Mini 757 - South Park Mafia (Game Over)

[Spolium]

My point wasn't that it was an unreasonable argument because it was perfectly reasonable. My points were that is was incorrect and that it failed to meet a higher burden of proof than mere possibility.

Pointing out that a reasonable point is invalid because "it's incorrect" is entirely redundant. Scum can take that stance just as easily as town. When it comes down to it, this counter-argument amounts to "prove it" - well, if anything in mafia could be proven so easily, we'd hit mafia every time.

And I continue to get in trouble for asking questions. Empking said that you can't know other people's intents and thus all you have are actions, the logical follow-up is to learn if he considers intentions at all so I can better tailor any arguments presented to or about Empking.

When one analyses actions, they are seeking true intent. That's the whole point of focusing on actions and behaviour.

You said to Empking:

You're telling me you never try to understand someone's intent? That you never explore people's possible motivations for their actions?

You seem like an insightful chap, so this seems more like a deliberate attempt at misrepresenting Empking's argument and drag the conversation around in circles than a request for clarification.

- DDD's #411 is the best point he's made in his defence, but it seems to be too little, too late, and in itself puts a dent in my view that he was not primarily concerned with getting himself out of trouble, as does this:

Wait, what? I think I spent the last two pages or so solely talking about myself and defending myself, but I'm "not primarily concerned with getting himself out of trouble"?

I meant this within the context of #362, where I indicated why I felt that you seemed town enough to swap my vote off you (essentially, due to good cases you presented on others). Since then, your arguments/defence have been a great deal weaker, more like you're grasping at straws than anything else.

B) Are you actually suggesting that the game started with four scum or did you just forget that Eso was scum when you suggested we were in LYLO now.

I completely overlooked this. Given that the possibility of LYLO was a primary factor in my vote, I will

UNVOTE

for now.

I will investigate your meta when I get the chance.

---

The case you are pushing against DDD makes me wary, Spolium.

Noted.

[Spolium]

TIM MAMAHGAMAMAIMSAKMSIAMSIMASianuyhbwrgbu3w4btu34wt

Timmh.

[Wall-E]

DDD, you don't need to defend lurker lynching. I would never factor a person's policies into a vote on them. Spolium made a good point about what you said to Emp, however.

The argument between the two of you is serving only to prove DDD's meta and give Spolium more opportunities to rack up obvtown points, imho.

[caf19]

The argument between the two of you is serving only to prove DDD's meta and give Spolium more opportunities to rack up obvtown points, imho.

Obvtown points? Last I remember, you were accusing Spolium. So... who do you suspect, and why?

[Wall-E]

A bull-ring is the ring in the nose of a bull that's used to control the bull.

I'm always wary when a townie starts to look like a bull-ring. Until I get over my suspicion of him I'm afraid I won't be much use for hunting anyone else but Spolium. If I do get over it you'll know because I'll start talking about someone else obsessively.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Pointing out that a reasonable point is invalid because "it's incorrect" is entirely redundant. Scum can take that stance just as easily as town. When it comes down to it, this counter-argument amounts to "prove it" - well, if anything in mafia could be proven so easily, we'd hit mafia every time.

I've asked him to establish that my actions are not just possibly those of scum because any compotent player can do that (see my faux-case on caf for an example), I'm asking him to establish that they are the likely actions of scum.

When one analyses actions, they are seeking true intent. That's the whole point of focusing on actions and behaviour.

You said to Empking:

You're telling me you never try to understand someone's intent? That you never explore people's possible motivations for their actions?

You seem like an insightful chap, so this seems more like a deliberate attempt at misrepresenting Empking's argument and drag the conversation around in circles than a request for clarification.

And if the questioning had been about you or caf or most other players it would've gone in completely different directions and that question would've likely been unneccesary. However, with Empking I'm not sure what goes on beyond the one line posts and since he doesn't spell out anything more than exactly what you ask, sometimes it's neccesary to ask the smallest things so you don't make a fault assumption.

I meant this within the context of #362, where I indicated why I felt that you seemed town enough to swap my vote off you (essentially, due to good cases you presented on others). Since then, your arguments/defence have been a great deal weaker, more like you're grasping at straws than anything else.

