Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[skitzer]

Hickory dickory downie,
Ether runs up a townie,
The votes struck seven
Someone's in heaven...

Sorry.

camn, I think you didn't understand whoever asked for reasoning. I think they might why those are your top three. I, being on that list, would also like to know.

=======================

Page 13 Votecount

camn (0/7):
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (1/7): Incognito,
Ether (1/7): Yosarian2
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (0/7):
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (2/7): Green Crayons, Patrick
Yosarian2 (3/7): OhGodMyLife, charter, Ether

Not voting (4/12):

skitzer, DizzyIzzyB13, Korts, camn

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[camn]

It is simple......

I love lynching lurkers.
You have 6 posts.
You make my list.

[skitzer]

You shouldn't just base on posts. My posts are very informative and analyszing in my opinion.

[OhGodMyLife]

Family is doing the Passover Seder today, but I'm hoping to be able to sneak away later and post. I have a lot to say.

[camn]

You shouldn't just base on posts. My posts are very informative and analyszing in my opinion.

I'm not lynching you based on posts. You just make my top 3.

[charter]

I do not like this miller claim one bit. Yos is a skilled enough player to be able to avoid suspicion if he wants to, without needing to claim at this point. It makes no sense to me.

Hmmm, let me test the water and defend Yos and more blending in!
FOS.

I don't understand why there is so much discussion about Yos's miller claim. You're either going to vote him because he claimed scum, or you're going to vote him because you think he's scum. Arguing about when/if he should claim miller furthers neither of these two.

FOS Skitzer for 239. Many bad conclusions in there.

250- Wow, Dizzy has three suspects, but can't vote!

287- More noncomitting from Dizzy!

Exclaimation marks!!!

charter, any opinion on the last 3 pages or so? I can see you've been around.

Not really. Yos claimed scum, still needs to be lynched. I still like Dizzy for scum too. I can easily see them as buddies.

I could lynch either Dizzy or Yos. Both look like scum to me.

[Patrick]

What's the point of just repeating that Yos claimed scum? He quite clearly hasn't. Do you have some reason for not believing the miller claim other than some recent game where a miller was scum? It feels like you're being deliberately obtuse here.

I'm getting fed up of all this vagueness from certain people. I don't recall anything very substantial from Korts, and the only thing I know about Xdaamno's opinions is that he thinks GC is town. This is like half way through our day, and he still seems more interested in peppering the thread with ambiguous little observations and arguing with GC about stuff probably half the players aren't even reading. Skitzer's posts have been entirely unmemorable to me, and I don't get what's holding Ether up either. This game hasn't been dull or short of things to comment on, so I don't see any excuse. Xdaamno: why do you seem to ignore questions to you about who you suspect? Are you reading the game?

[Yosarian2]

I do not like this miller claim one bit. Yos is a skilled enough player to be able to avoid suspicion if he wants to, without needing to claim at this point. It makes no sense to me.

Hmmm, let me test the water and defend Yos and more blending in!
FOS.

Why would you quote a line where Izzy is quite clearly attacking me, and then pretend that she's defending me in that line? Why are you inventing stuff to try to tie me to Izzy, charter?

Usually when I see someone do a misrepresentation of that nature, they're scum with the other person; trying to create ties between their scumbuddy and a townie in the minds of the town, both to hurt the townie if their buddy goes down and to help their buddy if the townie goes down . So, you scum with Izzy?

Not really. Yos claimed scum, still needs to be lynched.

Do you understand that miller is a pro-town role, right?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

250- Wow, Dizzy has three suspects, but can't vote!

If you were paying attention, you'd realise that I don't have suspects yet, and the entire top three post is essentially a response to a request with little to no relevence or meaning.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Your problem is that you're looking at it from the persopective that "Izzy suspects these people" not "Izzy finds these people the most suspicious". There's a difference. I don't support the lynch either of them right now. Just because they're the most suspicious people in the game, doesn't mean I necessarily think they're scum. I don't particularly believe anyone is supicious enough to be worth a vote yet. That should tell you enough to go on.

