Mini 773- Welcome to Lynchville! Perfection! (Over)

[afatchic]

Kublai Khan-(2)-BrianMcQueso, PieIsPopcorn

ppp973-(2)- Archaist, alexhans
ChiefSkye4-(1)- LesterGroans
BrianMcQueso-(1)-Light-kun
alexhans-(1)-ppp973
Light-kun-(1)-RedCoyote

Not voting-(4)-cateraction, Cream147, Kublai Khan, ChiefSkye4

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

This includes RedCoyotes vote right below this post.

[RedCoyote]

@ Light-kun: I don't quite get you. From what I understand, you read my first "real" vote as opportunistic, and you voted me because of that. I get that, that's fine. But then you say that PieIsPopcorn and Kublai Khan are both scummy, I'm "low percentage" (meaning less likely to be scum), and from what I read from your post 70, you find Pie's argument against Kublai to be a convincing one.

Is all the above accurate? I'm just trying to get a hold on what you've been posting, but you've been doing it in a confusing manner (IMO, maybe it's just me).

...and he still hasn't unvoted/changed his vote.

Maybe I can give him some tips?

First you say

unvote

, then you say

vote: Light-kun

.

If anyone asks why you're voting for Light-kun, you say it's because he's talking in circles, not responding to the questions he's presented with, and has blantantly contradictory positions.

I feel like I commented on most of the game in #63-64. Is there anything in particular you want me to talk about?

I believe cater is referring to ppp973.

[RedCoyote]

V/LA until 4/14

.

[RedCoyote]

(One more post!)

Just to be clear, in post 76 I was jokingly referring to Light-kun's vote of Brian, not Brian's vote of Kublai Kahn.

[afatchic]

V/LA until 4/14

.

Noted. Thanks for posting.

[Light-kun]

Also... I don't like very much that people start cataloging others as town or townie because that doesn't help at all(IMHO) and is usually a trick by scum to befriend players or remove suspicion from them in a eventual death situation. And can make other people take that towniness for granted too.

Let's focus on finding scum, shall we?

I disagree completely. Making public your belief that "I think player A is town" or "I believe player B might be scum" is the very basic foundation of useful information to hunt scum. If we don't say who we suspect and who we don't suspect, how else are we to find the scum?

@ Light-kun: I don't quite get you. From what I understand, you read my first "real" vote as opportunistic, and you voted me because of that. I get that, that's fine. But then you say that PieIsPopcorn and Kublai Khan are both scummy, I'm "low percentage" (meaning less likely to be scum), and from what I read from your post 70, you find Pie's argument against Kublai to be a convincing one.

Is all the above accurate? I'm just trying to get a hold on what you've been posting, but you've been doing it in a confusing manner (IMO, maybe it's just me).

Wow, honestly, I thought I did this already.

Unvote; Vote Kublai Kahn

When I said opportunistic, I thought I had switched votes to Kublai Kahn for some reason. I suppose that, maybe, I read someone else's unvote/vote KK as my own. Oh well, that's solved. (Yes, your above is accurate, but change that I thought KK, not you, was opportunistic.)

@Pie: What exactly? (I ask this, because I want you to modify what you were asking under the assumption I was voting KK, if that has any bearing. That, and I'm not quite sure what question you posed otherwise.)

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry ahead of time for the long post

I don't really see how this game has been a break in convention. Aggressive questioning during the random stage is generally how I've found games go from being random to serious. And that needs to happen at some point, doesn't it.

Yes, the random phase must turn into the serious phase at some point. But serious questions right at the beginning of the RVS will get joking replies, which is why it's pointless to rush the issue. People making cases based on RVS replies and "defensiveness" are trying to set people up.

As far as I'm aware, one more vote would have not lynched him, or even put him at L-1, or L-2. 4 votes would have put him at L-3, not a huge threat as far as a policy lynch is concerned. And if he is "bound to dig himself into a hole", I fail to see the negatives of putting pressure on him early. That way, we could have examined how that reaction potentially compares to his meta.

