Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[Green Crayons]

Because it wasn't a logical argument he was making, it was one just designed to get an emotional reaction out of the people reading. There was nothing wrong with me asking incog what he thought about Ether, there is certanly no reason I wouldn't make those posts as town, and he didn't give a reason; he just tried to discribe my post in such a way as to make people paranoid about my motives.

Maybe I'm dead on the inside, but my emotions weren't riled up. Nor did that little click go off on the inside telling me that I should be feeling emotional about something, but because I'm broken I simply can't experience normal human emotions. I don't see how it wasn't a logical argument - he was criticizing you for 1) misrepping Incog and 2) appealing to (the obvtown Incog's) authority. Even if these accusations are incredibly off base, how are they emotional? They look like they're logical to me, and if incorrect should be defeated with logical explanations - not a "bad emotional attack, bad!" And I'll note that you did respond to him in 346 with a logical defense, but the coupling with the emotional attack/maniuplating label just seems odd. (Shrug)

For the record, I glanced back and couldn't determine what Yos misrepresented (admitted in 225) about Incog's position. A little help, anyone?

What do you think of her 387 re: this point of yours?

Well, like I already said:

Anyway, Ether's last post is giving me a better vibe; the whole thing feels honest to me.

Especally the part when she admitted she lurked in order to avoid dealing with the attack on her; I was pretty sure that was what she was doing, and the fact she admitted it actually makes me feel a little better about her.

That... doesn't actually answer my question at all. I didn't ask what you thought of her post 387 as a whole (which is how you responded). You said that Ether-town would be able to pin you as town because you and she are super tight. Because she hasn't pinned you as town is a reason why you are suspicious of her. Ether said that you and she aren't actually super tight, she just was flying high on an obvtown move you made once. In one other game. Now, assuming you think that this is legitimate, it appears that you were making this case (something along the lines of"Ether should know I'm town because we have a long history of us being town and her pointing out that I'm town when we're both town") off of a large number of games. Ether only points to a single game from where you would have gotten this idea. Don't you think that's a bit incongruous? Also, what if she doesn't find you to be town as she continues to catch up - is this suspicion of yours going to continue to hold up?

=======================

Page 17 Votecount

camn (0/7):
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (0/7):
Ether (2/7): Yosarian2, camn
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (3/7): Incognito, Patrick, DizzyIzzyB13
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (1/7): Green Crayons,
Yosarian2 (3/7): OhGodMyLife, charter, Ether

Not voting (2/12):

skitzer, Korts,

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[Incognito]

Three-part post coming up.

(

Part 1 of 3 - Response to OGML's super-massive post

)

I do admit that Yos2's 225 did bother me a bit. I can certainly see where OGML is coming from when he says it seems like Yos2 was appealing to my authority since, if he was attempting to push a case on someone (in this case Ether) as town, I'd expect him to address

everyone in the game

as to why he believes Ether is scum citing meta-examples or what-have-you that support his ideas for why he believes Ether's play differs here from her typical town play. Instead, he decided to focus on garnering

my

opinions on Ether and didn't seem entirely concerned with addressing anyone else with his Ether-case. It was also interesting that at the time of his post, I think I made it fairly clear that I was leaning against Yos2's claim, so his bringing up of Ether's meta and attempting to get my opinions on it could have been Yos's way of redirecting my attention onto someone other than him.

Does it change your opinions on anything going on?

I don't think so. I'm leaning towards believing the claim at this point. I'm not crazy about Yos2's play so far, but I'm leaning towards believing that Yos2's opinions on millers have changed since he made the post in MD and that maybe he's telling the truth here and is indeed a miller.

Part 2 is next...

[Yosarian2]

Now, assuming you think that this is legitimate, it appears that you were making this case (something along the lines of"Ether should know I'm town because we have a long history of us being town and her pointing out that I'm town when we're both town") off of a large number of games. Ether only points to a single game from where you would have gotten this idea. Don't you think that's a bit incongruous?

