Open 118 - Follow The Cop ... Or Not (Game Over) before 748

[Slicey]

Shin has done pretty much nothing pro-town the entire game, except calling out random voters as potential scum, while at that point in the game, anybody could be voting for anyone and still be scum. I don't see why you are defending her, GIEFF. >_>

[GIEFF]

I don't think she is scum, I don't think she was doing a very good job of defending herself, and I don't think the case(s) on her are legitimate.

[GIEFF]

I'm ready to hammer, but I'll give Shin her say.
Truth is, she wasn't scummy to me when empking first made his case on her, but her actions since then have changed my opinions of her.

It seems like everybody voting for Shin besides ShadowKnight is using actions before Empking's case (L-3 freakout, inconsistency about random voting, assuming there is at least one scum on the wagon) as reasons for their votes. So because she wasn't scummy when empking first made his case, you don't agree with any of these three things?

Which actions since then have changed your opinion of her? And why?

[Slicey]

I don't think she is scum, I don't think she was doing a very good job of defending herself, and I don't think the case(s) on her are legitimate.

Fair enough.

Zazier really needs to post. >___>

[ac1983fan]

I'm ready to hammer, but I'll give Shin her say.
Truth is, she wasn't scummy to me when empking first made his case on her, but her actions since then have changed my opinions of her.

It seems like everybody voting for Shin besides ShadowKnight is using actions before Empking's case (L-3 freakout, inconsistency about random voting, assuming there is at least one scum on the wagon) as reasons for their votes. So because she wasn't scummy when empking first made his case, you don't agree with any of these three things?

Which actions since then have changed your opinion of her? And why?

Her basic refusal to answer/defend herself against questions/cases brought up against her, until she was being pressured heavily.
I do not agree with the "L-3 freakout" being a scumtell, for a simple reason that different people play more defensively than others. For assuming there's at least one scum on a random bandwagoning - assuming is never good, but statistically speaking, it's not unlikely. And as for the random vote inconsistency - that is slightly scummy. But not defending yourself or (moreso) not answering questions is very scummy.

[GIEFF]

So ac1983fan, you are willing to hammer Shin because she didn't defend herself or answer questions? Which questions specifically did she not answer until pressured heavily? I see a ton of questions thrown her way, and a ton of answers.

I assume that if you are willing to hammer Shin for this alone (or at least this MOSTLY), you will be able to point to multiple instances of her dodging questions or refusing to defend herself.
----


Empking, if yyou find it fishy that people unvote because we aren't in the random vote stage, why did you ignore it when Magus did it? It looks like kmd did the same thing, but Magus actually said the unvote was because "things were getting serious," and I don't have to make assumptions about intent.

[ac1983fan]

She didn't respond to Empking's case until after she was prodded to it. Also, Shin didn't answer Tuber's question from the 26th until the 9th. Those are the main reasons I'd feel comfortable with hammering Shin, depending on her claim. The RVS contradictions just make me more willing to do so.

[GIEFF]

The fact that Empking's case was hidden in a quote pyramid (which I didn't take the time to read completely, either) makes me more suspicious of Empking than of Shin.

Failing to answer Tuber's question was not a failure to defend herself.

It's shocking to me you went from defending Magus in the early game (though claiming you weren't) to saying "I'd be willing to hammer" just like that, and for such weak reasons. One question that was hidden in a quote pyramid, and one question that was eventually answered, and was late because she thought she had already answered it?

And that's enough for you to hammer, even though you didn't find her early play scummy?

[Nameless]

DraketheFake replaces BlakAdder. Deadline has been moved forward one day.

[ac1983fan]

I wasn't defending shinmagus at the start of the game. Why does everybody assume that I was defending her?

I feel like shin has been resisting things brought against her, she's the scummiest person in my mind. I dislike Empking's style of play, but shin's scumminess tops Empking's anti-town playstyle. I personally think you can't draw too too much out of statements made during the random vote stage.

[GIEFF]

Because you answered a question directed at her before she had a chance to answer it, trying to explain why her behavior isn't scummy. That is defending. Denying you did it is more scummy than actually having done it.

