[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Adel]

Lovers has been discussed to death - I've never seen you address the "Town must lynch unanimously two days in a row" problem.

That is probably because it isn't a problem. The town doesn't have to lynch unanimously two days in a row. The mafia goons are lovers, hence the name. The game can only last two days. If scum is lynched on either of those two days the town wins.


Is there a problem I am not seeing?

F&E&E&TOG is awfully swingy, assuming cross-kills go through. Fire and Ice is only borderline Normal, because of the way cross-kills go through.

I believe that swingy is an acceptable attribute for a game, especially an open game.

Fire and Ice was originally ok'd by Thesp, and it has been run three (4?) times now. Why the objection to it now? I don't think it would be hard to rewrite the mechanic and role PMs to make it appear more "normal". Is a lack of being "Normal" enough a problem you have with other setups?

Are you going to address the Empking's Alt problem?

While farside hasn't weighed in on why she put it in the queue, I am quite confident that it had more to do with JDodge's reputation and experience than a nomination by Empking's Alt.

I still maintain that JDodge's experiment was fraud, and has no business being part of a fair critique of the Open games system

What IS the current process, or is like Title Fairy?

it is like the Title Fairy... isn't it?

[Adel]

Lovers has been discussed to death - I've never seen you address the "Town must lynch unanimously two days in a row" problem.

While I agree with you (and have raised the point), it's "Town must lynch unanimously once in two days."

an odd number of players in lylo

always

requires every extant townie to vote for scum. 4/4 townies are required for a successful day 1 lynch, but that (along with scum daytalking) is part of what makes up for the 60% EV and the nightless.

[SensFan]

an odd number of players in lylo

always

requires every extant townie to vote for scum.

But the game doesn't usually START like that.

4/4 townies are required for a successful day 1 lynch, but that (along with scum daytalking) is part of what makes up for the 60% EV and the nightless.

Like I said, I'm not positive its a problem (and happen to really like the set-up), but I figured it should be discussed anyways.

[Adel]

EBWOQ:

an odd number of players in

lylo

always

almost always requires every extant townie to vote for scum.

@ sens: adding a townie, removing the nightless, and possibly removing the scum daytalking, probably wouldn't change the balance much, but the night phase would stall actively a little, and the threat of NK would discourage some players from being highly active and as pro-town as possible during day 1.

[SensFan]

True. Further support for the fact that, whether anything is changed or not, the more opinions the better.

[Lord Gurgi]

I don't see what the big fuss is about. JDodge didn't really ruin anything, he just pointed the flaw out in practice instead of raising his concerns. I'm fairly sure that if he had done the latter he would have been ignored. And anyway, the setup he proposed was clearly designed to end quickly while still proving the point.

BTW I agree with shaft.ed. More tried and tested games, less experimental unless thoroughly discussed and approved.

This. Nobody listens to JDodge whining. Heck, I don't, but he's right startlingly more often than he's given credit for.

[Guardian]

Thanks Plum. Now in the right thread:

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

[Adel]

I don't see what the big fuss is about. JDodge didn't really ruin anything, he just pointed the flaw out in practice instead of raising his concerns. I'm fairly sure that if he had done the latter he would have been ignored. And anyway, the setup he proposed was clearly designed to end quickly while still proving the point.

BTW I agree with shaft.ed. More tried and tested games, less experimental unless thoroughly discussed and approved.

This. Nobody listens to JDodge whining. Heck, I don't, but he's right startlingly more often than he's given credit for.

Fuck that.

I

listen to JDodge. I really respect his mafiascum and scumchat knowledge and experience. When he disagrees with me, especially on the balance of small games and endgame theory, I learned to expect that he would probably end up being right. In the past I've been unusually (for me) willing to take his word for it. I feel disappointed and a little betrayed.

~~~

moving on, I think that there is a consensus that "

more tried and tested games, less experimental unless thoroughly discussed and approved

" is a good idea.

Additionally, I think that people who nominate games generally need to take better care of their babies and make sure those darlings get either get reworked into something usable or drowned in the river. I'm going to start withdrawing my ideas that I think have failed. I'm also going to try to give more feedback to other people's ideas and I'll probably going be a little more stingy about nominating games.

[Adel]

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

why did you use the "mandatory lynches and NKs" part?

[Empking]

~~~

Nominate Carbon 14

2 Mafia Goons or Werewolves
1 Cop (Only gets guilty on Mafia Goon)
1 Seer (Only gets guilty on Werewolf)
3 Townies
?

Second

- This set-up is the win.