First of all, that's not what she said

Yosarian's claim still bugs me. I don't think OGML's insinuations are necessarily valid, but I won't get into that. What I

like

about his play is self-defense and Caffhate, and I do not have the confident meta on him he attributed to me. (Recently, I said I did, but I had a good taste in my mouth from catching a specific townish slip in 728. See 720 for details.) I'll

unvote

, which is shorthand for meh I'll put this off.

In other words, she specifically stated that she SAID she had a confident meta about me when I'm town; she didn't say that in 728, GC, she said that outside of a mafia game. It may have been because of that game, I don't know.

Also, I'm certanly not just basing this on one game; I'm basing this off my experence in several games with Ether.

In any case, I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal about this; it was never a major part of my case against her, nor one I really expected anyone to take too seriously, just one reason amoung many why her play here felt different to me then her play in the several games I've seen her as pro-town recently.

[OhGodMyLife]

In any case, I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal about this; it was never a major part of my case against her, nor one I really expected anyone to take too seriously, just one reason amoung many why her play here felt different to me then her play in the several games I've seen her as pro-town recently.

Not a major part of your case? Bullshit.

You're just playing it down now because I pointed out what a ridiculous position it was to suspect someone because they don't think you're obvtown.

[Yosarian2]

Not a major part of your case? Bullshit.

You're just playing it down now because I pointed out what a ridiculous position it was to suspect someone because they don't think you're obvtown.

Dude, I don't really care what you think is a "ridiculous position" or whatever, especally considering your ridiculous case on me. If I see someone act in a certain way over and over again when they are town, and then I see them act in a radically different way in one game, it's going to make me suspicious. Getting a real meta on Ether isn't easy since she hasn't actually been scum in ages, but that bandawgony vote for me did not look anything like what I would normally expect from town Ether, for a number of reasons.

[Incognito]

(

Part 2 of 3 - Xdaamno's (town) meta

)

I mainly looked through two recently completed games of Xdaamno's to get a general feel of what he plays like as town. I couldn't find any recently completed scum games of his outside of the games he played during Marathon Day and one where he replaced in really late.

Mini 725 - Mafia in Happiville

- I don't think you need to look through too much of this game to notice the differences between his style of play here and there. In 725, he seemed much more assertive, more aggressive, he actively scum-hunted, and seemed to address all or most of the concerns that came up towards him. In our voll-mod game here, I think the difference is quite dramatic: the only thing I really know about Xdaamno is that he thinks GC is town, he thought Patrick was scummy but then he thought he was town-ish, and... that's about it.

Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville

- This was the other game I looked into where he was town and was D1 lynched as town. Interestingly, I think his play in this particular game matches much more closely with the type of play we've been seeing here. He seemed more "on the sidelines" and distanced from everything and less likely to pay attention to what was going on or address points that were made against him.

Conclusions? Meh, it seems like there's two different Xdaamno's out there: One where he actually seems fairly competent and the other where he seems completely clueless and scummy.

I suppose you mean me?

I try not to post unless I have something useful to be doing, because it's actually an effort for me to not look scummy. I get lynched all the time.

In Mini 725, I certainly received a completely different feeling about your play than you led on in this quote. In fact, in that game you were NK-ed during Night 2. You mentioned a few posts back that you know that your playstyle has changed. Did you make a conscious effort to change your style of play into one that appears more scummy/non-contributive? Why did you seem to exhibit two completely different styles of play in these two games when they appeared to be running at the same time and where, in each case, you were aligned on the side of the town?

[Green Crayons]

In other words, she specifically stated that she SAID she had a confident meta about me when I'm town; she didn't say that in 728, GC, she said that outside of a mafia game. It may have been because of that game, I don't know.

Oh. I didn't click the link she had provided - I assumed 728/720 were posts from a certain game (and having now clicked her link, I see that they are not), not actually mini game numbers. So I misread her post, my bad. Then I want some further clarification from Ether: Was it because of a single game that you thought you had this good, developing meta on Yos or were there several in a row (720, then 728?) or what?

Also, I'm certanly not just basing this on one game; I'm basing this off my experence in several games with Ether.

