Open 108 - Weak M.D. - Game over before 725

[GIEFF]

EsoMonty:

Your day-1 behavior towards ryan and Gamma was odd, as I've already stated. You random-voted ryan, then unvoted, than re-voted ryan, saying "he's all you've got."

Then there was the suspicious jump onto the Gamma-wagon, as I mentioned yesterday. You hardly mentioned him at ALL before you voted him, and when you did it was related to how he felt about ryan.

I very much liked your day 3 behavior, though; you were on the camn wagon very early, and asked Xtoxm and me both to contribute. You answered my questions about your behavior about Gamma well, too.

--------
ryan:

I was the one who halted the early bandwagon on you, but as I have said before, I may have been too hasty. I saw the wagon grow very fast for very poor reasons, and so assumed there was at least one scum on it.

But looking back now, all four people on the wagon were TOWN.


You did almost no scumhunting on day 1, just threw more dirt at Gamma. On day 3, you made a great post defending yourself and attacking Empking, but there was little else you contributed.

This post strikes me as very fishy, too, ryan. You followed camn-scum onto a rofl vote without any reasoning whatsoever. The only thing you said about rofl prior to your vote was "his silence isn't helpful."

I didn't like you trying to create a false dilemma. You tried to make it look like an either/or situation, both of which would mean you were town. I also didn't like how you said "ROFL seems extremely pro-town" soon after putting him at L-1 without any reasoning.
-----


So right now, I am leaning towards ryan being the final scum. I plan on going back through all of camn/BlakAdders and RedCoyote/BSG's interactions with both of you, and urge both of you to do the same. Hopefully this will lead to another rofl-type revelation.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #1 of Day 5

Not Voting (3) <-~ GIEFF, EsoMonty, ryan2754

With 3 alive, it takes 2 votes to lynch!

[ryan2754]

Personally I am extremely surprised the last wolf NKed Empking, as I feel he was the last mafia, and I'm sure many people would have thought the same. I personally thought Gieff was going to get NKed, but again, I am wrong. I will look over the thread, when I have time (which probably won't be until tomorrow) and then post who I think deserves a vote.

[ryan2754]

Voting Patterns:

Caboose/Magisterrain/Empking (town) - ryan2754, N/A, ryan2754, ryan2754, DEAD
Badguy/Xtoxm (town) - Gamma, RC, Camn, Xtoxm, DEAD
Roflcopter (town) - ryan2754, RC, Camn, DEAD
BlakAdder/Camn (scum) - N/A, N/A, Camn, DEAD
Clausewitz/Netlava (town) - Gamma, RC, DEAD
BSG/Sekinj/RedCoyote (scum) - Gamma, N/A, DEAD
Pops (Hider) - Korts, DEAD
Korts (Doc) - Gamma, DEAD
Gamma (town) - ryan2754, DEAD
EsoMonty - Gamma, RC, Camn, Xtoxm,
Ryan - Gamma, RC, N/A, Xtoxm
GIEFF - Gamma, N/A, N/A, N/A
Round 1, both GIEFF and Eso bust town.
Round 2, Eso on RC, as hammer.


Stuff in Sequential order:
Gieff was extremely helpful in building the cornerstones for the hypo-claiming, which got us a scum, if not two.
ROFL makes a case out of Camn, and his post 119 on re-read is interesting, given the current game status:

gieff is obvtown by this point. esomonty is tickling my scumdar.

@GIEFF: I voted ryan because of his mistating the reason that I voted Gamma. I think that's opportunistic.

I am unsure of how I feel about ryan at the moment. I don't have a good idea on where to vote. So, I am going to stay unvoted at the moment. Allow myself the ability to reread the entire thread again and then come back to a vote.

^Fencesitting, +scumpoints

I'd like to know why Gamma is instructing NetLava to lead a lynch on him if he goes inactive.

Responds to fencesitting with vote on me.

Gieff big on Gamma.

Thanks for the prods, Incognito.

gieff just struck me as being TOO town. also, i didnt like his nitpicking with badguy. badguy warranted suspision but the constant back and forth just made it seem like gieff was trying to get bad reasoning out of someone and then call that person scum based on bad reasoning. townies have bad reasoning all the time, despite what some will say.