I see, unfortunately for me the two players that I found most likely to be scum were both modkilled and half the town has stopped posting and the other half seems most interested in me, so I don't exactly see many good options other than to answer the points brought against me and see if that leads to any interesting points. I wish I could be more aggressive and put forth arguments against other people, but I'm not going put forth arguments I don't believe or support just to appear that way.

[charter]

Cartman: Screw you guys. I am going home.

Vote Count

Debonair Danny DiPietro - 1 (Empking)
ZazieR - 1 (Debonair Danny DiPietro

Not Voting (6)

Spolium
Wall-E
ZazieR
GhostWriter
caf19
RestFermata


With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!
Deadline is April 26th at midnight EST.

[ZazieR]

Will read this whole game now, and post analysis of each 5 posts.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP: Will read this whole game now, and post analysis of each 5

pages

.

[ZazieR]

Post 28, bussing attempt is noted.

God help the town if Spolium is Mafia.

Like I said, deja vu.

As most of the 5 pages were about Dejkha, I can't say much. Dejkha's case was strong and justified.
Nonny looks good, Spolium did first, but now that Eso has turned up scum

IGMEOY

There's one more thing that caught my attention in one of the posts which may be important in one of the later pages.

[Spolium]

Bussing attempt? Maybe you should take a good long look at the reasoning for that vote.

Timmaaargh Timmy Timblarragh TIMMY

[Wall-E]

wat's up town

zazie's analysis sure was short

how about that spolium? what do you guys think about his leadership in this game thus-far?

[ZazieR]

Bussing attempt? Maybe you should take a good long look at the reasoning for that vote.

Timmaaargh Timmy Timblarragh TIMMY

Yeah, what about it?

[ZazieR]

wat's up town

zazie's analysis sure was short

how about that spolium? what do you guys think about his leadership in this game thus-far?

I'm not done yet. That were only the first 5 pages.

[Wall-E]

i am well aware

[ZazieR]

Due to post 224, I'll have to look more at DDD.
Spolium, what did you think of post 224? Was it scummy or not, and why?


And Wall-E, be more patient. The most things were about Dejkha, which isn't really helpful at this time.

[caf19]

how about that spolium? what do you guys think about his leadership in this game thus-far?

I'm not sure I agree that being the 'leader' of the discussion necessarily indicates scumminess. Yes, Spolium was the most vocal aggressor against dejkha, but dej did do some pretty scummy stuff - it wasn't uncalled for. What do you think about Spolium's change of character D2, when his first two votes (for DDD and nico) were following votes and had 'I agree with X' messages attached to them?

Also, if you do suspect him, why did you say he was picking up obvtown points?

[ZazieR]

As for targets I like the arguments put forward by Spolium about his target. I’ve got further suspicions about Spolium at this point, he tunneled pretty hard on dej which always raises my eyebrows and he seems to forget his post restriction at a rate that suggests to me he isn’t afraid of being modkilled because of it which then suggests to me that his post restriction isn’t authentic, but those are minor things compared to the arguments presented against RBT.

^^noted

As it stands however, I believe RBT is the best choice today; she’s provided next to no content other than agreeing when it’s easy and convenient to do so; making it obvious she’s still around but simply and willfully not participating. Also, if we assume her post restriction is authentic then her lynch would be helpful in at very least eliminating how the town is broken up between scum and town.

I don't follow the part about RBT's PR. Could you rephrase? Now that RBT was lynched, could you tell if what you wrote above did help?

You explained this later. I do think it's a weak reason for lynching RBT.

Dej, was there any hint that your death would be significantly different flavour-wise, when triggered by your ability?

Very innocent question at first sight, but in the end it's not. Can you tell me why town-Spolium would have liked to know the answer to this?
The same goes for DDD: Why would town-DDD would have liked to know the answer to this?
(I know Spolium gave an answer, however I'd like to know from him why it matters to a town player if scum did or did not perform a kill.)

If RBT doesn't reply satisfactorily within 24 hours, my vote's going on her.

Noted. I don't trust it when somebody makes a case, and doesn't vote. It gives me the impression that sombody is power role fishing.

