Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Vi]

Also, I messed up in one of my earlier posts, saying B_B and Looker were not scum together. The opposite is true; if B_B is scum, Looker is absolutely scum.
Zach and B_B, who were both voting Archon at the time, posted after P. Molinero put Looker up to L-1 but before I brought Looker down to L-2. If either were scum and Looker Town, they should have hammered right there and ended the game.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Great response, B_B. "I'm Town, I've been following along with everyone else for the sake of the Town, and you have no case" is extremely compelling. [/sarcasm]

In that case, let me lay out why I think you're scummy.

Your posts are, for the most part, unnecessary. I think if I removed your posts from the game, nothing of value would be lost - I would be able to understand what other people were saying just as well. You get really into the theoretical argument D1, but you don't bother with voting or doing anything other than playing Discussion Orderly. You say that you have no issue with voting people (149), but that's one thing you do noticeably seldom - and when you do, it just happens to be joining other votes.

As you explain below, the above is probably why Beyond has managed to escape mention from me for the most part up till now. It's a symptom of trying to stay under the radar.

Now notice the similarities between these posts.

Zach 126 - B_B 127
Zach 139 - B_B 149 (notice the same wording at the beginning of the post, and how they both suggest the wagon is not worth pushing)
B_B 197 - Zach 199
Both just happened to push Zer0 at the same times
Both just happened to push s.lullaby at the same times
Both just happened to go back to Zer0 at similar times (with B_B's wording re: Zer0's scumminess changing in midpost from useless to sinister)

Not that you talk about each other much. You credited him with your reasons for the Zer0 wagon twice, and then mentioned him in these places--
"As a side note, I like's Zach's recent posts..." - 242
"Zachrulez - Slightly town" - 282 (no explanation given)
"I wouldn't upset the moderator if I were you... " - 509
"However, the idea Zach presented of Setael/Ecto + Spring was interesting." - 526
"Flawless. Zach isn't scum. " - 538

--and Zach mentions you even less--

"364: Points out BB's reluctance to the Zero wagon." - 381
--ha, not really.
Notice that all of this is before D3, during which you were basically the only people playing anyway, and even then it's not like you said much to each other, let alone express suspicion of each other (until I replaced in).

There's also my original gripe about you--

Anyway, B_B has a rather sizeable train of conveniently dead people pointing to him, given the vote/death analysis. One interesting thing I noticed is that every time B_B takes offense to something Zach says, within two posts Zach is back to Extremely Good-Looking Town. Similarly, if you look at basically any time in D1 when B_B and Zachrulez posted near each other, it's about the same subjects and usually takes the same positions (Zer0 is worth voting, not backing down from Zer0, JereIC's case on springlullaby is solid, Zer0 is getting everyone's attention again, etc.) This isn't buddying, this is collaboration.

(...)

Miscellaneous: The arguing at the start of D3 looks cheesy to me. Seriously, throwing your votes around at LyLo without solid suspicions? You people are either bolder than I ever would be or know that nothing bad will come of it. Plus the whole modkill discussion bites (bited... bit... ugh, conjugating irregular vulgarities). I'd wager at most two of B_B, Zach, and springlullaby are scum based on this by itself, but not all three.

You agreed with this assessment of your play, and only now started to suggest Zach-scum. This sauce is weak, and Zach 565 drove it home.

On top of all of the above, did you notice that 752 was a basic agreement with you for going back to your original theories, and that Beyond basically threw an assertion out there that he'd vote me based on meta checks of Archon and Looker.

Once you change your vote to him. He turns from agreeing to you to becoming suspicious of you. Suddenly, I'm looking town again.

Holy shit, can someone's suspicious just happen to change so much simply in reaction to one's own desire for survival?

I see a lot of digesting of what is posted from Beyond, and then a general regurgitation of the most recently posted thoughts and Beyond tends to try to adapt to what is the fashionable topic of discussion at the particular point in time.

So why isn't Zach terribly interested in voting B_B again?

Fuck it.

Unvote, Vote: Beyond_Birthday

@Vi: By the same logic, you should be voting Zach... as we are "copying" each other in collaboration, neh?

@Zac: Convenient you'd follow Vi the moment he's taken his attention off of you.

Vote Zachrulez

You basically admit that you've had similar thoughts and then wind up voting me mostly because Vi thinks it is bad (scummy?) of you to not do so with your published thoughts.