Yes, I stated that this was your position.

In any case, I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal about this; it was never a major part of my case against her, nor one I really expected anyone to take too seriously, just one reason amoung many why her play here felt different to me then her play in the several games I've seen her as pro-town recently.

Uh, I hardly qualify a single question with a follow up because you didn't propertly answer my question as "making such a big deal." Why do you think two posts equates to making a big deal out of something? Don't you think that's a slight overreaction? The way I originally read Ether's post made your claim make no sense or that one of you was lying - that much is obvious from my posts. I mean, it looks like now I was just mistaken because I misread Ether's post, but don't you think players should follow up on two separate accounts that do not add up to the same thing?

Also, I only remember this claim about her not calling you town and the fact that she was lurking as the two reasons why you suspected her. Oh, and that her not mentioning your claim even though she did but because she did it in a tangential way it was scummy. Yeah. So three points, all of them lumped together. I didn't see any sort of distinction that one of them shouldn't be taken as seriously as the others.

Dude, I don't really care what you think is a "ridiculous position" or whatever, especally considering your ridiculous case on me. If I see someone act in a certain way over and over again when they are town, and then I see them act in a radically different way in one game, it's going to make me suspicious. Getting a real meta on Ether isn't easy since she hasn't actually been scum in ages, but that bandawgony vote for me did not look anything like what I would normally expect from town Ether, for a number of reasons.

...it was never a major part of my case against her, nor one I really expected anyone to take too seriously...

Uh... so... Which is it? To be taken seriously or not to be taken seriously? In the first quote, it looks like you're defending it because it's completely legitimate/important (and the reasons as to why). The second quote it looks like you're trying to downplay its importance.

[Yosarian2]

(sigh) I hate to be in the position where I'm forced to defend my case on someone just at the point when I've started to lose confidence in it.

Anyway:

GC: I suppose I should try to be clear here; I've been playing a bit fast and loose this game ever since my miller claim, and so I probably haven't been as careful about my words as I should. The fact she "can usually read me better then this" was one of the things that made her post on me seem so off, that made me personally suspicious of her, and I did mention that a couple of times. That being said, I didn't really expect that to convince many other people (or at least not until after I was dead and showed up as town; at the point when I attacked Ether, I was kind of expecting to be lynched at any minute, considering I had like 4 votes on me appear almost instantly after I claimed), for the reason you gave; even if someone accepts my reasoning, they don't know my alignment either. So I really do think that it was a legitimate reason for me personally to suspect her; however, at the same time, it wasn't really an argument I'd expect other people to take too seriously, and I would have been surprised if anyone quoted that specific part of my argument, agreed with it, and voted Ether because of it.

[Green Crayons]

(sigh) I hate to be in the position where I'm forced to defend my case on someone just at the point when I've started to lose confidence in it.

I can understand that, but I also think you can explain the motivation/thought process you had at the time even if you no longer agree with it/now think it's weak. Which I think you just did quite well (it makes sense and is a legitimate division of who would interpret it and how) - but that doesn't really mesh well with your defensive attitude (really? I was making a big deal out of it?) when it was apparently so easy to explain (as seen here). Whatever.

I suppose you mean me?

I try not to post unless I have something useful to be doing, because it's actually an effort for me to not look scummy. I get lynched all the time.

In Mini 725, I certainly received a completely different feeling about your play than you led on in this quote. In fact, in that game you were NK-ed during Night 2. You mentioned a few posts back that you know that your playstyle has changed. Did you make a conscious effort to change your style of play into one that appears more scummy/non-contributive? Why did you seem to exhibit two completely different styles of play in these two games when they appeared to be running at the same time and where, in each case, you were aligned on the side of the town?

And because I know he has a propensity to "miss" things that have been directed towards him,

I would really like Xdaamno to answer these questions

. Thanks.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Just as I read:

Dizzy's 308 is ridiculous. She has successfully become too conservative to a fault - getting to page 13 without a single suspect is incredibly bad play. Her 320 is a bad excuse as to why she hasn't made a solid commitment yet. However, I still only see town vibes coming from her, so I don't understand all of the Dizzy hate except that it might be coming from opportunistic scumbags.

