Open 122 - Near Vanilla (Game over)

[camn]

Alright, no more L/A, but I'm going to be busy tonight. I protected Spyrex last night.

I'll have something by tomorrow; I'm going to need some time to do a full reread.

Noted. Sorry simulpost. Glad you are back.

[ZazieR]

The '' votecount

ac1983fan(0)
camn(1) - Kreriov
maadneet(0)
zwetschenwasser(0)

Kreriov(2) - SpyreX, VP Baltar

SpyreX(0)
Ztife(1) - camn
hewitt(1) - zwetschenwasser
VP Baltar(1) - hewitt

Not voting(3) - ac1983fan, maadneet, Ztife

With 9 alive, you'll need 5 votes to lynch.
Note: Green indicates closest to lynch.

EXTRA: I deleted the last two posts. A new player came in, and camn asked who he was. In case players are interested what was said:

true that not make for fair

who tf are you?

Scram, troll.

[ac1983fan]

Is it just me, or does kreriov get scummier and scummier with every post he makes?
Seriously, literally every time I read a post of his, I start thinking he's more likely to be scum.

Also,

mod, I think you've got a mistake in the votecount - I believe camn is voting Ztife, not Ztife voting Ztife.

[VP Baltar]

Ac and Spyrex, could you give your thoughts on Kreriov's whole 'I should just be lynched now' comments from yesterday? Do you think scum would do that?

[ZazieR]

Is it just me, or does kreriov get scummier and scummier with every post he makes?
Seriously, literally every time I read a post of his, I start thinking he's more likely to be scum.

Also,

mod, I think you've got a mistake in the votecount - I believe camn is voting Ztife, not Ztife voting Ztife.

Changed already.

[Kreriov]

@All - Frankly, I am just sick and tired of Baltar driving so much and so incorrectly. I know its alot, but go back over the entire exchange. He accuses me initially and I respond. (Yes, just like SpyreX said. Um, isn't that how its supposed to work? Someone challenges you so you respond?) Anyway, I start off neutral and responsive, trying hard to answer his questions. I don't mind people questioning me, that is how the game is supposed to work. However, when the person questioning finds fault with absolutely everything you say, twists your words, makes insinuations, builds a false case made of smoke and mirrors, after a bit it gets old. Look how long it took me to decide Baltar was scum, pages and days. I was patient thinking he was being a zealous townie. Well, after a bit, his constant, unrelenting attacks convinced me that he was scum hoping I would do exactly as I did, make longer, more angry posts. Go and read and see what happens when I try to bring up issues I am concerned about. He does not address them, he says I am trying to deflect attention from myself even though I make sure to try and refute his allegations or answer his questions first. I did not start suspecting everything Baltar says until much later when it became obvious to me that he was using me to confuse and distract.

For example, why have we not discussed the actual voting pools on people? How many scum do people think were on the empking lynch? The Mufasa lynch? The Dejkha lynch? You all know exactly who I think are scum, Camn, Baltar, and SpyreX. At the very least, do you think at least 2 scum were on Dejkha's lynch? From my standpoint, that is absolutely true.

Again, if I am lynched, think about that. Assume I am town or lynch me and know it to be true, that means 2 of the 4 not voting for Dejkha are town, another is almost certainly town (Madneet) with only Hewitt as the question mark. As it is right now, Madneet is almost certainly town, which leaves just myself and Hewitt as possible scum not on the lynch. Do you REALLY think we are both scum? In which case, why are we not focusing more on the people who were actually ON Dejkha's lynch. I think there are 3 scum in that batch and its pretty logical to think there are at least two. Why are we not focusing on them? It was WAY to easy to lynch Dejkha given that at least 2 townies were not going to be on the lynch and, whatever your thoughts about me, I certainly wasn't.

As to why I keep saying lynch me, I will say it again. As town, its pretty much my job. I want to ensure that either someone who I think is scum gets lynched, or to be the sacrificial lamb making sure a mislynch gets the town the best, most pertinent information. If I am lynched and when I turn up townie, that would mean Baltar had led the wagon on two townies. How could you NOT lynch him next?