Pressure for what? I already said I know his playstyle. It's a non-sequitor playing style. Thus, no reason to vote for him.

Perhaps you and I just have a different definition of "over-aggresive"? I just am questioning details that I'm finding interesting. As far as I'm aware, that's how one scumhunts. Exactly what is wrong with aggressiveness during the early stage of the game?

It's the tone of the whole thing. You're not only questioning details, you're concluding things (others are guilty of this too). To me this doesn't feel like scum-hunting, it feels like framing.

Stuff like this:

I like this post. This was my point completely, and I find it interesting that Kublai didn't really had defensive and snappish connotations the moment I put pressure on him. There were slight hints with that "over-aggression" piece, but it wasn't particularly clear.

It was after Lester asked an (IMO) pretty innocous question that suddenly Kublai gets defensive and starts attacking my method of ending the RVS. It feels like if it were genuine, it would have been more immediate.

Yeah, you see this, this is both snappy and defensive.

Isn't a valid case against a scum. It's a case against the brashness of my playstyle.

I don't know if you're new to mafiascum, but tone means shit when it comes to finding scum. When someone received a role PM that says that they are scum, they don't automatically become rude and crude. Conversely, if someone gets a townie PM, then they don't become civil.

I'm not going to be nice to you, or pleasent, during the course of this game. Until the mod says something to convince me that you're town, you're my enemy. Now, I don't mind being described as "snappy". But yeah, I will be defensive if I'm being accused of things I'm not doing.

And you've never really explain why coherently. You state that my vote is over-aggessive, but you don't explain why this is anti-town. You state that suspecting players too early will simply lead to confusion and chaos, yet you don't explain why this is so.

It leads to confusion and chaos because nobody expects seriousness during the RVS. To be excessively serious during the RVS then judging the "towniness" of responses is a very dubious strategy. In fact, it's perfect for scum to make false cases.

At this point, the action itself isn't as important to me as how you reacted to being called on it. Instead of just waving it off, as you do here, you come up with wanting to avoid a "policy lynch", and qickly attack me for my methods of trying to inject some method into the RVS. If this was your genuine thought when stating such, why wasn't this your initial reaction?

I know I'm getting redundant which is why I hate these wall-o-text quoting style, but it's because I didn't take you seriously. And I never attacked you, I asked a simple question because I was starting to realizing that you were super cereal about your accusation that I was trying to steer a ppp973 lynch.

You are correct that I should have voted you, but I dislike voting for players until I have established why I find them scummy. I didn't have any time, and I wanted to explain both my suspicions, and that I had a new post coming. I could have done it in a much clearer way, and I apologize.

*cough*hypocrite*cough*

vote: PieIsPopcorn

[Archaist]

This game has gotten aggressive pretty soon... Let's all remember we are practically in RVS with not much content. Let's soften the accusations a little because town players wouldn't know for certain that someone is scum for 1 post. Investigate, but be smart. Don't get emotional so soon.

Hard questions are a way to get solid reactions from players. If everyone goes easy on each other nothing will get done. Now who would that benefit most? The mafia. It's precisely because we don't know who's town and who's not that repeated questions are asked. You don't seem comfortable with that though.

Unvote
Vote: alexhans

[LesterGroans]

Sorry, been trying to catch up, was away from the internet for a bit, but for now:

Unvote

[Light-kun]

A Kublai's post 81:

@Pie: This is why I see you two as scummy. You made scummy actions, but you also had a point against Kublai that I agreed with, therefore, I voted Kublai, more scummy, while you were also a high percentage.

[Kublai Khan]

You made scummy actions, but you also had a point against Kublai that I agreed with, therefore, I voted Kublai, more scummy, while you were also a high percentage.

Less commas and more sense, please.