The original top three came at the top of page 11. Between then and my 308, attention was on theoretical debates as to the merits of top three and generally defending myself. I don't see how exactly I could have done more in that period?

[Incognito]

(

Part 3 of 3 - Catching up to the recent

)

However, I still only see town vibes coming from her, so I don't understand all of the Dizzy hate except that it might be coming from opportunistic scumbags.

Who specifically do you think might be an opportunistic scumbag?

Dizzy-hate equated to me, Ether, and charter for the most part and you recently labeled me as "obvtown", Ether you had down as "leaning town", so I'm assuming that leaves charter?

Incog, nice way to avoid realposting. Please answer my questions.

No.

I'm curious as to why you want

me

specifically to respond to your questions when you previously mentioned that you were receiving a scummy vibe off of me. Now you want me to bring forth the points

I

find notable? Why would you trust the opinion of someone you consider scummy? I don't think you're being sincere here, and I think you're beginning to look a lot like lazy scum.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

DizzyIzzy, since you don't seem to believe in pressure votes and the like, I'm assuming you'd be willing to carry your Korts-vote to a lynch? Correct me if I'm wrong.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

I'm still waiting on these "issues" that both Korts and skitzer supposedly had about my play. Or does it take the both of you this long to manufacture suspicion?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It's inaccurate to say I don't believe in pressure votes, but I don't necessarily use them as a lot of people would. At the moment, though, I'm willing to lynch Korts. I believe there's enough of a reason for it to be a good lynch for now, though I'm open to changing my mind if the evidence points that way.

[Green Crayons]

The original top three came at the top of page 11. Between then and my 308, attention was on theoretical debates as to the merits of top three and generally defending myself. I don't see how exactly I could have done more in that period?

Yeah, and in regards to that page 11 top three, you said that it "...is essentially a response to a request with little to no relevence or meaning" (308). So, your original top three (which you don't like anyways) had no relevance or meaning - your words, here. So it was worthless. So, you weren't going from just page 11 to 13 to look at who you suspect. You were looking at a full 13 pages, and in that span you had given us a worthless top three that we should take with a grain of salt and a definitive "no suspects" claim. So, please don't try to twist your 308 into being "no suspects since 250's top three." You can have most certainly done something in the past 13 pages.

Dizzy-hate equated to me, Ether, and charter for the most part and you recently labeled me as "obvtown", Ether you had down as "leaning town", so I'm assuming that leaves charter?

Ether is on neutral-read ground these days. I think that leaning town was put out there prior to her lengthy lurk, and that definately knocked her down into no-longer-town territory (especially since she recognized that her low activity was an issue and then promptly became a super-lurker). But, yes, I was recalling charter's posts, specifically, when I made that comment.

[skitzer]

OGML: I'm curious why you deny the existence of a miller on Day 1 when nobody's dead and almost anything is possible.

Am I incorrect in deducting that the case on Korts is mostly in his playstyle? It's lurky, but aren't we in agreement that lurky doesn't necessarily mean scummy?

Incognito: It's been so long, I don't remember any issues about you from me other than your opinion on Izzy.

[charter]

Yes, you can. If, that is, you're not just looking to latch onto the first thing that vaguely doesn't sit right and call scum. Scum aren't the only people who act scummy. The art is sifting between occasional lapses by townies and discerning patterns of scumminess. I don't see patterns emerging yet, just confusion emerging from narrow focus and general theory discussion that does not necessarily add to the data from which opinions can be formed.

Ok... So your plan is to just sit and do nothing until you see a connection? What day do you think this is going to happen on? Why should we let you coast through until this point?

DizzyIzzy's last few posts have been solid. I'm beginning to feel much better about her alignment actually lol.

Wierd, I'm feeling more and more like she's scum.

Gee, thats funny. You blatantly defended Yos shortly after his roleclaim by questioning my motives for voting him, yet at the same time you were voting him. If thats not the recipe for scum distancing, I just don't know what is.