@ Has post: Yeah... now that your caught up, care to be useful again?

Are you calling what I've done since then not useful? Sure, they might not be walls, but I don't think they're useless posts.

Obviously because voting me is the losing move for town by 3=3.

So you're

sure

that there are three scum then? hmmm.

BB: 1/4th rule states that in 12 players, 3 scum is very likely.

In fact, all of BB's post 766 seems really scummy to me. He's playing WAY too cautiously.
"I would vote for you but someone might call it OMGUS" just screams overcautious scum to me.

Saying that I'm not voting into an OMGUS trap isn't overcautious. Ignoring the issue is overcautious

Zac, you're confusing me on if your town or not. Stop it.

what's this supposed to be then?

Zac looks really scummy for 2-3 of his posts and then really town the next few. He's confusing the hell out of me.

I'm also not a big fan of Zach's vote here in 771 after Vi called him out on not voting for BB. Compliant scum?

I agree. See my earlier reaction

@ Post 775:

Therefore, if Zac and I am scum, Looker is scum. However, I disagree with BB scum = Looker scum from a third person point of view.

And since I know I am town, and from your logic, I think Zac scum=Looker scum. Therefore: It's time to lynch Zac.

I also think that if Zach is scum, Vi is likely scum based on his numerous cases that can, collectively, conclude Zach is scum, and then he votes someone else. I'm the flavor of the day! (Woo hoo)

[Zachrulez]

@Vi: By the same logic, you should be voting Zach... as we are "copying" each other in collaboration, neh?

No, you got it wrong. He laid out a very clear chronology of you following my lead. There's no "copying." I can not recall a single instance where I've followed

you

@Zac: Convenient you'd follow Vi the moment he's taken his attention off of you.

This is a no win situation for me. People are inevitably going to see this as a scummy effort on my part to look townie as scum by "bussing" you. I couldn't give a damn.

You basically admit that you've had similar thoughts and then wind up voting me mostly because Vi thinks it is bad (scummy?) of you to not do so with your published thoughts.

You've established a clear pattern. You're suspicious of me when I pressure you, and you think I'm town when I pressure everyone else. I'm disappointed in myself that I didn't vote you much sooner in the game.

@ Post 775:

Therefore, if Zac and I am scum, Looker is scum. However, I disagree with BB scum = Looker scum from a third person point of view.

And since I know I am town, and from your logic, I think Zac scum=Looker scum. Therefore: It's time to lynch Zac.

I also think that if Zach is scum, Vi is likely scum based on his numerous cases that can, collectively, conclude Zach is scum, and then he votes someone else. I'm the flavor of the day! (Woo hoo)

Oh look at the guy who's SURE there's 3 scum giving cred to the looker scum theory! Hey, you know what's funny, if you and looker ARE scum, and you only need one little mislynch, then this can be seen as the most transparent attempt ever to get that one last desperate lynch that you need to win.

[Vi]

@Vi: By the same logic, you should be voting Zach... as we are "copying" each other in collaboration, neh?

I also think that if Zach is scum, Vi is likely scum based on his numerous cases that can, collectively, conclude Zach is scum, and then he votes someone else.

What part of "collaboration" doesn't imply you're both guilty?
It seems like rather than rebut the point, you say "him first please". Which is precisely why I'm voting YOU first.
I can more easily swallow Zach-Town than you-Town.

I'm the flavor of the day! (Woo hoo)

You taste like the mingled blood of JereIC, Zer0phe4r, and zwetschenwasser. Although in zwet's case it's more spinal fluid than blood.

No, you got it wrong. He laid out a very clear chronology of you following my lead. There's no "copying." I can not recall a single instance where I've followed you

...

Oh look at the guy who's SURE there's 3 scum giving cred to the looker scum theory! Hey, you know what's funny, if you and looker ARE scum, and you only need one little mislynch, then

this

can be seen as the most transparent attempt ever to get that one last desperate lynch that you need to win.

I'm riding the short bus again on this one. What is "this"?

Where's the other half of the player list?

[Zachrulez]

Oh, this refers to his case and vote for me.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I don't have a defense Vi. I can honestly say that something similar happened in a game that just closed. I was town, and attacked this way, and I can admit that your description of my play is kind of accurate, but I don't really have a formal defense aside from this meta, which may or may not be worthless. Sorry.