I like to press as much as possible on things I find that may be scummy. Not only does it provide opportunities for people to mess up or crack under pressure, but it's interesting to see who comes to the defense of the person I'm questioning, and who piles on. This sort of information is invaluable on later days once we start knowing people's alignments and roles after lynches and NK's. Who defended scum? Who piled on innocents? Which people did known scum attack? Which people did known scum defend? Answers to these questions become vital in the later stages of the game.


BlakAdder said the following on the 8th, in his most recent post:

Still here. Nothing to say at the moment.

His post prior to this was on the 2nd, six days before that. So in the last 9 days, he has posted exactly once, and simply to say "I'm still here." This is very scummy.

Unvote

Vote: BlakAdder

Votes BlakAder early in game.

Eso explains his vote for me.

GIEFF responds to Eso, sees me as scummy.

Eso uses Newbie Card.

Korts attacks Eso.

GIEFF constantly gives vote summaries. Unvotes Camn, votes Gamma.

Camn says GIEFF is internet star, and eso is meh.

RC FOS's EsoMonty, then gives him credit, and finds GIEFF as town.

Eso attacked by GIEFF.

Eso not suspecting GIEFF.

Eso suspects Xtoxm.

Camn calls RC's post as BS. This makes me lean towards it being truth, for some reason.

Eso suspects Xtoxm again and ROFL as well, two confirmed cits.

Xtoxm sees Eso as town.

Eso jumps at Xtoxm.

Xtoxm certain Eso is town.

Doesn't question ROFL anymore, sees Gieff as town still, and looking at Xtoxm/Camn pair. Also early on Camn wagon.

GIEFF also sees Xtoxm/Camn pair, but sort of fencesits with it.

Based on the voting, GIEFF would much more seem as final scum, as Eso has made cases and been early in bandwagons, where GIEFF, well never got a vote around.

On the flip side, Eso has made cases on a lot of townies, yet plays newb card. Gieff however has been helpful with vote counts and such.

Camn saw Eso as Meh, and GIEFF as town.
RC saw Eso as FOS, then gave him slack, and GIEFF as town.
Camn says RC's post as BS.
Although I want to take this with a grain of salt, it is interesting, particularly where RC backs off on Eso. Both say GIEFF is town, and I am slightly inclined to believe them, but at the same time could be in cahoots.

So wow, I am still at odds with myself. It sucks not being able to cast a vote I feel, since then scum could easily jump on it and win.

Need to sleep on it.

[ryan2754]

Not much over the past few days besides me. Prods, mod?

[Incognito]

Prods going out to EsoMonty and GIEFF.

[EsoMonty]

Picking up prod.

Sorry I haven't been here.


I think GIEFF brings up an excellent point on the number of confirmed townies that were on the Ryan bandwagon.

And, I think ryan brings up the point on that both Mafia members saw GIEFF as town and me as suspect/nuetral. But how did they see Ryan?

I am currently leaning to ryan being the final scum as well.

[GIEFF]

ryan, does that list include all of the two scums' interactions with the three of us?

[GIEFF]

I think this is a complete record of the deadscum referring to the three remaining players. Please let me know if I left something out, or summarized a post poorly.

------


BlakAdder/camn:

Random votes GIEFF

Says votes is "slightly" serious

And then he went into lurk-mode, and was replaced by camn.

camn asks ryan to explain the hypoclaim, calls GIEFF an "internet superstar," calls EsoMonty "pretty good", and says she can't see the case on ryan, but finds his latest post scummy as he hasn't been contributing much.

camn again asks ryan about hypoclaiming strategy, and hypo-targets GIEFF

camn says ryan gave a decent answer, but seemed to be zoning out, as scum may do. She also says she has to "think about him for a bit."

camn tells EsoMonty that she just hasn't gotten around to Gamma or EsoMonty yet, and that she suspects everyone.

camn asks EsoMonty how he thinks the hider role works. camn also says that she agrees that ryan is not likely to be RC's scumbuddy.

camn questions EsoMonty about why he didn't understand the hider role.

camn says she guesses that EsoMonty's explanation makes him look better. She also says that we can't rule out the possibility that scum no-killed the night we lost both our power roles.

camn says she sees ryan as prob-town, but only for now, and is non-commital.

camn says (in "d") that she did not revise her opinion on ryan.