If that's what you're calling it. All I said was you didn't catch Yos like you claimed you did. He did it for everyone.

This post is obvious bet hedging. If DizzyIzzy gets lynched today, fantastic for charter he just scored a mislynch. If Yos2 gets lynched today, sucks that he lost a partner, but at least he's making some inroads on getting Izzy lynched tomorrow for his trouble.

How on earth do you think Dizzy is a mislynch? What has she done that is remotely protown to you?

Here is where charter quietly slips off the Yos2 wagon now that it looks like he might be safe for the day. And on top of that, he pulls the same "Appeal to Page Number" crap. (That tell really needs a better name.)

If Yos becomes a viable lynch target again I will be right back there. Else I think my vote is better on Dizzy than just wasting usefulness on Yos.

Now its my turn to get an idea for who's actually reading my posts.

I only read the parts where I saw my name in that monster. If there's other stuff I should have read, can you bold it or something?

Even happier with my Dizzy vote after calling out other noncontributers and voting Korts.
Korts needs to read or be replaced.

[Korts]

Instead of giving me all this flak for not catching up, you could have given me a few pointers. If the fact that I started with a page of backlog and ended up with nine while constantly reading up is not enough proof that I'm not capable at this point of reading everything, then I don't know what is.

A question: why is Incog considered so pro-town? Is it a build-up of a constant series of helpful scumhunting posts?

Meanwhile Yos is not looking good in my eyes, considering 402. In one post you declare that you suspect Ether to be scum based heavily on the fact that she has not stated a town read on you even though she always (?) does when both of you are town; in a post not so much later you downplay it as a minor point in your case. Can you reiterate the other points in your case on her?

I'm curious as to why you want me specifically to respond to your questions when you previously mentioned that you were receiving a scummy vibe off of me. Now you want me to bring forth the points I find notable? Why would you trust the opinion of someone you consider scummy? I don't think you're being sincere here, and I think you're beginning to look a lot like lazy scum.

I have made

two

posts in short succession saying that I wanted these questions answered by everyone--what makes you think I only want you to do so? And the fact that I want you to answer them does not mean by far that I trust your judgement; in fact it should help in forming a better read on you if I can contrast your version of events with others'.

I'm still waiting on these "issues" that both Korts and skitzer supposedly had about my play. Or does it take the both of you this long to manufacture suspicion?

My issue was when in the beginning of the game you attacked me you seemed to piggyback on Patrick's case. I didn't "manufacture suspicion" because I had hopes then of catching up soon.

It's inaccurate to say I don't believe in pressure votes, but I don't necessarily use them as a lot of people would. At the moment, though, I'm willing to lynch Korts. I believe there's enough of a reason for it to be a good lynch for now, though I'm open to changing my mind if the evidence points that way.

What are those good reasons you seem to be talking about? That I lagged behind and opted for a quick summary instead of toiling for another week or so? Please consider the fact that there are three week deadlines with no extension and we're at the end of the second week--after all this, which do you think is more unhelpful, if I keep lagging behind, or if I skip nine pages and try to interact?

skitzer: I am many things, but lurky is not one of them. I apologize for my performance so far here, but I take pride in being as active as I can.

[Korts]

Oh and

unvote, vote: DizzyIzzy

[Yosarian2]

Can you reiterate the other points in your case on her?

No, I'd rather not. If you have any questions about why I suspected her, I'll answer them, but I'm not going to repeat an entire case I am no longer confident in.

In fact,

unvote:Ether

[Patrick]

Am I incorrect in deducting that the case on Korts is mostly in his playstyle? It's lurky, but aren't we in agreement that lurky doesn't necessarily mean scummy?

Actually I do think scum are more likely to lurk than town, and that alot of people don't appreciate that. I've found it to be especially true in games with fairly strict deadlines. A small part of me wonders if you typed that last sentence to see if you could excuse away your own lurking. Have you got any opinions yet on those cases you said you'd read up on? Why are you so passive?