I feel like shin has been resisting things brought against her, she's the scummiest person in my mind.

I see one question she didn't answer immediately, and she claimed it's because she thought she already answered it. This question was about Shin's opinion on kmd, and was not a "thing brought against her."

Specifically, which "things brought against her" has Shin resisted? Is it just Empking's case, which he buried in a quote-pyramid of confusion?

[ac1983fan]

Because you answered a question directed at her before she had a chance to answer it, trying to explain why her behavior isn't scummy. That is defending. Denying you did it is more scummy than actually having done it.

I feel like shin has been resisting things brought against her, she's the scummiest person in my mind.

I see one question she didn't answer immediately, and she claimed it's because she thought she already answered it. This question was about Shin's opinion on kmd, and was not a "thing brought against her."

Specifically, which "things brought against her" has Shin resisted? Is it just Empking's case, which he buried in a quote-pyramid of confusion?

First of all, it's not defending if it wasn't my intention to defend. I don't think I was answering a question, I'm pretty sure I was just making a comment on the situation at hand.

Look, Shin looks the scummiest to me. Deadline's coming up fast, and there's no other case being brought up. Deadline lynches are generally considered to be not good. I saw Empking's case immediately. I was at least reading the non-quote pyramid parts of the post. I just feel like shin's been dodging things, and hasn't really been defending herself against the people who've been voting for her for reason's pre-Empking's case. GIEFF, are you trying to change my opinion or what?

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote ac1983fan

[ac1983fan]

Whatever. I've told you the reasoning behind why I'm willing to hammer. I don't see how that makes me scum. By voting me, I assume you think I am scum. You are wrong.

[GIEFF]

By voting me, I assume you think I am scum.

Why did you ignore the possibility that I am scum trying to frame you? You're not supposed to know my role, remember?

[GIEFF]

EBWOP: You're not supposed to know my

role

alignment.

[ac1983fan]

By voting me, I assume you think I am scum.

Why did you ignore the possibility that I am scum trying to frame you? You're not supposed to know my role, remember?

Because at this point, you don't seem scummy.
Why should I assume you're scum if you've done nothing terribly scummy?
Innocent until proven guilty.

[GIEFF]

Whatever. I've told you the reasoning behind why I'm willing to hammer. I don't see how that makes me scum.

Because I don't buy your reasoning.

You've done just about zero scumhunting this game - very active-lurkery. You talked about the theory of random-voting, you said Shin's behavior was not necessarily scummy, you said quote pyramids were annoying, you lolz'd at a reference, and then all of a sudden you said you would be fine with a hammer.


You say you don't think Shin's early play was scummy, yet you are ready to lynch her because she doesn't answer questions or defend herself. The two specific examples you pointed to (only after prodding by me) were Empking's post in the middle of a quote pyramid (which she answered as soon as she was made aware of it), and a post by Tuberkulos, which was not a case against Shin, and which Shin again answered as soon as she was made aware of it.


I don't think a townie would think that Shin missing Empking's quote-pyramid case is enough to warrant a hammer. Others on the wagon say they found her early play scummy, which I can believe is their genuine opinion. But as you've admitted you did not find her early play scummy, the only reason you have left is "she refuses to answer questions" which just is not true.

Deadline's coming up fast, and there's no other case being brought up. Deadline lynches are generally considered to be not good.

So why didn't you try to make a case yourself, instead of just throwing your support behind the biggest wagon, even though it's on a player whose early play you didn't find to be scummy, and even though it's led by a player whose play you find to be anti-town? Deadline lynches are mainly bad because they limit the amount of discussion. Artificially rushing to a lynch to avoid a "deadline lynch" is even worse than a deadline lynch itself would be.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Wait a second, why are all of you saying that I'm not defending myself? I answered Tuber's questions, as well as other questions thrown to me. But Emp's "case", I hardly call that a case. He only summarized my posts. Now, that's a case? So, if I summarize someone's post, with a biased opinion, would that be called a case? There's no even logic behind that!