----

BSG/RedCoyote:

Calls ryan scummy. Asks GIEFF why he think Gamma is scummier than Badguy. Says he doesn't think either Gamma or Badguy is scummy.

BSG agrees with Korts that my idea of letting the town choose who starts the hypoclaiming is a bad idea.

Responds to GIEFF's questions (in 227).

This was BSG's final post, and RC replaced in.

Red Coyote's monster-post.

This is the only post of substance he made before he got lynched. I'll try to summarize what he says about us three:

Agrees with ryan that he will go with the flow about hyoclaiming.
Says he nods his head in agreement with GIEFF, pops, and Korts.
Tells GIEFF why he isn't interested in the hypoclaiming system.
Says that Korts' claim that ryan's wagon was scum-ridden is "the best observation in the game." We now know that RC KNEW there was no scum on the wagon, and was lying, using this lie as a justification to defend ryan.
Accuses GIEFF of attacking BadGuy to distract the town from ryan's vote.
Says GIEFF (and pops and Korts) have helped keep the town chugging along.
Says GIEFF is doing well to attack Eso.
Says pops' difficulty in reading the thread is not due to GIEFF.
Says he thinks GIEFF's nitpicking with Badguy was more about scoping reactions than suspecting Badguy

(it was not - I was actually suspicious of Badguy)

Groans at rofl saying he remembers why ryan was a good lynch.
Asks EsoMonty to explain why he (Eso) is happy with his vote on ryan.
Says he sees ryan as towny, and a ryan-lynch is a horrible alternative to a Gamma-lynch.
Repeatedly questions Eso about why he can't explain his vote for ryan.
Asks Eso why he hypo-hid behind someone he suspected, as this tells the mafia that Eso is not the hider.
Says he fears the ryan-attackers are trying to force a quick ryan-lynch before the replacements realize what is going on.
Tells ryan that Eso should be his #1 target.
Calls his scum-buddy camn "another ryan-attacker"
Says that Eso's latest posts seem more pro-town and earned him some points.
Says that he is in favor of giving GIEFF control of all votes, hypos, and discussion.
Says ryan has been helpful and answered questions.
Says Eso is saying more pro-town things.

Note: he was referring to Eso moving his vote from ryan to Gamma, which ironically is the main reason I found Eso scummy yesterday.

Says ryan is an asset to the town by making bold stances in the thread by using logic and sense.
Hypo-protects GIEFF
Calls GIEFF the most townie and most helpful. Says he wishes I would pressure Eso and rofl more.
Says he feels bad for ryan, who RC feels is the unfair tar
Says Eso went from being the scummiest to neutral.
Says GIEFF is partially on his townie-list for attacking Eso.

----------


I'll post what I think about this in a subsequent post.

[ryan2754]

My list was all inclusive on how I saw the game, and what relevant information I believe there was. I know you both find me the most suspicious, but both of you are afraid to throw a vote out, which is completely understandable given the circumstance. After looking it over, i really think Gieff is the last mafia, given his inclination to not vote these last two rounds,w hereas Eso joined bandwagons early. Thus, I find GIEFF as last scum.

[GIEFF]

I find the below 3 posts by camn to implicate ryan as a scumbuddy:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 58#1450458
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92#1469392
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 09#1490909

She is very wishy-washy, and it seems as though she doesn't want to take a stand either way.

I don't see anything from camn that implicates Eso as a scumbuddy, and there is the fact that Eso was on the camn-wagon so quickly. This could have been a bus, though; rofl's case may have looked so strong to scum-Eso that he figured he'd hop on the wagon and earn some townie-points.
----
RC's post has a bit more to analyze.

The fact that he said he liked me attacking Eso makes Eso less likely to be RC's scumbuddy. This isn't direct distancing or bussing, it is indirect; it looks like he is trying to manipulate people into attacking Eso rather than just calling Eso scummy and then moving on, as camn did to BSG.