[zwetschenwasser]

You're flinging accusations at random people on the sole basis of number probability. I don't like that at all, on top of the fact that you referred yourself as town at least 20 times in that post.

[Kreriov]

Well, why don't you suggest something then? Basically all we have now is Baltar and SpyreX saying everything I do is in reaction to them. Not true. I see votes from Camn/Hohum that are very suspicious and at best the get a passing glance because no one takes the time to really talk about those votes. Even the discussion about the JK was basically the same three people telling me I am idiot for even discussing it and a few others sort of making passing comments. What exactly do you think we should be doing Zwet?

I did not fling a single new accusation. I asked how many scum do you think were on the various lynches, particularly Dejkhas, and why. Obviously you do not think it was three. Do you think it at least 2? If less than 2, why?

[camn]

If I am lynched and when I turn up townie, that would mean Baltar had led the wagon on two townies. How could you NOT lynch him next?

Because generally, scum don't lead wagons. They try to NOT be scummy.

Do you have any comments on my Ztife case?
I think he is one of the at least 1 scum on the Dej wagon.

[Kreriov]

Not true Camn. Scum certainly do lead wagons.

As for your Ztife case, points a and b I think are accurate.

Point c, I can see it. I am not sure I would call it panicked, but close enough. It seems very opportunistic.

Point e, I don't see at all. It might not be reasoning to your liking (or mine in some places), but it does make sense.

Could you please explain the following:

just as I am trying to derail the Dej wagon

What? You tried to derail the Dej wagon? By derail do you mean hammering it home?

[camn]

When I jumped OFF the wagon... Ztife jumped ON. That seems interesting to me, and fits into my gambit as something-scum-would-do.

c

[Kreriov]

Wait, what?

This is exactly what you said about your 'ac9183fan' gambit.

He didn't, so he looked pretty town to me....not that I was going to waste any time defending him.
SO>>>>
I flipped the wagon, and I was thinking that IF dej was scum, any scum would very quickly follow me onto a town-wagon.
Alternatively, if he were town, NO scum would follow me onto a scum-wagon.

This gambit has almost convinced me of Ac1983's being scum.

Obviously I couldn't explain that then, because it would have totally blown the gambit.

And now you say this?

When I jumped OFF the wagon... Ztife jumped ON. That seems interesting to me, and fits into my gambit as something-scum-would-do.

Which is it? Your say gambit was to get scum to follow you onto ac1983fan. I point out that your complete failure in logic as well as the horrible execution of it, and now you say no no, really I was trying to see who would jump ON to Dejkha's wagon? And then you hammer anyway because Ztife hopped on and must be scum trying to kill a townie? REALLY?

[Ztife]

Wow, calm down. Im preparing my post and 4 more pops up...

[Ztife]

nice

1) I wasn't fence sitting. I was supporting the a emp lynch, he was either scum, or a townie that is more of a hindrance than help when he posts. The other end of the "fence" was basically about not being able to find a stronger case than emp. I believe I have re-explained this at least once per day, this is a weak case. I can open up the whole case and re-elaborate if you want.
Post 993 is an example.

2) Non commital? I wasn't getting a read. I was also about to comment about maad and mufasa but the hammer was quickly down. From memory, I was leaning towards lynching maad, but that was without a good read.

3) Panic vote?
Here, i'll elaborate this one for you. I actually thought your vote for Dej was a bus. Unfortunately, that was wrong as Dej turn out town. It could still be that you are trying to look less scummy though.

Angry scum hammer themselves all the time? That's bullcrap, since townie WOULD hammer themselves for a mislynch to clear suspicious points to town, while scum would LIE about a self hammer "to proof to the town blah blah" and look townie, while when the actual hammer comes, they hesitate because self hammering just proves.. that your points are lies and you are a scum. Saying an angry scum hammer themselves makes no sense, its about as good as saying a stupid scum will do scummy slips all the time.