I don't see the difference between those two statements. My vote is on you right now but that doesn't necessarily mean I want you lynched right at this moment either. My vote is my indicator that I find your behavior suspicious and worthy of further attention. I assumed your top three meant similar, otherwise I can't see why you'd even produce one in the first place even if someone asked you to provide one. You'd just say "nobody's really suspicious enough to me at this time for me to be able to produce a top three".

That does not tend to go down well, in my experience, what with the expected accusations of non-contribution, failure to scum hunt et al. So, I did my best and provided something that may well be of some benefit to the town at some point, even if it's only likely to be entirely minimal.

You say "they're the most suspicious people in the game"... are you saying this from your own perspective or the town collective's perspective?

There's a difference? My interestes are the town's interests.

Silly, arbitrary and generally unhelpful except maybe to scum who are looking for something like I poosted from a person who has yet to form solid opinions of the game.

So do you think Ether hasn't formed solid opinions of the game yet?

'That part covered me.

Also, do you honestly think a hypo-Ether-scum could logically demand a top three from a hypo-you-town, a person she "suspects", and then once she receives that top three, automatically use your top three to drive her own "suspicions"?

It provides data useful for pushing wagons on other people when either my wagon fails, or for use when I come up town to drive suspicion away from others. Or, it's a townie doing something that helps scum because they thing it's a good idea when it's not. Scum aren't the only ones who do things that benefit scum.

[Yosarian2]

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

[charter]

I do not like this miller claim one bit. Yos is a skilled enough player to be able to avoid suspicion if he wants to, without needing to claim at this point. It makes no sense to me.

Hmmm, let me test the water and defend Yos and more blending in!
FOS.

Why would you quote a line where Izzy is quite clearly attacking me, and then pretend that she's defending me in that line? Why are you inventing stuff to try to tie me to Izzy, charter?

That wasn't a real attack. She clearly doesn't think it's suspicious because that's all she said on the subject, no following up on it, no vote, nothing. You either believe someone is actually a miller, or you think they're scum lying about it, there's really no middle ground. I saw Dizzy saying he doesn't need to claim miller if he's scum, hence she's saying he's town, aka defending him.

250- Wow, Dizzy has three suspects, but can't vote!

If you were paying attention, you'd realise that I don't have suspects yet, and the entire top three post is essentially a response to a request with little to no relevence or meaning.

Yeah, I call bullshit. You can't be 13 pages in and still not suspect anyone and actually be looking for scum.

I think I will actually

unvote, vote Dizzy

again.

[camn]

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

Vote : Ether

a) I would like to see you get in the game more.. as if I am one to talk
b) I saw you trying to buddy up to me first post
c) I figured out your opening gambit. See my previous
d) if Yos is town, he is on to you, if Yos is scum, he is bussing you.

[Xdaamno]

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

Vote : Ether

a) I would like to see you get in the game more.. as if I am one to talk
b) I saw you trying to buddy up to me first post
c) I figured out your opening gambit. See my previous
d) if Yos is town, he is on to you, if Yos is scum, he is bussing you.

'd' would be a fair point, but you missed out the possibility of Yos being scum attacking a townie. If you're only counting the scenarios in which Ether is scum, that isn't a reason whatsoever.

[OhGodMyLife]

Yosarian2 - Patrick - charter

Wow, could it be I've already caught the whole scum team?

[Yosarian2]

That wasn't a real attack. She clearly doesn't think it's suspicious because that's all she said on the subject, no following up on it, no vote, nothing. You either believe someone is actually a miller, or you think they're scum lying about it, there's really no middle ground. I saw Dizzy saying he doesn't need to claim miller if he's scum, hence she's saying he's town, aka defending him.

I read that as "He wouldn't claim miller as town, because he would just avoid suspicion and getting cop investigated instead, so he's probably lying."

Either way, it was a weak attack, basically looked to me like she was trying to push my wagon without being on it.

[Green Crayons]

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

This is the major cause behind my Ether suspicions, truth be told.

[Yosarian2]

Xdaamno: Patrick had a good point; I still have no idea who you find suspicious.

[charter]

Yosarian2 - Patrick - charter

Wow, could it be I've already caught the whole scum team?

EVERYONE, JUST QUIT, PACK IT IN. MOD LOCK THIS GAME. ITS OVER.