[Looker]

Also, I messed up in one of my earlier posts, saying B_B and Looker were not scum together. The opposite is true; if B_B is scum, Looker is absolutely scum.
Zach and B_B, who were both voting Archon at the time, posted after P. Molinero put Looker up to L-1 but before I brought Looker down to L-2. If either were scum and Looker Town, they should have hammered right there and ended the game.

Wha...how? How does this make

me

scum?

And since I know I am town, and from your logic, I think Zac scum=Looker scum. Therefore: It's time to lynch Zac.

Taking special note of those who think I'm scummy. For some I can understand it as a mistake; however, some of you are far too clever to actually mistake me for scum when I've (in my opinion) done nothing scummy. Maybe I'm lost...but I'm thinkin...

Oh look at the guy who's SURE there's 3 scum giving cred to the looker scum theory! Hey, you know what's funny, if you and looker ARE scum, and you only need one little mislynch, then this can be seen as the most transparent attempt ever to get that one last desperate lynch that you need to win.

I have a theory...? I'm not scum...(know this holds no weight but, when it's all said and done, I would have at least liked to have

told

you that i wasn't scum. OCD thing...)

[Vi]

Also, I messed up in one of my earlier posts, saying B_B and Looker were not scum together. The opposite is true; if B_B is scum, Looker is absolutely scum.
Zach and B_B, who were both voting Archon at the time, posted after P. Molinero put Looker up to L-1 but before I brought Looker down to L-2. If either were scum and Looker Town, they should have hammered right there and ended the game.

Wha...how? How does this make

me

scum?

If B_B is scum, he had the chance to hammer you-Town and end the game with a scum victory. He didn't. That would imply that either he is exceptionally bad at Mafia - and he's not - or that he could not quickhammer you for the win, because he knows you're not Town.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Or, because you just so cleverly forgot this (its cute) I'M TOWN!

Sheesh, honestly, you just don't make sense Vi. How many times must I tell you that I'm town before you get it! And if your theory says Looker's scum, maybe we should lynch Looker. I think Looker's scum with Zac, I think Archon or Looker is scum, and although Looker has meta showing he always plays this way, that doesn't exclude him from being a suspect or excuse his behavior. It's true, he's always an idiot, but I think he's probably a scummy idiot based on connections.

See: I'm currently chalking up possible scum teams:

I can loosely see a Zach, Looker, Vi. Vi hasn't strongly attacked Looker or Zach the way he focuses on Pablo and myself. However, Vi has certainly noted the Looker Zach connection, but what's the harm? He lynches one other townie, and its over, so who cares. (Assumes no doc, RB, etc).

Archon being scum wouldn't surprise me too much just because Spring wasn't ambiguous, but I must admit: Spring's attack that only Scum would want people to not be mod killed is ridiculous. Hypothetically, if I was scum, then I would want at least one townie modkilled, right? So, yeah: with that, it looks scummy more than town.

Pablo: Ehh... I'm not going to say I don't see it. He's been fairly scummy, and even though he "turned a new leaf" later in the game, I did the same thing and won't crucify him for that reason alone. Since being called out on it, I definitely think he's been, more or less, pro town.


Has: Potential scum? I dunno. Well... I'd say not. Just...something about Wolf' temp play scream obvs town and Has has given me 0% scum vibes.

Setael: Hm... same as Has, more or less. I can't really come up with any substance indicating him as scum.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Ebwop: Actually, if Has is scum, then Setael is scum. The opposite is also, probably, true.

[Looker]

Also, I messed up in one of my earlier posts, saying B_B and Looker were not scum together. The opposite is true; if B_B is scum, Looker is absolutely scum.
Zach and B_B, who were both voting Archon at the time, posted after P. Molinero put Looker up to L-1 but before I brought Looker down to L-2. If either were scum and Looker Town, they should have hammered right there and ended the game.

Wha...how? How does this make

me

scum?

If B_B is scum, he had the chance to hammer you-Town and end the game with a scum victory. He didn't. That would imply that either he is exceptionally bad at Mafia - and he's not - or that he could not quickhammer you for the win, because he knows you're not Town.

But it doesn't make sense. Why? Why...? I don't get it. I'm kind of lost here. So...never mind. I don't know. This ain't makin no kind of sense, Vi.

Or, because you just so cleverly forgot this (its cute) I'M TOWN!