The people that is hanging to Emp's "case", it's just looking for a lame excuse to vote for someone, and thus, lynch someone. At least Tuber has good points behind his posts, but the rest is just using a weak accusation to lay a vote.

[Slicey]

You've done just about zero scumhunting this game

Funny, because you haven't done anything except defend Shin so far.

And Shin, it's not that you're defending yourself, it's just that you took a while to respond (you even made a couple posts in between when someone [Emp, Tuber, me kinda] made a case against you and when you finally responded to the case) and your defense has been rather poor. Combine that with the things I've already said and that's why I'm voting for Shin.

[ZEEnon]

ZEE: A second vote isn't a bandwagon.

My definition of a bandwagon is someone voting for someone for no reason, basically because one other person has voted for them.

Zeenon, Emp later made a case on Shin. Did you not see that?

Yes, but normally people make their case before, not after they vote.
Also, the case he has on him is not really that great, just stating things that players, as well as I, already feel.
Right now Shinnen_no_Me is highly suspicious, but the way that Empking attacks him warrants my vote once again.

Vote: Empking

.

[Tuberkulos]

Wait a second, why are all of you saying that I'm not defending myself? I answered Tuber's questions, as well as other questions thrown to me. But Emp's "case", I hardly call that a case. He only summarized my posts. Now, that's a case? So, if I summarize someone's post, with a biased opinion, would that be called a case? There's no even logic behind that!

The people that is hanging to Emp's "case", it's just looking for a lame excuse to vote for someone, and thus, lynch someone. At least Tuber has good points behind his posts, but the rest is just using a weak accusation to lay a vote.

Shin, how do you feel about this?

I checked is post history and from what I found he got called out for putting someone at L-2 (not L-3).

[ac1983fan]

Whatever. I've told you the reasoning behind why I'm willing to hammer. I don't see how that makes me scum.

Because I don't buy your reasoning.

You've done just about zero scumhunting this game - very active-lurkery. You talked about the theory of random-voting, you said Shin's behavior was not necessarily scummy, you said quote pyramids were annoying, you lolz'd at a reference, and then all of a sudden you said you would be fine with a hammer.


You say you don't think Shin's early play was scummy, yet you are ready to lynch her because she doesn't answer questions or defend herself. The two specific examples you pointed to (only after prodding by me) were Empking's post in the middle of a quote pyramid (which she answered as soon as she was made aware of it), and a post by Tuberkulos, which was not a case against Shin, and which Shin again answered as soon as she was made aware of it.


I don't think a townie would think that Shin missing Empking's quote-pyramid case is enough to warrant a hammer. Others on the wagon say they found her early play scummy, which I can believe is their genuine opinion. But as you've admitted you did not find her early play scummy, the only reason you have left is "she refuses to answer questions" which just is not true.

Deadline's coming up fast, and there's no other case being brought up. Deadline lynches are generally considered to be not good.

So why didn't you try to make a case yourself, instead of just throwing your support behind the biggest wagon, even though it's on a player whose early play you didn't find to be scummy, and even though it's led by a player whose play you find to be anti-town? Deadline lynches are mainly bad because they limit the amount of discussion. Artificially rushing to a lynch to avoid a "deadline lynch" is even worse than a deadline lynch itself would be.

I guess I'm more of a follower than a leader. I have a hard time making up cases on my own, but when somebody else makes a case, I can usually determine if I agree or disagree.

I don't really think there's many other options.

[Slicey]

ZEE: A second vote isn't a bandwagon.

My definition of a bandwagon is someone voting for someone for no reason, basically because one other person has voted for them.

Zeenon, Emp later made a case on Shin. Did you not see that?

Yes, but normally people make their case before, not after they vote.
Also, the case he has on him is not really that great, just stating things that players, as well as I, already feel.
Right now Shinnen_no_Me is highly suspicious, but the way that Empking attacks him warrants my vote once again.

Vote: Empking

.

Voting for someone and then making a case later is not scummy. At least in this situation.

[Kmd4390]

I need to catch up. I spent all my time in Marathon Day games. I have all afternoon, so I'll catch up after class.