The only scum you caught is Yosarian and you didn't do any catching.

[OhGodMyLife]

Yosarian2 - Patrick - charter

Wow, could it be I've already caught the whole scum team?

EVERYONE, JUST QUIT, PACK IT IN. MOD LOCK THIS GAME. ITS OVER.

The only scum you caught is Yosarian and you didn't do any catching.

Careful, I can smell your fear.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I do not like this miller claim one bit. Yos is a skilled enough player to be able to avoid suspicion if he wants to, without needing to claim at this point. It makes no sense to me.

Hmmm, let me test the water and defend Yos and more blending in!
FOS.

Why would you quote a line where Izzy is quite clearly attacking me, and then pretend that she's defending me in that line? Why are you inventing stuff to try to tie me to Izzy, charter?

That wasn't a real attack. She clearly doesn't think it's suspicious because that's all she said on the subject, no following up on it, no vote, nothing. You either believe someone is actually a miller, or you think they're scum lying about it, there's really no middle ground. I saw Dizzy saying he doesn't need to claim miller if he's scum, hence she's saying he's town, aka defending him.

It wasn't an attack or a defence of Yos. It was a simple statement of opinion on the claim - namely that I don't like it because it doesn't make sense, in part because he hadn't claimed in his first post, he wasn't under any significant pressure and due to his skill at playing the game, he could have simply played townie and avoided any need to claim because he can avoid suspicion. You're trying too hard to interpret things as scummy.

250- Wow, Dizzy has three suspects, but can't vote!

If you were paying attention, you'd realise that I don't have suspects yet, and the entire top three post is essentially a response to a request with little to no relevence or meaning.

Yeah, I call bullshit. You can't be 13 pages in and still not suspect anyone and actually be looking for scum.

Yes, you can. If, that is, you're not just looking to latch onto the first thing that vaguely doesn't sit right and call scum. Scum aren't the only people who act scummy. The art is sifting between occasional lapses by townies and discerning patterns of scumminess. I don't see patterns emerging yet, just confusion emerging from narrow focus and general theory discussion that does not necessarily add to the data from which opinions can be formed.

It's noticable that certain people are falling significantly behind in post count terms - while the majority of us are in the 30s and in Yos' case, the 40s, Skitzer has fewer than 10, Korts and Ether are in the low 10s and Patrick is in the early 20s. That covers a third of the game that are lagging behind. If you remove Patrick (who is lagging behind, but not by as much and has been more active than the others), it's still a third of the game. This concerns me, especially since the people who have been contributing at least appear to be motivated for the most part by townish reasons even if I completely disagree with what they;re syaing.

At the very least Skitzer appears to be actively lurking, just popping up to make a contribution often enough to say "I'm here". It's particularly suspicious because he's been posting in other threads ont he site in between his visits here. The same with Korts. Korts has been spending plenty of time in scumchat and has been active in other games whilst being very lurkerish here.

Ether's inactivity is less supicious. I haven;t seen her in scumchat for a few days, and she hasn't been posting. I'm willing to let that slide. I'm also not too suspicious of Patrick's lessened posting, since he is posting and contributing more regularly than the others.

Korts and Skitzer, though... I'm very much reaching the point where their lurking is reaching extremely suspicious levels. Korts in particular, since he's been avoiding this game since Wednesday whilst posting elsewhere and generally being available in scumchat. Post please. Something. Anything. Preferably something productive.

[camn]

d) if Yos is town, he is on to you, if Yos is scum, he is bussing you.

'd' would be a fair point, but you missed out the possibility of Yos being scum attacking a townie. If you're only counting the scenarios in which Ether is scum, that isn't a reason whatsoever.

Why would Yos-scum chose this moment to attack a townie?

[Incognito]

DizzyIzzy's last few posts have been solid. I'm beginning to feel much better about her alignment actually lol. I'm beginning to think that this style of play of her's is more a function of her playstyle rather than scummy behavior. I also looked through some of her recently completed games as scum, and I noticed slight differences in them when compared to here. That said

unvote

.