Instead of giving me all this flak for not catching up, you could have given me a few pointers. If the fact that I started with a page of backlog and ended up with nine while constantly reading up is not enough proof that I'm not capable at this point of reading everything, then I don't know what is.

I'd hardly call it proof, since you could easily be lying. Without wishing to sound harsh, nine pages doesn't seem like that much to read up on.

A question: why is Incog considered so pro-town? Is it a build-up of a constant series of helpful scumhunting posts?

There's been some places where his reads have seemed weird to me, which is notable because we tend to think along similar lines, but my feeling is that he's playing more like his town meta rather than the more low key scum version I saw in SPQR. The way he unvoted Izzy when she seemed to be picking up more flak seemed town to me as well, though I realise that depends on your view of how valid the case against Izzy is. I'm leaning town on him. I would, however, like Incognito to try and articulate his charter town vibes if he still has them, because I'm getting the opposite feeling, especially after his last.

Maybe more tomorrow - on first glance the debates between GC/Yos2/OGML didn't seem that interesting though.

[camn]

OGML: I'm curious why you deny the existence of a miller on Day 1 when nobody's dead and almost anything is possible..

And I wonder if he has role-based info as to the NONexistence of a miller?

[Ether]

Canary, I have no idea how I'm going to wind up from here. It worked last time, and I do feel better. (That whole "posting after midnight" thing has apparently not gone away yet. It

feels

early, dammit.)

As we've established, Yosarian's Caffhate has not been a problem to me. I don't see the harm in him answering Korts's question, but it's a dumb question. The sinister motivation for backing up would be caring more about getting me lynched than about how scummy I actually am, but he was wavering on me by that point.

I like Izzy's vote, actually, even though it's easy to make--I like the Kortshate. I want him to elaborate on his specific Izzyvote there; it cannot seriously be her pressuring him to catch up.

However, to be helpful, I suggest that he force himself to read all or almost all of the thread in one sitting, keeping up a notepad window to cover stuff that interests him as he's going along. Don't force yourself to be really elaborate. Rantbuddies are also nice. Try to start early in the day and get eight hours of sleep; getting eight hours of sleep is pretty cool.

Charter, you were in the second game Incognito linked to--what do you think of Xdaamno?

Camn, do you find Charter scummy? (Heh.)

Ether: Are you scum?

No.

[Korts]

Ether: the reason for my Izzyvote is quite simple: she stated an intention to specifically lynch me based simply on the fact that with a week left of Day 1 I decided not to toil away with an increasing amount of reading material and try to interact. I can't believe that she doesn't have any better suspects. It seems more like an alibi-vote than anything.

And thanks for the advice, I will try to make time for some reading.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ether: the reason for my Izzyvote is quite simple: she stated an intention to specifically lynch me based simply on the fact that with a week left of Day 1 I decided not to toil away with an increasing amount of reading material and try to interact. I can't believe that she doesn't have any better suspects. It seems more like an alibi-vote than anything.

And thanks for the advice, I will try to make time for some reading.

Please. You deliberately avoided the game and lurked. That's scummy behaviour. You've refused to catch up and contribute. Also scummy behaviour. You've attempted to find other people's opinions to latch on to to avoid the accountability of having your own. That's scummy. When you get enough votes that you have a bandwagon, suddenly you're all over this game like crabs on Paris Hilton. That's scummy.

Nothing of your behaviour in this game has been townish. You're a good candidate for a lynch, and the best one at the moment. I'm happy with my Korts vote.

What do the rest of you think? Is my Kortscase flawed in any way? I'm willing to yield to a convincing argument, but I'm unable to find one myself.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

EBWOP: I also forgot that your vote for me is based solely on OMGUS. Which, y'know, at this stage of the game is also scummy.

[Green Crayons]

[quote="Korts"]Ether: the reason for my Izzyvote is quite simple: she stated an intention to specifically lynch me based simply on the fact that with a week left of Day 1 I decided not to toil away with an increasing amount of reading material and try to interact.[quote]So you're OMGUSing her because she voted an unwilling, non-interactive lurker (you)? Heh.