Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over


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Post Post #500 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:55 am

Post by Xdaamno »

*were



=======================
Page 21 Votecount

camn (0/7):
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (0/7):
Ether (0/7):
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (3/7): Incognito, Patrick, DizzyIzzyB13
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (2/7): Green Crayons, Korts
Yosarian2 (3/7): OhGodMyLife, charter, Ether

Not voting (3/12):

skitzer, Yosarian2, camn

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================
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Post Post #501 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:56 am

Post by Korts »

Xdaamno wrote:
Korts wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:
Korts wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:Secondly, though, would you have thought my short post would have been less suspiscious if it was merged with my other posts sandwiching it?
It wouldn't have been much less suspicious, since the scumtell is the fact that you bring attention to the fact that you intend to scumhunt; but either way the fact that there was nothing afterwards that would've been the bottom slice of bread is an indicator that it was just fluffposting for town cred.
OK, I agree.
unvote, vote: Xdaamno
What?
:x
You cannot defend yourself, so you agree with me to appease me? You've admitted both to intentional credfishing and lack of following up on your stated intent to scumhunt, with this unconditional agreement with my argument. Why are there no buts? You could've tried buddying up less blatantly.
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Post Post #502 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:05 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Yes, it is a scumtell that I forgot to follow up, although a minor one as I would argue. Also, as I said in my pre-empt, I also recognize that it was an indicator I was fluffposting, but I was not. I was agreeing to the fact it wouldn't have been much less suspiscious, not to the other points in particular, although they were fine with me and have already been established.

(yes, I make the mistake of always being 'technically' correct rather than being 'obviously' correct, and not clarifying my posts at the time of writing. I will try to stop doing that.)

(obvious town read on korts)
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Post Post #503 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:10 am

Post by DizzyIzzyB13 »

Xdaamno wrote:(obvious town read on korts)
Well, that's about all the evidence we need for a Korts lynch. :p
Show
DizzyIzzyB13: For the record, I /ghooked Cogitate :p
ChannelDelibird: Well, for the record, FUCK YOU
ChannelDelibird: ;_;
DizzyIzzyB13: Cogitate is shorter. :(
DizzyIzzyB13: Sorry, CD
ChannelDelibird: Well, at least that's the first time a girl has told me "it's not short enough"
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Post Post #504 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:22 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Why do I get the feeling nobody actually reads what I write?
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Post Post #505 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:12 pm

Post by Patrick »

I've fallen behind with all these new posts. Should be able to catch up tomorrow.
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Post Post #506 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:00 pm

Post by Green Crayons »

GC's Big Post of Fun Time Goodness

(Aka: Why aren't you voting Xdaamno yet - with limited GC vs. X textwall bullshit!)


I'm tired of people continually pointing out suspicious things Xdaamno is doing but not putting a vote on him. The current deadline is five days from now and I want people to start thinking seriously about a X lynch. These are the three main issues I have had with his play. I've tried to trim this down to be as least eye bleeding as possible.

Point One: Bad Patrick Attack


His initial post was crap and he was called out by Yos on his lack of contribution. Solution? Come up with a completely contrived point of suspicion against Patrick!

Synposis of attack
(feel free to check his original post and determine if you disagree with me):
Patrick is making stuff up that doesn't actually interest him (I think the assumption is because scum don't get interested in things?) because 1. Patrick operates differently than X and 2. Patrick's natural phraseology is suspicious. (Did you just throw up in your mouth a little bit? Because I did.)

Patrick responds to these two points:
1. Patrick pretty much rips to shreds X's really bad logic by explaining A) X's assertions of the facts are actually false (*cough*lies*cough*) B) explains the motivation and thought process behind the original questioning and C) questions why X thinks this reasonable/relevant line of questioning is unreasonable/irrelevant.
2. Patrick says his natural phraseology is going to stick around.

Now, stop. What would be the response you would expect to see in reply by X? Maybe a comment about why X feels his suspicions were warrented? Maybe a response to Patrick's question why X felt like Patrick's OGML comments were manufactured? Heh. That's what you would think.