Post 327: I want to hear why what DDD was pointing out in this post was scummy from Empking and Spolium.

I disagree with post 343.

Yes, I'm blaming the deadline for the lynch to a large degree. I came into the game four days before deadline, Dej was just at L-1 and all the suspicion quickly flowed from him to RBT after Dej's claim and by the time that bandwagon had reached critical mass there was basically no time left to find another target even if we wanted to. So at that point it became an issue of lynching RBT vs. no lynch, where the lynch of RBT was better, but wasn't the best option.

This combined with DDD's second post, screams scum to me.

The next damning thing is how Spolium asked someone who they felt was most town on dej's wagon. What. The. Flipping. Banana.

HUH??? Where?


Also, after having looked at these pages, I suggest a name-claim.

[ZazieR]

@DDD - analysis on Empking, plz

@Ghostwriter - analysis on DDD, plz

@caf19 - analysis on Ghostwriter, plz

@Empking - analysis on caf19, plz

What The *Beeb*?! What's the point of this?

I really couldn't follow the Emp-DDD discussion at page 16

Seriously? You think I'm scum (or at least that it's a good argument) because I was exploring what I thought was a possible contradiction/pressuring a fellow player? I could see that argument having some validity if I had pushed for Empking's lynch or tried to railroad him in the process, but that's simply not the case here.

I'm in the mood for some circular logic here Here it comes:
Because you can see the validity in the argument only if you had pushed an Empking lynch, you decided not to do it in order to avoid suspicion.

Vote: ZazieR

She has posts since her last post in here so it's not that she simply hasn't been around, it's that she's chosen to not involve herself further in the game. If we the town don't create a disincentive for this sort of behavior then we implicitly condone it.

Yeah, use the difficult words on the Dutch girl
I don't like to read many pages when I'm busy with other stuff. The mod knows about this, and the co-mod especially.
What's your point actually with this vote?

Look at it from my perspective Spolium, if the day continues on as it has then I get inevitably lynched because I'm apparently the only serious candidate today, except I know I'm pro-town, so if I don't do something to get the game moving then all those bad things about being in LYLO, well they happen anyways.

So, you're just gonna vote a player who hasn't been posting. In other words, you're doing the same you criticised Eso for. Noted.

what do you guys think about his leadership in this game thus-far?

He was only a 'leader' day 1. His switch to agree with other players during day 2, is suspicious though.

Anyway, I'll wait with my vote till I've heard the responses to my posts.
Also, think about my name claim suggestion and add reasons why you want to have one or not. I'll explain later if needed why it's a good thing, but I rather don't want to explain it.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP

As it stands however, I believe RBT is the best choice today; she’s provided next to no content other than agreeing when it’s easy and convenient to do so; making it obvious she’s still around but simply and willfully not participating. Also, if we assume her post restriction is authentic then her lynch would be helpful in at very least eliminating how the town is broken up between scum and town.

I don't follow the part about RBT's PR. Could you rephrase? Now that RBT was lynched, could you tell if what you wrote above did help?

You explained this later. I do think it's a weak reason for lynching RBT.

Had the wrong name at quote tags

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

As it stands however, I believe RBT is the best choice today; she’s provided next to no content other than agreeing when it’s easy and convenient to do so; making it obvious she’s still around but simply and willfully not participating. Also, if we assume her post restriction is authentic then her lynch would be helpful in at very least eliminating how the town is broken up between scum and town.

You explained this later. I do think it's a weak reason for lynching RBT.

If you actually believed that then why didn't you step in and either present another candidate for lynch or push the idea of a no lynch instead of just sitting back and letting it happen?

Dej, was there any hint that your death would be significantly different flavour-wise, when triggered by your ability?

Very innocent question at first sight, but in the end it's not. Can you tell me why town-Spolium would have liked to know the answer to this?
The same goes for DDD: Why would town-DDD would have liked to know the answer to this?
(I know Spolium gave an answer, however I'd like to know from him why it matters to a town player if scum did or did not perform a kill.)

Because the more information we have the better off we are, it's a very simple principle. Even things we don't think are terribly important might hold the key to figuring everything out.