[ChiefSkye4]

Just did a re-read, everyone (of consequence) in isolation, and I find this:

-Kublai Khan's

Since PieIsPopcorn is starting the questioning in the opening 2 pages where people are still going to pop in with their random vote, all he accomplishes is sewing confusion and chaos into the opening procedures.
Better to let everyone show up, say their hellos, make their jokes, etc.., and then leap in with pointed questions. I just don't see the benefit in breaking with convention.

is a little more than, well, not good. This rings as very scummy to me, and even if I agreed with the principle of it (which I don't), the explanation is ridiculous.

-Archaist gives me town vibes, probably because of his vote on...

-Alexhans'

This game has gotten aggressive pretty soon... Let's all remember we are practically in RVS with not much content. Let's soften the accusations a little because town players wouldn't know for certain that someone is scum for 1 post. Investigate, but be smart. Don't get emotional so soon.

worries me and pings my scumdar like crazy. It's very much like KK's, but with, admittedly, more townie intentions in it. Archaist outlined the reasons why it was scummy already, but to reiterate, it seems like Alexhans is uncomfortable with moving out of the RVS, and onto real scumhunting. Hm.

-PieIsPopcorn gives me townie vibes, his scumhunting seems genuine.

FoS Kublai Khan and Alexhans

[Light-kun]

The Alexhans' case is over rated.

At Kublai Kahn: Wow, that post is really convoluted. Fixed.

*This is at PIE using Kublai's post 81 as a reference:

@Pie: These points are why I see both of you as scummy. You done some scummy actions, but you also made a case against Kublai (first); therefore, I voted Kublai over you. He is scummier;although you are also at a high percentage. (100%=proven scum)

[ppp973]

Sorry for being out of here a few days,

unvote Vote no lynch

[ppp973]

add on: We a risking to kill a pro-town, and I think Alex did make a valid point that townies won't want to be lynched.


I was a doctor is a mafia round and I was going to get lynched, but the bus driver saved me. However, the bust driver was working with the mafia.

[ppp973]

Oh and also, Alex, how did I OMGUS you? I said the reason was in my post?

[ChiefSkye4]

add on: We a risking to kill a pro-town, and I think Alex did make a valid point that townies won't want to be lynched.

Uh, if I'm understanding your logic correctly, with that reasoning, we should never lynch until scum jumps out of the bushes screaming "RAWR VOTE MEH." There will always be a risk of lynching town, no matter where or what game you play, but if we lynch to the best of our abilities and logic, we might (I'll even venture a "probably") nail the scum. That's what mafia is.

[Light-kun]

^Agreed.

add on: We a risking to kill a pro-town, and I think Alex did make a valid point that townies won't want to be lynched.


I was a doctor is a mafia round and I was going to get lynched, but the bus driver saved me. However, the bust driver was working with the mafia.

How is this relevant exactly? Also, nolynch is a terrible idea.

[BrianMcQueso]

No-lynch Day 1 is generally accepted as bad. Besides, we generally have lots of leads to go off of. Your suggestion of no-lynch doesn't lead me to believe you are mafia, though. Just new

And not wanting to be lynched isn't pro-town OR anti-town behavior. Nobody wants to be lynched, because it means you don't get to play any more.

[Kublai Khan]

Just did a re-read, everyone (of consequence) in isolation

Nice blinders.

-Kublai Khan's

Since PieIsPopcorn is starting the questioning in the opening 2 pages where people are still going to pop in with their random vote, all he accomplishes is sewing confusion and chaos into the opening procedures.
Better to let everyone show up, say their hellos, make their jokes, etc.., and then leap in with pointed questions. I just don't see the benefit in breaking with convention.

is a little more than, well, not good. This rings as very scummy to me, and even if I agreed with the principle of it (which I don't), the explanation is ridiculous.

What, exactly, is scummy about my opinion? If you disagree with me, that's fine, but since I've posted a more detailed explanation, you're going to have to use more than vague dislike to make a case against me (even if it's only an FOS).

@ppp973 (Re: No Lynch): Next time try playing a newbie game from the beginning. This subject is always covered. Braindead No Lynching gives town no info.