Instead, we get X completely ignoring any sort of follow up to the meat of this thread (why he suspected Patrick in the first place) with a "town reaction" handwave. He also throws in that he wasn't asking Patrick to change his phraseology. Phraseology that led him to suspect Patrick. Because he likes when people commit actions he deems to be scummy so he can lynch them later. Even though X made it clear that this sort of action would clash with his town reads from Patrick. Sounds like to me a good test run of an excuse to go after Patrick at a later date without having to put too much vested interest in it at this point in time. At no point in time did I see X defend the actual content of his original post whose alleged "intent" was to gauge the reaction of Patrick (e.g. it was a crap reason to go after Patrick and, knowing this, he didn't talk an iota about it).

Please note, after this failed attempt at heaping suspicion upon another player, X went into full scum-safety mode (see Point Three for more detail).


Point Two: Hypocritical Mafia Theory Argument


According to X, "Top Three's are misleading." And, in fact - they're completely useless! Because, "If you want to know what [X thinks], look at [X's] posts." All you need to do is just look at his posts and apparently his suspicions are super easy to discern! My issue with this is threefold:

1. Let's take X at his word and look back at his posts, then, shall we?
15 out of X's 25 posts prior to this claim deal with him either directly discussing or explaining his interactions with GC (who he finds to be town) or Patrick (who has given him town/null vibes). The remainder are inconsequential. To underline this point of not actually voicing suspicions, one just needs to look at X's sixth post prior to him making the "Top Threes are misleading; just look at my posts" claim: He says that nothing has caught his attention up to that point (no surprise). In his following five posts he suggests a null opinion of Yos' timing of the claim and dismissing the WIFOM of the suggestion scum wouldn't claim miller (hint: no definitive suspicions voiced). Wowzers! So where are these completely and totally obvious suspicions?

2. I'm not the only one to notice this. Incog calls him out on this very issue. X conveniently
ignores
misses it. Patrick calls him out on this very issue. X conveniently
ignores
misses it. Yos calls him out on this very issue. X side steps and gives a complete crap response that amounts to "If you are right then I am wrong. I know what you are saying is right. However, I am not wrong!" Logic defying bull.

3. My third issue is that X attacks the Top Three not in an attempt to hunt scum, or even to argue the merits of a Top Three in terms of how it might hurt/help the mafia (as Dizzy did). Nope. His argument boiled down is that he finds Top Threes to be aesthetically displeasing. After what started as criticism of a Top Three as being misleading, X finally drives home his real point: Top Threes are "misleading" because they have the potential to split up a big huge post of named suspicious players and the cause behind that suspicion into two smaller posts, one containing named suspicious players and the other containing reasoning behind that suspicion. Yes, that's right. X tried to argue that Top Threes are misleading because the composition of a hypothetical post is not in the format he likes to read.


Point Three: No Helpful Contribution


· Please find me a post that indicates who X suspects. You won't. Unless if you count the joke post 388. I don't. He's 1) said that he thinks Patrick is town and 2) hasn't said a damned thing about why he thinks OGML is suspicious.
· Please find me a post that X is actively contributing to hunting scum. You'll be hard pressed to do so - if it isn't abundantly pure talk (and no walk), it's in some gray area where he can claim he's just putting out feelers. Or attempting to gauge reactions. Or something incredibly passive so he can worm his way around this criticism.
· New Mini-Game: Try to find all the times X side-steps, shifts or blatantly ignores things that criticize or are asked of him!
· Why hasn't X been trying to "gauge reactions" of other players like he did Patrick? Apart from Patrick, there has only been his blatant role fishing from OGML that he described as an attempt to "investigate OGML's alignment." Yes, I suppose that
is
an accurate description of what he was doing: once you determine someone's role, you'll have a pretty good idea of the alignment! X got a stiff dose of reality when his (bad) Patrick attack failed miserably. The spotlight shined severely, and he felt the burn. Since then he's been keeping his head low because he - as any other scum - doesn't want needless attention on him.
· Why didn't X criticize the specific Top Three lists that were formulated by different players? Because it requires making a practical use of his bad theory argument.