I don't see what post 1117 tries to say in your quote? It was done because I thought Dej was scum.

In 1242, Gut-feelings, etc. Im too lazy to quote for now, Not too relevant.

For the 2nd part, I was refering to the one-liners you were trading, that seems similiar to zwet style. Since you weren't even seeing a relevance to hewitt's scuminess in your questions, what were you doing? Chatting instead of scum-hunting? What hewitt thinks or wants to know about your gambit issin't contributing to scum hunting? If hewitt scum hunts, it issin't relevant to scum hunting? Not sure what you are trying to point to.

Anyway, feel free to question more. I felt this was more of a fishing for reaction rather than a proper case. Overall my understanding of you as a player was extremely linear reasoning, and I don't see your inconsistencies and ambiguity as scummy, rather more from your impatience and own logic.

You have a fixed reverse psychology in mind, so whatever your gambits and theories seem to be fixed on that. You think that people who do scummy things are more likely town because scums won't do that, and vice versa. Im telling you right now these i don't think these work well

in this game

simply because we have too many straight cut (or "noob style" as you might call it) players who would do things just as they should. For instance, you really think mufasa was trying to pull off a gambit and drawing a night kill? Why would mafia not lynch maad now that they know he is doc? I'm an observer player while you have a passive aggression style, but I like to fish for reactions of what people think of each other's actions and try to draw out inconsistencies.

[Ztife]

@ Zwet, do you think VP is town? How does he look townie to you if so?

[SpyreX]

Ac and Spyrex, could you give your thoughts on Kreriov's whole 'I should just be lynched now' comments from yesterday? Do you think scum would do that?

Now, as my awesome sig shows, I've been scum a whole one time. However, I have pulled that move AS town and...well, I was left around until lylo when they lynched me and lost.

I'll admit it has me worried some, but it doesn't clear away the scum from the rest of the play. And, really, what it has me worried MOST about is this being a bus - because in that scenario with no investigative roles it could be a walk on easy street for Scum-Baltar.

Of course, I am generally paranoid so.

BUT:

Is it just me, or does kreriov get scummier and scummier with every post he makes?
Seriously, literally every time I read a post of his, I start thinking he's more likely to be scum.

What the hell is this. "Hey I'm prepping up to join the bandwagon without giving any concrete reason for so."

Unvote, Vote AC

This is part and parcel of a larger issue.

Empking(7) - hohum, Kreriov, Ztife, mufasa, hewitt,

ac1983fan

, maadneet.
dejkha(6) - VP Baltar,

ac1983fan

, zwetschenwasser, SpyreX, Ztife, camn

And the reasons for them:

You know what? vote: Empking
I think you are the most anti-town player in the game, and your refusal to budge on anything makes it impossible for us to try and find actual scum; if you are scum, it's just a bonus.

Ok, well, I think the points VP is bringing up against dejkha and dejkha's cases-that-aren't-really-cases against VP and Zwet makes me wanna do this:
vote: dejkha
I think you are very scummy.

I am happy with either an AC or Krer lynch today.

@All - Frankly, I am just sick and tired of Baltar driving so much and so incorrectly. I know its alot, but go back over the entire exchange. He accuses me initially and I respond. (Yes, just like SpyreX said. Um, isn't that how its supposed to work? Someone challenges you so you respond?) Anyway, I start off neutral and responsive, trying hard to answer his questions. I don't mind people questioning me, that is how the game is supposed to work.

However, when the person questioning finds fault with absolutely everything you say, twists your words, makes insinuations, builds a false case made of smoke and mirrors, after a bit it gets old.

Look how long it took me to decide Baltar was scum, pages and days. I was patient thinking he was being a zealous townie. Well, after a bit, his constant, unrelenting attacks convinced me that he was scum hoping I would do exactly as I did, make longer, more angry posts. Go and read and see what happens when I try to bring up issues I am concerned about.

He does not address them, he says I am trying to deflect attention from myself even though I make sure to try and refute his allegations or answer his questions first.