[alexhans]

This game has gotten aggressive pretty soon... Let's all remember we are practically in RVS with not much content. Let's soften the accusations a little because town players wouldn't know for certain that someone is scum for 1 post. Investigate, but be smart. Don't get emotional so soon.

Hard questions are a way to get solid reactions from players. If everyone goes easy on each other nothing will get done. Now who would that benefit most? The mafia. It's precisely because we don't know who's town and who's not that repeated questions are asked. You don't seem comfortable with that though.

Unvote
Vote: alexhans

There are ways to scum hunt and still remain cold. I'm against the emotional attacks that many players seem to do. They quickly vote for anyone get a wrong response and jump at their throats then get OMGUSED and keep fighting a tunnel visioned fight for the rest of the game because they let their emotions cloud they're judgement.
I'm just trying to warn you against that problem so we can avoid getting confused by a townie fight.

-Archaist gives me town vibes, probably because of his vote on...

-Alexhans'

This game has gotten aggressive pretty soon... Let's all remember we are practically in RVS with not much content. Let's soften the accusations a little because town players wouldn't know for certain that someone is scum for 1 post. Investigate, but be smart. Don't get emotional so soon.

worries me and pings my scumdar like crazy. It's very much like KK's, but with, admittedly, more townie intentions in it. Archaist outlined the reasons why it was scummy already, but to reiterate, it seems like Alexhans is uncomfortable with moving out of the RVS, and onto real scumhunting. Hm.

It pings your scumdar like crazy? Wow. I never said I didn't want to leave RVS... I just wanted to make the game tidier so I could understand it better and scum hunt accordingly.

And here'something I'm puzzled about. You both found my statement to be scummy but completely ignored this one?:

Also... I don't like very much that people start cataloging others as town or townie because that doesn't help at all(IMHO) and is usually a trick by scum to befriend players or remove suspicion from them in a eventual death situation. And can make other people take that towniness for granted too.

This could be viewed as scummy with more intensity because I'm telling you not to speak about your thoughts in a way. Not to tell who you think is town. Now I'm not so sure about it. But you didn't speak against it or anything.

I disagree completely. Making public your belief that "I think player A is town" or "I believe player B might be scum" is the very basic foundation of useful information to hunt scum. If we don't say who we suspect and who we don't suspect, how else are we to find the scum?

I didn't say that we shouldnt say who is scum but not who is town so as to not give them so much info about how lost we can be. Not to let them strategize on who to kill or who to push (a lynch). Anyway... I might be wrong about that.

Unvote, vote to lynch A mafiaso

Shessh I was kiddding, someone kept doing that one this sites I was playing at so I did it here

Yeah... well... don't do it because I almost screamed when i saw your vote. A scream of annoyance.

Unvote, vote to lynch A mafiaso

Shessh I was kiddding, someone kept doing that one this sites I was playing at so I did it here

You said that you were scared, only mafia are scared to be lynched when the lynched targeted.

Unvote, Vote Alexhans

for now.

Oh! wow. now I understand... you think that because your vote annoys me then I'm mafia and scared by your -I want to say stupid but i'll say meaningless- vote? and also you OMGUS me? This is really an OH MY GOD YOU SUCK!!!! with all the letters.

Oh and also, Alex, how did I OMGUS you? I said the reason was in my post?

Ok... I almost screamed of annoyance. I was annoyed by your voting no one and pretending to do so. Vote: The mafia, Vote:scum, vote:thebadguys... That's not funny. That's not helpful. I noted that you did that and had my vote on you and you suddenly said that I was scared of getting lynched... How? I had no pressure on me... How did you thought that? I think it was basically voting me for voting you. I saw no valid reasons for your vote so I think it's an OMGUS.

And regarding the No Lynch. I think it's an awful idea. We get info from the votes and all what happens in a day(pressure, voting patterns, etc)

I'm gonna try to make a good re-read because I still haven't understood all the posts in this game. I don't have a clear idea about whats going on until now.

oh... Happy birthday Chief!