Conclusion


All of these things, when added up (and feel free to just filter his posts, you'll see them in full effect), make him a vocal observer of this game. He isn't playing it, he's floating by. This is like one step above active lurking - he's constantly here, he just isn't providing any legitimate content to the thread. It's the perfect safe play by scum: Stay clear of lurker labels. Be vocal about inconsequential aspects of conversation. Ignore criticism. Above all, don't getting pinned down on any definitive point that can come to bite you in your scummy butt a day cycle or two down the road. X is a slimy scumball. He deserves votes.
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #507 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:26 pm

Post by camn »

Hm.

Vote Xdaamno
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Post Post #508 (ISO) » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:57 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Ok, I can certanly get behind an Xdaamno wagon.

(checks votecount) Um...I think there are 3 votes on him now, Camn, GC, and Korts.

Vote:Xdaamnno
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Post Post #509 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:02 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Sorry guys! I know I suck at looking town. I'll enjoy watching this game afterwards, but I regret actually joining it.

GC, I know I can come across as an asshole sometimes, but you've taken it way to far and it's hurting my enjoyment of the game. I hope I don't have to play with you again.

Vote: Xdaamno


Before somebody hammers, I want to do a long analysis. I'll start making notes.
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Post Post #510 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:04 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Xdaamno wrote:Why do I get the feeling nobody actually reads what I write?
(this sums up my general feelings - I'm pretty sure my style of argument is just not compatable with looking town in mafia anymore)
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Post Post #511 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:06 am

Post by Xdaamno »

(to clarify with GC: half of the 'asshole' part is the fact that he consistently misrepresents me - in every single one of my posts that he has paraphrased or interpreted he has missed the point entirely)
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Post Post #512 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:59 am

Post by Incognito »

Xdaamno's self-vote makes me feel even more than ever that he's likely town. I do
not
support this wagon.
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Post Post #513 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:39 am

Post by OhGodMyLife »

I echo Incognito's sentiments regarding this wagon. If we're not lynching Yos, we should be lynching charter. Yos' slimy addition to the bandwagon here is especially concerning.
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Post Post #514 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:56 am

Post by camn »

Xdaamno wrote:
Vote: Xdaamno


Before somebody hammers, I want to do a long analysis. I'll start making notes.
Don't self vote. That's just ridiculous.

Incog.. since when is self-voting a TOWN-tell?
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Post Post #515 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:27 am

Post by Incognito »

camn, I've always looked at self-voting closer to L-1 as a town-tell. To me, it indicates a sign of frustration, and I
generally
view frustration as a town-tell as well. I mainly apply this "self-voting closer to L-1" rule of thumb to Newbie players in particular but with Xdaamno's playstyle, I could certainly see myself applying it to him also.

I think self-
hammering
is generally an action that I'd think is more likely to come from scum players than town players but in my experience, I can't recall a single instance where a player who self-voted closer to L-1 happened to be a scum player. You're completely welcome to provide me with examples that display otherwise. I just think that the self-vote coupled with the info I found when looking up Xdaamno's past games leads me to believe that Xdaamno is likely town here.
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Post Post #516 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:00 am

Post by Green Crayons »

X wrote:GC, I know I can come across as an asshole sometimes, but you've taken it way to far and it's hurting my enjoyment of the game. I hope I don't have to play with you again.
... Are you serious? I'm criticizing your play, not you as coming across as an asshole. I'm saying your play has been scummy, not that you're a jerk. You're making my criticism of your play into a personal insult against your person? Really?
Incog wrote:Xdaamno's self-vote makes me feel even more than ever that he's likely town.
I disagree. I looked up previous discussion on self-voting (to see general MS thoughts on the matter) and I think this is an obvious emotional ploy, per Seol: "...the appeal to emotion self-vote which should always, always lead to lynch (ie, the correct approach to an appeal to emotion is to deny)." The fact that he's acting super wounded that I'm calling him scum (which, as a defense, makes absolutely no sense) coupled with the self-vote, he looks like a scumbag trying out a pity plea.
Incog wrote:I've always looked at self-voting closer to L-1 as a town-tell. To me, it indicates a sign of frustration, and I generally view frustration as a town-tell as well.
An incredibly recent game comes to mind about a scumbag showing really awesome frustration that looked really town and convinced the town to not lynch the guy because, in part, he was town-looking with that frustration. Being frustrated isn't a town tell by any stretch of the imagination.
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #517 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:00 am

