bias. Do you think that ryan's reasons for voting Emp are not the ones he presented?

i'm looking at this a new way. coyote probably didn't think he was likely to get lynched day two. in fact, if we assume for a moment ryan is town, i imagine the scum plan was to lynch him. it does in fact make sense for one scum to be defending ryan in this position.

You and Empking were the only two still-living players who voted for ryan for much of the day yesterday. Do you suspect Empking as being mafia? If not, then what makes you think ryan is the scum-target? Like Xtoxm, this looks more like analyzing information to support a previously-held theory than analyzing information objectively to reach truth.

-----------------

I don't see why ANY of you are so sure that RC's defense means one thing or the other. RC and Empking seems convinced that RC was defending a scumbuddy, and Xtoxm seems convinced that RC was pretending to defend a townie in order to implicate him later on.

EsoMonty and camn, what are your thoughts on RC's defending ryan?

[EsoMonty]

I think RC's whole post is moot.

It was him trying to earn town points. It would have worked if pops hadn't hid behind him.

[ryan2754]

You said "at that point." At what point? If the scum knew that the real doc was visiting one of them, then I agree that the correct play would be to NK. But how would scum know that?

I don't see why ANY of you are so sure that RC's defense means one thing or the other. RC and Empking seems convinced that RC was defending a scumbuddy, and Xtoxm seems convinced that RC was pretending to defend a townie in order to implicate him later on.

Paragraph 1. I think I might be a little confused. Now that I think about it, the wolves wouldn't know if the doctor died, because he gives the mod the information he chooses at the same time as the wolves. Thus, the wolves (unless they knew who was the doc), would still lynch someone and had he protected a mafia member, we then could use it as conclusive evidence. I'm sorry, I was under the assumption that the wolves knew about him being the doctor before they got their lynch, which seems like an incorrect assumption.

Paragraph 2: Agreed. Although I know my own role, we can't use what RC, a confirmed scum, says about me. He again has more information than the town, and will act accordingly. However, because I know my role, RC was defending me in the occurrence that I get lynched, and am revealed as town, so he would earn town points. But yes, in the grand scheme of things, we can't look at what RC said as gospel. So in essence, I agree with Eso.

[camn]

Re: RC.. It was bullsh#$, of course.

He knew who the scum were and weren't, and was trying to setup some mislynches in the future by shaming all these people who were accusing 'poor ryan'. That was easy to do because he knew for sure that ryan was town. The rest of us have to figure it out on our own.

It is especially obvious when he came after me for "attacking" ryan. I simply replaced in, picked one of the two major lynch candidates, and started asking questions. Not even unreasonable questions. By the time RC came in, I wasn't even that interested in ryan anymore. Yet that is his entire basis for judgment.

So clearly.. all bull. Does it clear ryan? Maybe, maybe not. I read ryan as prob-town INDEPENDENT of RC, based solely on his answers to my questions. That can change, of course... depending on Ryan, not RC.

[Incognito]

Bumping vote count.