Looking at Korts's posting history shows that he's actively posting elsewhere on the forums and isn't doing anything here. I've noticed a few people mention his name, and I mentioned having issues with him also so I think a

vote: Korts

is certainly warranted.

I did some digging through Xdaamno's recently completed games and noticed some interesting things there too. I'll try and make a post about it hopefully sometime tomorrow or on Monday while commenting on some of the more recent stuff too. It's my mom's birthday today and Easter tomorrow so I might be a bit busy.

[OhGodMyLife]

That said, if Yos does die at some point and turns town, camn and Ether will have some extra suspicion marks beneath their name.
If Yos does die at some point and turns scum, charter will be accompanied with some new suspicion marks.

This is all well and good, but bear in mind there is now virtually no way that Yos will die unless we lynch him, barring a vig who agrees with me. So your "if Yos dies town" ideas are not going to be useful basically ever, and "if Yos dies scum" is only useful in the reverse, that is if charter dies scum it further implicates Yos.

OGML's conclusion in 189/190 seems pretty counter-intuitive if he's suggesting what I think he is.

What exactly did you think I was suggesting. I already ventured a guess as to what it was, but got no response one way or the other to that.

Oh, sure it has an impact; i was just saying that OGML's rule ("miller MUST claim start of day 1, or NEVER CLAIM AT ALL!!!11!") is foolish, since as far as preventing a wasted cop investigaton goes, it dosn't matter when during day 1 the miller claims.

But in terms of believability, it does matter. And in terms of not disrupting all the other ongoing discussion, it matters quite a bit.

Incog, sorry if I misrepresneted you there

Lets translate: "Incog, sorry I mistakenly thought you had taken up a position I could exploit."

Incognito, I'd be interested to hear your opinion about that, since I know you have had a lot of experence with her meta as well.

Lets translate: "Incog, now that we're on the subject, if you would go ahead and take up this position I can exploit, it will bolster my standing quite a bit."

Note she dosn't vote me specifically for the miller claim,

she dosn't even mention it

You really aren't paying very close attention to what you're doing. Seems like concocting a tractable case against Ether to counter the wagon on you was more important than a little detail like veracity.

When Ether's town, she can usually spot town-Yos a mile away

So, to distill your whole argument here, Ether doesn't think you are town, and therefore she is not town... hey, I'm pretty sure thats a textbook definition of Oh My God You Suck (for voting me).

What do you think, Incog?

Third time in one post you're appealing to Incog's authority on the matter of Ether. I'm gonna need to keep reading to see if he took the bait on this one, or if he realized that Yos was trying to play him.

Xdaamno: 35-40% or so. A little more likely then random to be scum, based on some early game vibes; nothing solid.

Suppose you are a not a miller. How would Xdaamno claiming miller at this point affect your opinion of his likelihood of being scum? Might you, perhaps, "hate the claim?" Because your description of why you are suspicious of X is remarkably similar to what Ether wrote about you, plus the "I hate the claim" which you blatantly ignored in writing up a case against her.

(shrug) Well, we're only 10 pages into day 1

Somebody needs to make a name for the scumtell of "Appealing to Page Number"

Still, the tone of your posts, the agressivness, the...well, the taking advantage of a sudden oppertunity, I suppose, are about what I would normally expect from you as scum.

You mean the sudden opportunity of your random ass miller claim in the midst of other discussions well into day one? Why is my aggressive reaction to it more telling than camn or charter, who don't even seem to be making a blip on your scumdar? Why are all of your arguments so far against both me and Ether based 99% on meta, and your argument against X is purely gut?

Yos: Did you get a chance to explore any of the games I linked where I'm scum on the forum? Did they give you any new impression of how I play as scum?

OGML in Post 177: Am I correct in saying that you thought of this because camn's post pertained to scum dropping the atom bomb-thingies? I can agree here.

No, that had very little to do with it. Though it was certainly a brazen thing for Yos to quote while claiming miller.

Translation to reality: Yos analyzes the two main issues going on in thread at the point, decides neither argument is convincing and explains that pretty clearly, so Yos scumhunts elsewhere.

Voting X based on a gut read of one single post is a far cry from scumhunting.