Sheesh, honestly, you just don't make sense Vi. How many times must I tell you that I'm town before you get it! And if your theory says Looker's scum, maybe we should lynch Looker. I think Looker's scum with Zac, I think Archon or Looker is scum, and although Looker has meta showing he always plays this way, that doesn't exclude him from being a suspect or excuse his behavior. It's true, he's always an idiot, but I think he's probably a scummy idiot based on connections.

See: I'm currently chalking up possible scum teams:

I can loosely see a Zach, Looker, Vi. Vi hasn't strongly attacked Looker or Zach the way he focuses on Pablo and myself. However, Vi has certainly noted the Looker Zach connection, but what's the harm? He lynches one other townie, and its over, so who cares. (Assumes no doc, RB, etc).

Archon being scum wouldn't surprise me too much just because Spring wasn't ambiguous, but I must admit: Spring's attack that only Scum would want people to not be mod killed is ridiculous. Hypothetically, if I was scum, then I would want at least one townie modkilled, right? So, yeah: with that, it looks scummy more than town.

Pablo: Ehh... I'm not going to say I don't see it. He's been fairly scummy, and even though he "turned a new leaf" later in the game, I did the same thing and won't crucify him for that reason alone. Since being called out on it, I definitely think he's been, more or less, pro town.


Has: Potential scum? I dunno. Well... I'd say not. Just...something about Wolf' temp play scream obvs town and Has has given me 0% scum vibes.

Setael: Hm... same as Has, more or less. I can't really come up with any substance indicating him as scum.

FOS: Archon & Vi

Alright, due to this little exchange (and my role pm), I'm startin to get suspicious. I think this crap is staged.

[Vi]

Or, because you just so cleverly forgot this (its cute) I'M TOWN!

I stopped reading here.
The entire point of Mafia is that nobody can

prove

they're Town, and to be frank I'd expect everyone to say they're Town (what, are the Mafia supposed to say they're Mafia?).

obtw, all of your plans pairing me with whoever as scum are flawed. I'm Town, after all. It's pretty scummy for you to overlook such an obvious detail.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Not scummy of you to forgot I AM town, but scummy of you to forget the possibility. Taken out of context, that phrase means something else entirely.

Actually, I will grant you that even in context it was slightly convoluted, but I pray this clarification helps.

[Vi]

Not scummy of you to forgot I AM town, but scummy of you to forget the possibility. Taken out of context, that phrase means something else entirely.

Actually, I will grant you that even in context it was slightly convoluted, but I pray this clarification helps.

If I didn't think there was a possibility of you being Town, I would have hit you harder and sooner. Here I'm simply denying that possibility as being a

probability

.

Come on

fhqwhgads

everyone. B_B has been reduced to using weak appeals to emotion to keep him alive. Quit lurking and vote his scummy rear already.

[Pablo Molinero]

Yeah, the caps "I'M TOWN" was not a good sign, and Looker's subsequent reaction of FoSing Arch and Vi just furthered the hole you're in. I'm not a huge fan of making pairs out of this situation unless they're uber-obvious, because they can quickly make a mess of the situation and are rarely exactly right. We still haven't nailed scum yet, so potential pairs are mere speculation.

I'm close to voting B-B, but Setael and to a lesser extent Arch have been pretty silent. Where do you guys stand?

[Vi]

I'm not a huge fan of making pairs out of this situation unless they're uber-obvious, because they can quickly make a mess of the situation and are rarely exactly right. We still haven't nailed scum yet, so potential pairs are mere speculation.

I can understand this sentiment. With that said,
*Do you agree with the logic behind (Zach-scum OR B_B-scum) -> Looker-scum?
*Do you think that B_B/Looker's reactions to the above lend themselves to the credibility of the case made for their respective lynches?

[Beyond_Birthday]

FOS: Archon & Vi

Alright, due to this little exchange (and my role pm), I'm startin to get suspicious. I think this crap is staged.

If your role pm indicates someone IS scum, and not the fact that your "town" now might be a good time to share it with the rest of us.

@Vi:
Your basically saying that despite the fact you think you have a better case against Zach, you're going to lynch me to get to it? This just supports my theory that you're scum with Zach and Looker.

[Vi]

@Vi:
Your basically saying that despite the fact you think you have a better case against Zach, you're going to lynch me to get to it?