[Korts]

Impotence Mafia

Thanks for reminding me; after the game had started an inherent flaw occurred to me.

Impotence

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Roleblocker
2 Compulsive Blank Vigs (shoot blanks, kill never goes through)
1 Compulsive Vig
1 Pro-Town Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies

The blank vigs will, under most scenarios, know after N1 whether their kill can go through or not. This game needs more blockers, or a protective role.

[Empking's Alt]

Flay: Why shouldn't I be able to nominate set ups?

[Max]

Wheels on the C9+2

2 Mafia (50% chance of 1 being Bus Driver)
0 or 1 Cop (50% chance of occurrence)
0 or 1 Bus Driver (50% Chance of occurrence)
5 to 7 town

What happens when both bus drivers target one another?

If you mean what happens when they both target the same two people, they go back to how they were.

Bus Drivers Can't Target Themselves

[Korts]

Thanks Plum. Now in the right thread:

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

I'd say either one more townie or cop head start would be better.

[Goatrevolt]

Thanks Plum. Now in the right thread:

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

I'd say either one more townie or cop head start would be better.

Cop head start wouldn't make a huge difference, being a 1-shot ability. Unless, of course, I'm missing something and optimal strategy involves a blind firing N0.

The town feels underpowered to me in this setup. I like the odd number of players, based on forcing a lynch + NK every night (makes things much cleaner), but I feel like a 1-shot cop is not enough town power to balance the ratio of scum-town. If mountainous is mostly balanced at 2:10, then I don't think a 1-shot cop is enough to shift the balance to 3:8. What about adding in a 1-shot watcher/tracker type role as well?

[Korts]

Cop head start wouldn't make a huge difference, being a 1-shot ability. Unless, of course, I'm missing something and optimal strategy involves a blind firing N0.

I know. It adds a layer of thought for the cop; I was actually going to say night start first, but realized that with 10 players going into day 1 with 3 mafia it'd be mylo D2 with one mislynch.

I agree with Goat though that town is seemingly underpowered. But the concept is to have only one one-shot ability in the whole game bar mafia kills, as far as I understand--and an additional watcher/tracker would ruin the whole thing. So my idea is turn 1 mafia into vanilla townie, like so:

2 mafia
1 one-shot cop
8 vanilla townies

mandatory lynch, nk

[JDodge]

Don't Cut The Blue Wire

2 Townies
1 SK
1 Mafiate
1 Bomb
1 One-Shot Bulletproof
Nightkills compulsory

This one should fix pretty much all of the issues of Red Wire while maintaining the basic concept, and in fact improve the basic concept greatly.

[Caboose]

I'm reluctant to nominate this.

[somestrangeflea]

Don't Cut The Blue Wire

2 Townies
1 SK
1 Mafiate
1 Bomb
1 One-Shot Bulletproof
Nightkills compulsory

This one should fix pretty much all of the issues of Red Wire while maintaining the basic concept, and in fact improve the basic concept greatly.

TOO SOON.

[SensFan]

Wheels on the C9+2

2 Mafia (50% chance of 1 being Bus Driver)
0 or 1 Cop (50% chance of occurrence)
0 or 1 Bus Driver (50% Chance of occurrence)
5 to 7 town

What happens when both bus drivers target one another?

If you mean what happens when they both target the same two people, they go back to how they were.

Bus Drivers Can't Target Themselves

What if X is a Mafia Driver, Y is a Town Driver, and the following happens:

X targets Y, Z
Y targets X, Z

X targets Y, Z
Y targets X, W

X targets Z, W
Y targets V, W

X targets Y, Z
Y targets W, V

X targets Y, Z
Y targets Z, W

I think that covers all cases involving multiple Bus Drivers...

[Guardian]

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

why did you use the "mandatory lynches and NKs" part?

I don't want NL-ing or NK-ing to be valid strategies.

I want there to be an odd number of players every single game day, that is a balancing factor in the town's favor -- a lower percentage of players will be required for lynches, so scum can manipulate lynches less.

I'd say either one more townie or cop head start would be better.