He defends ryan quite a bit, but to such a large degree and so obviously that I can't really see why he would link himself so strongly to a scumbuddy. Maybe he is trying to out-WIFOM us, going so far over the top that we think "there's no way he would be so obvious." This has been my thinking so far, but the fact that different posters went different directions (Xtoxm was SURE it meant ryan was town, and Empking was SURE it meant ryan was scum) reveals that we can't really be sure what this means. I think that if anything, it makes ryan less likely to be RC's scumbuddy, but one thing is clear; RC wanted it to be obvious that he was defending ryan.

It is also odd that he asks Eso to explain his vote on ryan. He is talking about his scumbuddy in one way here, either asking his scumbuddy to explain his vote on a townie, or asking a townie to explain his vote on his scumbuddy. I see the latter as more likely.

And later, RC tells ryan that he should be attacking Eso. Again, this is either RC telling his scumbuddy to attack a townie, or telling a townie to attack his scumbuddy. Distancing is one thing, but telling others to vote for your scumbuddy doesn't seem like something scum would do.

RC talking to Eso about why it's bad play to hypo-hide behind somebody you think is scummy also doesn't look like the way you would talk to a scumbuddy.

He calls his scum-buddy camn a "ryan-attacker." This is interesting. It fits in with the ryan-as-scum theory, as if camn was lynched before RC or ryan, it makes both ryan and RC look townier. Two distances for the price of one.

But then RC talks about how much more townie EsoMonty got in the thread, and talking about posts that I myself found quite scummy. This is very odd, and looks like distancing. RC goes into great detail about how scummy he thinks Eso is, tells ryan that he should be voting for Eso, but then goes back on it all based on a few posts, which were not AT ALL pro-town by Eso. This fits very well with an Eso-as-scum theory; it is "safe distancing" of the kind camn did to BSG. He throws out a ton of suspicion at Eso, but gets away with not backing it up with a vote by later saying "oh, but now Eso is town."

And then he tells me to pressure both Eso and rofl more. Again, I don't think scum would be pressuring people to vote Eso; this goes beyond what I think scum would find a safe amount of distance-pressure to provide.


So all in all, I think that there are more points linking ryan to RC and camn, but I also think that the RC waffling so drastically on Eso is hugely suspicious.


---------

This post strikes me as very fishy, too, ryan. You followed camn-scum onto a rofl vote without any reasoning whatsoever. The only thing you said about rofl prior to your vote was "his silence isn't helpful."

Can you explain why you voted for rofl?

[GIEFF]

My list was all inclusive on how I saw the game, and what relevant information I believe there was. I know you both find me the most suspicious, but both of you are afraid to throw a vote out, which is completely understandable given the circumstance. After looking it over, i really think Gieff is the last mafia, given his inclination to not vote these last two rounds,w hereas Eso joined bandwagons early. Thus, I find GIEFF as last scum.

Don't confuse apathy with scumminess. I put a TON of effort into this game the first day, and the wind was sort of taken out of my sails when we lost both our power roles. I didn't sign up for a mountainous game; I wanted to try a game with a hider, and I didn't get to.


And it should go without saying, but a vote should DEFINITELY not be thrown out by anybody unless you are willing to carry it through to a lynch. If one townie ever votes for another, the game is over. We have plenty of time.

[ryan2754]

My vote was a pressure vote. He said he was going to psot, then said he drank too much, then went silent for a while. He constantly criticized me and thought I to be scum, and then when he didn't respond, I was suspicious, and wanted to get him talking.

GIEFF's case on Eso makes sense, but I still feel GIEFF is stretching to try and find a case on EITHER ME OR MONTY. His fencesitting is bothering me. At the same time, I'm not 100% sure I think GIEFF as scum, and hence, I'm not giving a vote. It's so different from the other game sI've played in because at this point, if one villager wrongly votes another, game over. This is why I'm so hesitant to vote. At the same time, wolves will be equally pressed into not voting, hopefully being able to close the deal when one villager votes another. I'd like to say I'm pretty sure GIEFF is scum, but I'd like to hear what Eso has to say.