No, I believe you are more likely scum than Zachrulez. Zach was at least kind enough to provide halfway-decent answers to the points against him, instead of melting and accusing his attacker or clinging to any case he could find at the moment.

Incidentally, how did your suspicion just transfer to Looker? The last time I checked, your only case on him was through association - and not the kind that I'm using - and you were quite emphatic a few posts ago that he *is* confirmed to have a VI meta, suggesting that he was not otherwise scummy IYO.

[Looker]

no it just says that i'm town. sorry for the misunderstanding

[Beyond_Birthday]

True, but he makes the most sense as your partner, so it is still association. And I didn't melt, I have no defense for my style of play. If you can't read it, our problem, but I can't really change the past now, can I?

I also don't understand how the body count "points" to me. And if it did, would scum really do this to themselves or to frame others?

[Looker]

...lost...

[Setael]

WOW. You guys have been busy. Checking in to apologize for absence - I'm on spring break and can't catch up right now. Should be able to in a few days. Happy Easter!

[Setael]

Oh and

unvote

since I have no idea what the VC is.

[Vi]

Unofficial Vote Count

Looker (L-2) ~ Archon, Pablo Molinero, hasdgfas

Beyond_Birthday (L-3) ~ Vi, Zachrulez
Zachrulez (L-4) ~ Beyond_Birthday

Minimum (L-5)

Not Voting:

Looker, Setael

I totally just noticed a few minutes ago (doing a vote count for my own game) that this is Easter Sunday, and to expect people to be away a lot.

[Archon]

Confirmed: Archon's always an idiot...

..and enjoys it. Being an idiot outside of real life has no serious or permanent consequences, plus it lets me use the part of me that I have to contain every hour of the day.

...and completely agrees with that statement

Also, where is Archon?
Some Setael would be nice but at least I can tell she's not lurking.

I've been busy. Simple as that. Had alot of freinds over latley, and been doing random crap.

At home for the holidy, so this is short: I've been saying B-B's different treatment of Looker/Arch for a while now, Vi, it's just now that it's been noticed? I don't like the idea of your "Carousel of Death" because it seems like fishing for a kill, any kill, that the town will follow along with. However, I can't exactly begrudge you for doing it to your top 3 suspects since we're assuming there are 3 scum. I'm going to hold off on my vote right now, to see what our favorite punching bags in Looker and Arch say.

Yeah, Vi, I'm not so sure of your vote fishing. Seems... fishy.

Also, I messed up in one of my earlier posts, saying B_B and Looker were not scum together. The opposite is true; if B_B is scum, Looker is absolutely scum.
Zach and B_B, who were both voting Archon at the time, posted after P. Molinero put Looker up to L-1 but before I brought Looker down to L-2. If either were scum and Looker Town, they should have hammered right there and ended the game.

And the reasoning behind this is...?

I have a theory...? I'm not scum...(know this holds no weight but, when it's all said and done, I would have at least liked to have

told

you that i wasn't scum. OCD thing...)

...and then the poor train hit the giant wall of OCD that had randomly appeared in front of it, exploded, fell of the track, rolled down the cliff, and was carried out to the ocean before looker could state his theory.

Or, because you just so cleverly forgot this (its cute) I'M TOWN!

I stopped reading here.
The entire point of Mafia is that nobody can

prove

they're Town, and to be frank I'd expect everyone to say they're Town (what, are the Mafia supposed to say they're Mafia?).

obtw, all of your plans pairing me with whoever as scum are flawed. I'm Town, after all. It's pretty scummy for you to overlook such an obvious detail.

I do really, really hope that you forgot to put a [/sarcasm] at the end of your post.

no it just says that i'm town. sorry for the misunderstanding

Well, looker has to be telling the truth. Everyone knows that no one lies in mafia! [/sarcasm]

Unofficial Vote Count

Looker (L-2) ~ Archon, Pablo Molinero, hasdgfas

Beyond_Birthday (L-3) ~ Vi, Zachrulez
Zachrulez (L-4) ~ Beyond_Birthday

Minimum (L-5)

Not Voting:

Looker, Setael

I totally just noticed a few minutes ago (doing a vote count for my own game) that this is Easter Sunday, and to expect people to be away a lot.

Okay, there has to be a problem with that. SOMEONE HAS to be voting for me, what with the constant shifty-eyed looks and the context that my name is constantly used in.