[BrianMcQueso]

I disagree completely. Making public your belief that "I think player A is town" or "I believe player B might be scum" is the very basic foundation of useful information to hunt scum. If we don't say who we suspect and who we don't suspect, how else are we to find the scum?

I didn't say that we shouldnt say who is scum but not who is town so as to not give them so much info about how lost we can be. Not to let them strategize on who to kill or who to push (a lynch).

It's Day 1. We're 4 pages in. Of course we're lost! And it's not something that you should worry about the mafia taking advantage of, since this kind of thing happens every game. That's just how it is.

I'm not following how you propose we go about finding scum to lynch. Wild accusations and bold claims have worked before because they force people to react. When everyone sits back and is cautious and timid, everyone acts the same. When you start confronting people, you can see how they react. You can see what's important to them. You can learn their attitudes towards people. And then you can find scum.

I understand you don't want mafia to guide lynches, but we don't know who is mafia and who isn't (or else this game would be really, really easy). We don't have the luxury of knowing if a person voting for another player is "hey, I am a townsperson and I believe this guy is scum" or "hey, I am a Mafia and I'm trying to convince you this guy is scum even though I know otherwise".

In short, I can understand if you don't want to play aggressively, alexhans, but I find it to be the best way to get things done. And by trying to get everyone else to stop being aggressive, it comes off like you're trying to stifle any discussion at all. I know you're not deliberately trying to do that, but that's the impression I'm getting.

And on a separate note, the more I re-read ppp, the less helpful he appears. The silly-voting at the beginning, the no lynch thing, the claims that only mafia would be scared about being lynched... all individually, they just give me the impression that ppp is inexperienced. But... that's all he's been contributing the entire time. He's also drawing so much attention to himself that it doesn't seem like the actions of mafia. I really don't get the feeling he's scum, but he's very unhelpful as well.

[ppp973]

This game has gotten aggressive pretty soon... Let's all remember we are practically in RVS with not much content. Let's soften the accusations a little because town players wouldn't know for certain that someone is scum for 1 post. Investigate, but be smart. Don't get emotional so soon.

Hard questions are a way to get solid reactions from players. If everyone goes easy on each other nothing will get done. Now who would that benefit most? The mafia. It's precisely because we don't know who's town and who's not that repeated questions are asked. You don't seem comfortable with that though.

Unvote
Vote: alexhans

There are ways to scum hunt and still remain cold. I'm against the emotional attacks that many players seem to do. They quickly vote for anyone get a wrong response and jump at their throats then get OMGUSED and keep fighting a tunnel visioned fight for the rest of the game because they let their emotions cloud they're judgement.
I'm just trying to warn you against that problem so we can avoid getting confused by a townie fight.

-Archaist gives me town vibes, probably because of his vote on...

-Alexhans'

This game has gotten aggressive pretty soon... Let's all remember we are practically in RVS with not much content. Let's soften the accusations a little because town players wouldn't know for certain that someone is scum for 1 post. Investigate, but be smart. Don't get emotional so soon.

worries me and pings my scumdar like crazy. It's very much like KK's, but with, admittedly, more townie intentions in it. Archaist outlined the reasons why it was scummy already, but to reiterate, it seems like Alexhans is uncomfortable with moving out of the RVS, and onto real scumhunting. Hm.

It pings your scumdar like crazy? Wow. I never said I didn't want to leave RVS... I just wanted to make the game tidier so I could understand it better and scum hunt accordingly.

And here'something I'm puzzled about. You both found my statement to be scummy but completely ignored this one?:

Also... I don't like very much that people start cataloging others as town or townie because that doesn't help at all(IMHO) and is usually a trick by scum to befriend players or remove suspicion from them in a eventual death situation. And can make other people take that towniness for granted too.

This could be viewed as scummy with more intensity because I'm telling you not to speak about your thoughts in a way. Not to tell who you think is town. Now I'm not so sure about it. But you didn't speak against it or anything.