Well, yeah. I still don't really get how anyone would assume I would make a whole big post with analysis and stuff and then end it with a random vote...

Perhaps it was assumed to be random because you gave no real indication it was otherwise?

Anyway, reading the first 2 pages of the game, Xdaamno's single post *was* scummier then the net contrabutions of any other single player. Do you disagree?

Yes.

Right, right, jokes are scummy, I forgot.

In the joking post you misquoted just above, I made a joke about how I was going to vote for Patrick except I couldn't because he ozzed pro-town-ness. I then had to actually explain that, yes, this was a joke, based on the fact Patrick always looks pro-town to me. Now you're attacking me for having to explain my joke? Sheesh.

By the way, "my gut usually gives me a pro-town read on Patrick" does NOT mean "I won't be able to figure out Patrick's alignment or get a real read on him", by ANY streach of the imagination.

But the joke WAS made in lieu of making any statement one way or the other about Patrick's alignment at that time, so it did serve the function of letting you continue to ignore him.

Let me just stop again here; did you really mean this as a serious attack on me, OGML?

Yes.

Complete and total lie, since I actually said that they both looked town, which is the exact opposite of what you're claiming I did. We've moved waaayy beyond simple misrepresentation here...

You said they were both pro-town but at the same time asked pointed questions that seemed to deepen the argument going on while you sat back and observed.

Lol. Mock me if you want, but if you have an actual problem with my post, you're going to have to say what part of it you disagree with.

OK. Why was it that up that point, your vote had not moved from Xdaamno?

My linking to one town game where I handled a miller claim in a similar manner to here was enough for you to automatically write me off as town? Why?

Not just the link, the way you explained your thought process, and further meditation on the subject. And Yos' unabashed appealing to your authority. You are certainly not scum with him. And he is certainly scum.

Harking back to OGML's 211: I don't think I'm WIFOMing myself. I'm trying to look at the action, determine what I think of it in and of itself (townish), and then look at who is using it (Yos, who had some leaning scum activity prior to the action per 190) and that player's history regarding the action (a 180 spin in the past two months because of "a shift in meta").

You are though. You made a decision that scum-Yos would not take this risk, and now you're going to great lengths to make excuses for everything Yos has done since, like calling the claim "sloppy," instead of "scummy," probably because you've got a confirmation bias based on your opinion that this just isn't a move scum-Yos would make.

On the other hand, I keep coming back to why he'd be doing this as scum: that seems more like horrible play to me. If he did this as scum in the hope that he'd actually come out looking better or at least not worse from it, he'd have to be showing pretty appalling judgement, I think. Anyone can make a bad play, but it doesn't seem likely to me.

Ever since I brought up a Patrick-Yos scumpair and Ether mentioned that she thinks that is too obvious, they have been really really blatant in supporting each other. Coincidence? I think not.

Don't like camn's sudden abandonment of the Yos wagon, nor her immediate switch to pushing the case against Ether. After that move, camn could just has easily have been distancing from Yos are charter. But on of these two (charter, camn) is almost certainly the third member of the scumteam.

I agree with all of Patrick's 260.

Again, you are blinded by your convictions regarding whether or not scum-Yos would pull a move like this, and you are practically ignoring everything thats come from him since. You even made an extremely valid point regarding Yos covering his tracks after screwing up the first round of his Ether offensive, but it hasn't changed your opinion in the slightest.

I also felt like if Yos-scum gets away with this, he could ride it all the way to the end.

Correction - if he gets away with it, he WILL ride it all the way to the end. Which is why he is getting lynched today.

Top three rocks.

Mine =
Ether
skitzer
Xdaamno

You made a very quick turnaround from being willing to lynch Yos to practically parroting his scumlist.

Anyway, (aside from your total lack of a case on me, other then your weak mafia-theory "millers shouldn't do what Yos just did even though I apparently can't explain why not" stuff) I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that Patrick is scum here. His posts look pretty town to me.

Again, I'm finding that ever since it was brought up and Ether said it was too obvious, Yos2 and Patrick have become even more blatant.

I find it really unlikely that there's actually a miller in this game.

Considering how many games i have (and you have) seen lately with a miller, I'm not sure why you would say that, OGML...