Post by Patrick »

Xdaamno sounds genuine in his last few posts. I think as scum he'd have been more likely to try and latch onto one of the alternative wagons/suspects rather than defending them, unless he's alot more devious than I've given him credit for. I suppose he could be scum with Korts, but their sparring doesn't look fake either. I think Korts, or failing that charter, would make much better lynches today. I don't like either of Korts's votes much since returning, but especially the Izzy one. Her reasons for voting him seem fine to me and some other people have certainly given him flak for similar reasons; I'm thinking he voted her because she looked like a relatively easy target (and I don't agree with his case on her, I'm reading her as mildly town). I should add that I don't think the couple/nine argument tells us anything: whilst I don't think a couple means anything close to nine, I think Korts meant it in that way in his post 362, because two minutes later he mentions that he hasn't even read Yosarian's claim yet. I think his use of "couple" was just bad wording rather than a lie which he contradicted two minutes later.

Charter is on my scumdar mainly because I don't like his pushes on either Yosarian or Izzy. It seems like he just jumped on the Yos wagon when it was becoming popular and then came off when people starting analysing it more thoroughly and asking for reasons; and the only one I can see in his posts is some vague reference to a single past game. Some of his attacks on Izzy look like he's trying to make cautious play on her part look alot scummier than it really is, especially the last one:
charter wrote:
Izzy wrote:Yes, you can. If, that is, you're not just looking to latch onto the first thing that vaguely doesn't sit right and call scum. Scum aren't the only people who act scummy. The art is sifting between occasional lapses by townies and discerning patterns of scumminess. I don't see patterns emerging yet, just confusion emerging from narrow focus and general theory discussion that does not necessarily add to the data from which opinions can be formed.
Ok... So your plan is to just sit and do nothing until you see a connection? What day do you think this is going to happen on? Why should we let you coast through until this point?
I think it's clear that Izzy had talked about her suspicions at that point (she'd recently voted Korts, for example), so "your plan is to just sit and do nothing until you see a connection" seems overblown.

I'd support a Korts or charter lynch as things stand. Much as I hate how he's played, I don't think a Xdaamno lynch is likely to hit scum. I feel better about GC, Incognito and to a lesser extent OGML with their recent posts.

Xdaamno, why is Korts town in your eyes?
Mod
: Some of these recent votecounts are pretty innacurate, for example charter and Ether.
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Post Post #518 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:05 am

Post by Green Crayons »

camn, what are your thoughts regarding charter's play?
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #519 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:06 am

Post by Patrick »

GC wrote:An incredibly recent game comes to mind about a scumbag showing really awesome frustration that looked really town and convinced the town to not lynch the guy because, in part, he was town-looking with that frustration. Being frustrated isn't a town tell by any stretch of the imagination.
If this refers to what I think it does, I don't think there was a self vote involved. We probably shouldn't talk about it too much though.
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Post Post #520 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:08 am

Post by Green Crayons »