I don't think another townie would be useful, I think that having an odd number of townies is better for the town than even. I also do not want to give someone the chance to completely screw over/unbalance the game by randomly shooting their one-shot cop ability on night 0.

The town feels underpowered to me in this setup. I like the odd number of players, based on forcing a lynch + NK every night (makes things much cleaner), but I feel like a 1-shot cop is not enough town power to balance the ratio of scum-town. If mountainous is mostly balanced at 2:10, then I don't think a 1-shot cop is enough to shift the balance to 3:8. What about adding in a 1-shot watcher/tracker type role as well?

I have a couple of points... I've never really understood why 2:10 is supposed to be balanced. I've always wondered if optimal strategy there would be for one mafia to claim start of day 1. The remaining mafia member would have no one to tie himself to -- there are no links to look for. More links to look for between players is easier for town.

This game is like 2:10 except more balanced in the town's favor. There are more links to look for, and there will always be an odd number of players. Moreover, the one shot cop adds interests to the game. How long can he save it? Should he claim on an innocent (imo not necessarily, at least not immediately). Should he claim on a guilty (likely immediately, but saving it a day or two has merit). 3 scum also opens the door to scum counter claiming, which would add interest to the game.

The cop is the "one shot" at impacting the game positively, and there being one one-shot cop adds quite a deal of dimension to the game. Games in general are too complex. One power-role is enough to make for an interesting game.

[Korts]

I don't think another townie would be useful, I think that having an odd number of townies is better for the town than even. I also do not want to give someone the chance to completely screw over/unbalance the game by randomly shooting their one-shot cop ability on night 0.

Yeah, I realized after giving more thought to it that that probably was the concept. See post 165 for my revised suggestion. Although it's still an even number of vanillas, with the cop it's 9:2. You're right, cop head start's a bad idea on second thought... Day start should do it much better.

[mith]

I have a couple of points... I've never really understood why 2:10 is supposed to be balanced. I've always wondered if optimal strategy there would be for one mafia to claim start of day 1. The remaining mafia member would have no one to tie himself to -- there are no links to look for. More links to look for between players is easier for town.

This game is like 2:10 except more balanced in the town's favor. There are more links to look for, and there will always be an odd number of players. Moreover, the one shot cop adds interests to the game. How long can he save it? Should he claim on an innocent (imo not necessarily, at least not immediately). Should he claim on a guilty (likely immediately, but saving it a day or two has merit). 3 scum also opens the door to scum counter claiming, which would add interest to the game.

The cop is the "one shot" at impacting the game positively, and there being one one-shot cop adds quite a deal of dimension to the game. Games in general are too complex. One power-role is enough to make for an interesting game.

Er...

1. 2:10 isn't "balanced", it favors the scum EV-wise, but it's a compromise between game size, having a scum group rather than a lone scum, and balance. 35% is fair, since we expect the town to do better than the EV would suggest (so far they have done much worse, though the sample size is not yet significant).

2. I welcome you to try your strategy if we are ever in a 2:10 game, you are scum, and I am not... your suggestion would make it difficult on the town in that there would be much less to look for, but the swing in EV having one less scum is

huge

(a D1 scum lynch moves it from 35% to 59%).

3. If you think 2:10 is in favor of the Mafia, why on earth would you think that adding another Mafia and a one-shot Cop would swing the balance toward the town?

2 Mafia, a 1-shot Cop, and 6/8 Townies would be playable. Heck, I don't have a problem with games that are unbalanced every now and then; give the townies a real challenge sometimes. But 3 Mafia in a small game requires significant power to balance.

[hohum]

Don't Cut The Blue Wire

2 Townies
1 SK
1 Mafiate
1 Bomb
1 One-Shot Bulletproof
Nightkills compulsory

This one should fix pretty much all of the issues of Red Wire while maintaining the basic concept, and in fact improve the basic concept greatly.

TOO SOON.

Nominate

[Caboose]

Don't Cut The Blue Wire

2 Townies
1 SK
1 Mafiate
1 Bomb
1 One-Shot Bulletproof
Nightkills compulsory

This one should fix pretty much all of the issues of Red Wire while maintaining the basic concept, and in fact improve the basic concept greatly.

TOO SOON.

Nominate

Antinominate

I don't like how the town can win off of the mafiate and the SK killing each other. That doesn't really take any skill on the town's part.
Anything to solve that?