I did not start suspecting everything Baltar says until much later when it became obvious to me that he was using me to confuse and distract.

See those bolded parts? Those things you keep saying over and over. Prove them. Use some time, pull out the posts, and show with examples how these are happening.

That right there is one of the reasons why you are so scummy. I..seriously.

For example, why have we not discussed the actual voting pools on people? How many scum do people think were on the empking lynch? The Mufasa lynch? The Dejkha lynch? You all know exactly who I think are scum, Camn, Baltar, and SpyreX. At the very least, do you think at least 2 scum were on Dejkha's lynch? From my standpoint, that is absolutely true.

Well, I said pretty clearly if its less than 2 scum on the Empking lynch I am going to be very sad (and that is code for the town will not win this). Bringing up mufasa makes me :faceplam: for two reasons but that can sit.

Then you bring up the Dejkha lynch (the one lynch you werent on) as the one that has not only one, but TWO scum on it: hint, you are saying the scum are active on the one wagon you weren't on AND the one that would give the most suspicion.

Oddly enough (or not oddly because good lord) you dont mention AC (who was on the wagon) OR Ztife (who was also on the wagon). Now, why is that.

Those questions are loaded, and in a bad, bad way.

Again, if I am lynched, think about that. Assume I am town or lynch me and know it to be true, that means 2 of the 4 not voting for Dejkha are town, another is almost certainly town (Madneet) with only Hewitt as the question mark. As it is right now, Madneet is almost certainly town, which leaves just myself and Hewitt as possible scum not on the lynch. Do you REALLY think we are both scum? In which case, why are we not focusing more on the people who were actually ON Dejkha's lynch. I think there are 3 scum in that batch and its pretty logical to think there are at least two. Why are we not focusing on them? It was WAY to easy to lynch Dejkha given that at least 2 townies were not going to be on the lynch and, whatever your thoughts about me, I certainly wasn't.

As to why I keep saying lynch me, I will say it again. As town, its pretty much my job. I want to ensure that either someone who I think is scum gets lynched, or to be the sacrificial lamb making sure a mislynch gets the town the best, most pertinent information. If I am lynched and when I turn up townie, that would mean Baltar had led the wagon on two townies. How could you NOT lynch him next?

No. God no. If you are town your job is to

lynch scum

. Thats it. No going down in a ball of glory that, despite how many times you say it, does not MEAN Baltar is scum.

Now, if you're scum your job is to be a giant distraction and get townies lynched - if possible without getting your hands dirty or standing out. Now, that you've been trying to do.

[SpyreX]

*sigh* Ohh great moddy mod, can you fix my quote

What are you talking about ?

[Ztife]

actually, i have the full vote counts saved. here's a recap.

D1)
Empking(7) - hohum, Kreriov, Ztife, mufasa, hewitt, ac1983fan, maadneet

D2)
Mufasa(7) - Kreriov, maadneet, zwetschenwasser, hewitt, Dejkha, SpyreX, Kmd4390
(CC) maadneet(3) - VP Baltar, mufasa, ac1983fan

D3)
dejkha(6) - VP Baltar, ac1983fan, zwetschenwasser, SpyreX, Ztife, camn

[Ztife]

I'm waiting to hear what zwet has to say about VP before i post MY observations about

VP and AC

.

[VP Baltar]

I think ac being on all three townie lynches while not presenting very much scum hunting at all in this game sort of screams lurker scum.

[hewitt]

Because generally, scum don't lead wagons. They try to NOT be scummy.

What??? That would clear Kreriov, SpyreX, zwets, myself, and yourself just from today's voting...

I don't think that logic makes sense at all.

[SpyreX]

I dont think he was on the "townie" lynch of muf.

[camn]

that looks like a pretty town list, if you ask me...

[hewitt]

that looks like a pretty town list, if you ask me...

What? Weren't you just attacking Kreriov a couple hours ago saying that you would vote for him?

[VP Baltar]

@ Spyrex--oops, yeah you're right. scratch that.