It is referring to what you think, there wasn't a self-vote involved, and I don't want to go into it much more than point out that "frustration" is something that can be used by anyone, irregardless of alignment.
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #521 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:27 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Green Crayons wrote:
X wrote:GC, I know I can come across as an asshole sometimes, but you've taken it way to far and it's hurting my enjoyment of the game. I hope I don't have to play with you again.
... Are you serious? I'm criticizing your play, not you as coming across as an asshole. I'm saying your play has been scummy, not that you're a jerk. You're making my criticism of your play into a personal insult against your person? Really?
Yes. Unnessecarily angry quotes:
Green Crayons wrote:His initial post was crap
Green Crayons wrote:(Did you just throw up in your mouth a little bit? Because I did.)
Dishonest quotes:
Green Crayons wrote:Patrick is making stuff up that doesn't actually interest him (I think the assumption is because scum don't get interested in things?) because
1. Patrick operates differently than X and 2. Patrick's natural phraseology is suspicious.
(Did you just throw up in your mouth a little bit? Because I did.)
Green Crayons wrote:
At no point in time did I see X defend the actual content of his original post
whose alleged "intent" was to gauge the reaction of Patrick (e.g. it was a crap reason to go after Patrick and, knowing this, he didn't talk an iota about it).
Green Crayons wrote:According to X, "Top Three's are misleading."
And, in fact - they're completely useless!
Because, "If you want to know what [X thinks], look at [X's] posts."
All you need to do is just look at his posts and apparently his suspicions are super easy to discern!
My issue with this is threefold:
Green Crayons wrote:15 out of X's 25 posts prior to this claim deal with him either directly discussing or explaining his interactions with GC (who he finds to be town) or Patrick (who has given him town/null vibes).
The remainder are inconsequential.
Green Crayons wrote:X side steps and gives a complete crap response that
amounts to "If you are right then I am wrong. I know what you are saying is right. However, I am not wrong!"
Logic defying bull.
Green Crayons wrote:
His argument boiled down is that he finds Top Threes to be aesthetically displeasing.
After what started as criticism of a Top Three as being misleading, X finally drives home his
real point: Top Threes are "misleading" because they have the potential to split up a big huge post of named suspicious players and the cause behind that suspicion into two smaller posts, one containing named suspicious players and the other containing reasoning behind that suspicion. Yes, that's right. X tried to argue that Top Threes are misleading because the composition of a hypothetical post is not in the format he likes to read.
Green Crayons wrote:Please find me a post that indicates who X suspects. You won't. Unless if you count the joke post 388. I don't.
He's 1) said that he thinks Patrick is town and 2) hasn't said a damned thing about why he thinks OGML is suspicious.
Green Crayons wrote:
X got a stiff dose of reality when his (bad) Patrick attack failed miserably.
The spotlight shined severely, and he felt the burn. Since then he's been keeping his head low because he - as any other scum - doesn't want needless attention on him.
Green Crayons wrote:
Why didn't X criticize the specific Top Three lists that were formulated by different players? Because it requires making a practical use of his bad theory argument.
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Post Post #522 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:29 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Oh, wait, let me clarify. You said:
Green Crayons wrote:You're making my criticism of your play into a personal insult against your person?
That's just the repeated use of the word 'crap' and 'throw up in your mouth'. The rest is not a, quote "personal insult against my person", but instead amounts to you hurting the town by being dishonest because you're too much of an asshole to engage in a fair argument.
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Post Post #523 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:30 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Pre-emptive: The reason I think it is OK for me to insult you is because I feel the insult is deserved, as opposed to you being an asshole while attempting to show why I am scum.
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Post Post #524 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:55 am

Post by Incognito »

Post 516, Green Crayons wrote:I disagree. I looked up previous discussion on self-voting (to see general MS thoughts on the matter) and I think this is an obvious emotional ploy, per Seol: "...the appeal to emotion self-vote which should always, always lead to lynch (ie, the correct approach to an appeal to emotion is to deny)." The fact that he's acting super wounded that I'm calling him scum (which, as a defense, makes absolutely no sense) coupled with the self-vote, he looks like a scumbag trying out a pity plea.
Well then I'd feel really bad for poor alphachick, poor Iceforge, poor lordofthelefthand, poor Xtoxm (sorry Xtoxm x_x), poor krazyness, and even poor Incognito (yeah, I was still learning the ropes to this game, heh) if we ever ended up in a game with Seol. We'd have all been toast, and we'd have all been dead, decaying townies.
Post 516, Green Crayons wrote:An incredibly recent game comes to mind about a scumbag showing really awesome frustration that looked really town and convinced the town to not lynch the guy because, in part, he was town-looking with that frustration. Being frustrated isn't a town tell by any stretch of the imagination.
:!:

If you're talking about the game I telepathically,
psychically
predict you're talking about, I'd love to make comment here but...

@Xdaamno:
no matter what happens, I think you owe it to everyone to produce that long analysis you mentioned above. A number of us have been asking for
something
of that sort for quite some time now.
[ooc][color=black]patrickgower2006 (8:12:03 PM): all beer tastes same to me
patrickgower2006 (8:12:07 PM): like dish water
If you see Patrick drinking dish water, please try and stop him. Friends don't let friends drink dish water.[/color][/ooc]

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