Anyway, now that the game's over, I can ask this question:

OGML, why is your reaction to a miller claim in this game so different then it was in Mafia 88 viewtopic.php?t=9775&start=1825? You were a pro-town vig in the game; Der Hammer claimed miller day 1, and you never attacked him, never voted him, never questioned him at all, and never used your vig kill on him all game. So why do you have this bizzare "MUST LYNCH ALL CLAIMED MILLERS" and "THERE ARE NO MILLERS" attitude in this game?

You are hiding behind the existence of a miller in another game now, and an apparent swing in the sitewide meta towards putting more millers in games. I believed the miller claim precisely because I

was

the vig. I think the presence of a vig made the claim more likely to be true. He also claimed under duress, and I don't think a day one miller claim under duress is a likely scum move. Much more likely would be say, claiming doctor, because then you either get cced and out the doctor, or coast on a doctor claim. Your claim is NOTHING like the claim in 88, and trying to equate the two is disingenuous.

I'm also not crazy about the fact that he's once again ignored my question about why he checked me off as town so quickly after I linked to only one previous game where I was town.

If it wasn't clear from the tone and length of my last few posts, I didn't have much time for thread reading and question responding.

Hmmm, let me test the water and defend Yos and more blending in!
FOS.

Gee, thats funny. You blatantly defended Yos shortly after his roleclaim by questioning my motives for voting him, yet at the same time you were voting him. If thats not the recipe for scum distancing, I just don't know what is.

Not really. Yos claimed scum, still needs to be lynched. I still like Dizzy for scum too. I can easily see them as buddies.

I could lynch either Dizzy or Yos. Both look like scum to me.

This post is obvious bet hedging. If DizzyIzzy gets lynched today, fantastic for charter he just scored a mislynch. If Yos2 gets lynched today, sucks that he lost a partner, but at least he's making some inroads on getting Izzy lynched tomorrow for his trouble.

Why would you quote a line where Izzy is quite clearly attacking me, and then pretend that she's defending me in that line? Why are you inventing stuff to try to tie me to Izzy, charter?

Usually when I see someone do a misrepresentation of that nature, they're scum with the other person; trying to create ties between their scumbuddy and a townie in the minds of the town, both to hurt the townie if their buddy goes down and to help their buddy if the townie goes down . So, you scum with Izzy?

Oh my, Yos saw how blatant charter was being in trying to set Izzy up for the mislynch in case he goes down first and worries others will too. Its very clever of him to try and make it go both ways, so no matter who dies first out of the trifecta of charter, Izzy and Yos, they'll still have their Izzy mislynch in the end.

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

Nice tag team, guys! Further evidence for the hypothesis that town lurking is hugely beneficial to the scum.

Yeah, I call bullshit. You can't be 13 pages in and still not suspect anyone and actually be looking for scum.

I think I will actually

unvote, vote Dizzy

again.

Here is where charter quietly slips off the Yos2 wagon now that it looks like he might be safe for the day. And on top of that, he pulls the same "Appeal to Page Number" crap. (That tell really needs a better name.)

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

Vote : Ether

a) I would like to see you get in the game more.. as if I am one to talk
b) I saw you trying to buddy up to me first post
c) I figured out your opening gambit. See my previous
d) if Yos is town, he is on to you, if Yos is scum, he is bussing you.

camn, you and charter need stop being equally good candidates for being the third member of the scum team.
a)admitting you are guilty of the same does not excuse you for being guilty of the same
d)setting up an Ether lynch

regardless

of Yos' alignment, thats awesomely scummy. But I especially like the part where you're making contingencies for the possible death of Yos-scum, just like charter.

---

Incog, how do you feel about being the authority Yos is appealing to for his meta-based Ether case? Do you agree that that is what he's doing? Does it change your opinions on anything going on?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

A look at Ether's posting history and her absense from scum chat, plus the fact that her last post in this thread was this:

I've slipped behind, and I've only skimmed the last few pages. I'm a bit preoccupied right now--don't expect a proper post until Friday evening at the earliest.

... would incdicate that Yos's meta-analysis is flawed anyway. Ether appears to be MIA at the moment.