I disagree completely. Making public your belief that "I think player A is town" or "I believe player B might be scum" is the very basic foundation of useful information to hunt scum. If we don't say who we suspect and who we don't suspect, how else are we to find the scum?

I didn't say that we shouldnt say who is scum but not who is town so as to not give them so much info about how lost we can be. Not to let them strategize on who to kill or who to push (a lynch). Anyway... I might be wrong about that.

Unvote, vote to lynch A mafiaso

Shessh I was kiddding, someone kept doing that one this sites I was playing at so I did it here

Yeah... well... don't do it because I almost screamed when i saw your vote. A scream of annoyance.

Unvote, vote to lynch A mafiaso

Shessh I was kiddding, someone kept doing that one this sites I was playing at so I did it here

You said that you were scared, only mafia are scared to be lynched when the lynched targeted.

Unvote, Vote Alexhans

for now.

Oh! wow. now I understand... you think that because your vote annoys me then I'm mafia and scared by your -I want to say stupid but i'll say meaningless- vote? and also you OMGUS me? This is really an OH MY GOD YOU SUCK!!!! with all the letters.

Oh and also, Alex, how did I OMGUS you? I said the reason was in my post?

Ok... I almost screamed of annoyance. I was annoyed by your voting no one and pretending to do so. Vote: The mafia, Vote:scum, vote:thebadguys... That's not funny. That's not helpful. I noted that you did that and had my vote on you and you suddenly said that I was scared of getting lynched... How? I had no pressure on me... How did you thought that? I think it was basically voting me for voting you. I saw no valid reasons for your vote so I think it's an OMGUS.

And regarding the No Lynch. I think it's an awful idea. We get info from the votes and all what happens in a day(pressure, voting patterns, etc)

I'm gonna try to make a good re-read because I still haven't understood all the posts in this game. I don't have a clear idea about whats going on until now.

oh... Happy birthday Chief!

I am confused, wasn't that in my post . You said you were annoyed by it.

I am just used to writing no lynch on my older sites.


Anyways, I will vote soon after I re-read the last few pages, too buzy hammering Alex.

[ChiefSkye4]

-Kublai Khan's

Since PieIsPopcorn is starting the questioning in the opening 2 pages where people are still going to pop in with their random vote, all he accomplishes is sewing confusion and chaos into the opening procedures.
Better to let everyone show up, say their hellos, make their jokes, etc.., and then leap in with pointed questions. I just don't see the benefit in breaking with convention.

is a little more than, well, not good. This rings as very scummy to me, and even if I agreed with the principle of it (which I don't), the explanation is ridiculous.

What, exactly, is scummy about my opinion? If you disagree with me, that's fine, but since I've posted a more detailed explanation, you're going to have to use more than vague dislike to make a case against me (even if it's only an FOS).

I went back and re-re-read your additional explanations, and I have a bit more understanding now. Your explanations make sense. The initial post still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I understand where you were coming from now though.

It pings your scumdar like crazy? Wow. I never said I didn't want to leave RVS... I just wanted to make the game tidier so I could understand it better and scum hunt accordingly.

Mm, I can respect that, but the original post didn't really seem to send that message. The normal progression of the game must happen at some point, and it seems as if you were prolonging the RVS.

And here'something I'm puzzled about. You both found my statement to be scummy but completely ignored this one?:

Also... I don't like very much that people start cataloging others as town or townie because that doesn't help at all(IMHO) and is usually a trick by scum to befriend players or remove suspicion from them in a eventual death situation. And can make other people take that towniness for granted too.

This could be viewed as scummy with more intensity because I'm telling you not to speak about your thoughts in a way. Not to tell who you think is town. Now I'm not so sure about it. But you didn't speak against it or anything.

Is that in any way, help reveal anyone's alignment?

oh... Happy birthday Chief!

Thank you

[Light-kun]

Can we move off the novice discussion and move more on the KK versus Pie discussion?