[EsoMonty]

My gut tells me ryan is the last scum.

His case on me is failing so he is hoping I will jump on GIEFF.

He seems eager to hammer in a vote.

FOS: ryan

for the record GIEFF; I was confused by the RC post completely. I didn't see what I was doing at the end that could possibly be making me look more town. I wish I hadn't moved my vote to Gamma, even if he was an unhelpful town member. I was only providing Information to get people to hypoclaim. I didn't want it to slip through the cracks before the eventual Gamma hammering.

I think that 4 confirmed townies voting for Ryan is my last nail in the coffin for him.

I am almost ready to vote. I am just wary to do so when we are this close.

[GIEFF]

There is no rush, EM.

GIEFF's case on Eso makes sense, but I still feel GIEFF is stretching to try and find a case on EITHER ME OR MONTY. His fencesitting is bothering me. At the same time, I'm not 100% sure I think GIEFF as scum, and hence, I'm not giving a vote. It's so different from the other game sI've played in because at this point, if one villager wrongly votes another, game over.

This is exactly the point. I am leaning scum on you, ryan, but I am by no means convinced. I'm trying to look at ALL the information as objectively as possible, so of course I'm not going to just focus on one of you at the exclusion of the other. I am far from deciding who to vote, and if you are the other townie, I hope you are, too. More discussion and time is always good for the town.

ryan, I have asked twice now why you voted for rofl, and both times you haven't answered. Can you please explain it?

[ryan2754]

My gut tells me ryan is the last scum.

His case on me is failing so he is hoping I will jump on GIEFF.

He seems eager to hammer in a vote.

FOS: ryan

for the record GIEFF; I was confused by the RC post completely. I didn't see what I was doing at the end that could possibly be making me look more town. I wish I hadn't moved my vote to Gamma, even if he was an unhelpful town member. I was only providing Information to get people to hypoclaim. I didn't want it to slip through the cracks before the eventual Gamma hammering.

I think that 4 confirmed townies voting for Ryan is my last nail in the coffin for him.

I am almost ready to vote. I am just wary to do so when we are this close.

My case on your is failing? How so. I made a case out of both players, looking at what everyone said and what you said in your posts throughout the game, and tried to see it from both angles. That's trying to be inclusive, and getting as much information out there as possible. Sure I built a case, but I did on GIEFF as well. I wouldn't necessarily go to the extreme of saying it failed, but ok.

Pretty much here is what I am coming down to.

Eso voted for two mafia members - one he was the hammer, and the other he was early bandwagon. Seems pretty town.
GIEFF hadn't voted in the last three rounds (slightly scummy), but also started the hypoclaiming process (very town).

So that's where I'm at. This sucks. I have a gut feeling that is telling me one person, and everything else is pointing the other way. I'm getting frustrated. What the hell.

Oh, and lynching me would be a very bad idea, and definitely give the game to the scum.


Screw it.

Vote: Esomonty

[GIEFF]

Vote: Esomonty

[GIEFF]

Sorry, guys =(

Good game.

[Incognito]

Final Vote Count of the Game

EsoMonty (2) <-~ ryan2754, GIEFF

Not Voting (1) <-~ EsoMonty

With 3 alive, it takes 2 votes to lynch!

---

--- Reserved for death scene ---

---

EsoMonty,

Townie

, lynched during Day 5
ryan2754,

Townie

, killed during endgame

GIEFF,

Mafia Goon

, survives and helps win the game for the Cyborg Mafia!

Complete wrap up coming later!

[Empking]

GIEFF: Y U KILL me?

[GIEFF]

Here's what I told Incognito:

I think if I killed EsoMonty, EmpKing would see that I was trying to set up ryan and him to keep fighting. Hopefully ryan will be on my side because I defended him early on. We'll see.

[GIEFF]

Also, your death proved that all 4 people on ryan's wagon were townies.

[EsoMonty]

Crap.

[RedCoyote]

Well done GIEFF! I wish I could've helped you more, but I guess the town really had it town when both the Doctor/Hider were killed so early.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: I guess the town really had it

tough

when both the Doctor/Hider were killed so early.