Yes, I'm blaming the deadline for the lynch to a large degree. I came into the game four days before deadline, Dej was just at L-1 and all the suspicion quickly flowed from him to RBT after Dej's claim and by the time that bandwagon had reached critical mass there was basically no time left to find another target even if we wanted to. So at that point it became an issue of lynching RBT vs. no lynch, where the lynch of RBT was better, but wasn't the best option.

This combined with DDD's second post, screams scum to me.

If you actually believed that then why didn't you step in and either present another candidate for lynch or push the idea of a no lynch instead of just sitting back and letting it happen?

Seriously? You think I'm scum (or at least that it's a good argument) because I was exploring what I thought was a possible contradiction/pressuring a fellow player? I could see that argument having some validity if I had pushed for Empking's lynch or tried to railroad him in the process, but that's simply not the case here.

I'm in the mood for some circular logic here Here it comes:
Because you can see the validity in the argument only if you had pushed an Empking lynch, you decided not to do it in order to avoid suspicion.

Fail. Doesn't take into account that I had thought there was a real contradiction there, hence I thought the point was relevant to my mind.

To support this continuing hilarity you'd have to believe that I...
Read RBT's role claim and willingly chose to ignore it.
Then breadcrumbed this fact.
Then presented an argument that I would know had no validity against Empking, but intentionally didn't push too hard to leave myself a WIFOM backdoor.
Then admitted to my point being wrong bringing major suspicion from everyone else in the game.

So you have to assume I'm both a genius setting up backdoor after backdoor to wiggle out of this scenario, but that I'm an idiot who wouldn't have considered the most obvious ramifications of posting an indisputably incorrect argument.

Vote: ZazieR

She has posts since her last post in here so it's not that she simply hasn't been around, it's that she's chosen to not involve herself further in the game. If we the town don't create a disincentive for this sort of behavior then we implicitly condone it.

Yeah, use the difficult words on the Dutch girl
I don't like to read many pages when I'm busy with other stuff. The mod knows about this, and the co-mod especially.
What's your point actually with this vote?

I'm sorry that I interrupted your laziness. My point was to do exactly what it did, to give you a reason to step back into the game and actually participate.

Look at it from my perspective Spolium, if the day continues on as it has then I get inevitably lynched because I'm apparently the only serious candidate today, except I know I'm pro-town, so if I don't do something to get the game moving then all those bad things about being in LYLO, well they happen anyways.

So, you're just gonna vote a player who hasn't been posting. In other words, you're doing the same you criticised Eso for. Noted.

FuzzyLightning hadn't posted anywhere for five days after his first post in this game. He clearly had gone missing from the site as a whole at that point, thus voting for him was stupid since what he actually needed a prod/replacement. You on the other hand had been participating in other games since your last post, you were just choosing to ignore this one and such behavior is not helpful to the town at all.

[caf19]

Also, think about my name claim suggestion and add reasons why you want to have one or not. I'll explain later if needed why it's a good thing, but I rather don't want to explain it.

I don't see the benefits for town in it. The one scum character that has flipped so far was a member of the fourth grade; if we all nameclaim I doubt we would be able to tell the scum-fourthgraders apart from the town ones.

[Spolium]

Tim. Tim, TIMMY Tahaaarh! Timmabajroajaoaaimmmy

It seems like the general consensus is that I played a much more signficiant role D1 than I have so far on D2, and I would like to address the contrast between the two before speculation gets out of hand. When I started this game I made a point of being aggressive and active, but I've had less time to give to most of my current games due to being busier than usual. I've got more time for the forums now so I aim to improve my contribution substantially.

Timmyyyyy.

---

Yeah, what about it?

I accused him of trying to distract the town with

a joke

he made about scientology on the

first page

.

Needless to say, my vote was also a joke.

Spolium, what did you think of post 224? Was it scummy or not, and why?

At the time I didn't consider it very scummy. Looking back at that is sort of frustrating, because I should really have seen through the "If you're the mafia, I feel for us" rhetoric. His sudden turn to "maybe dej is a false positive", in context to his further comment about it in #232 should have rung alarm bells too.

Very innocent question at first sight, but in the end it's not. Can you tell me why town-Spolium would have liked to know the answer to this?
The same goes for DDD: Why would town-DDD would have liked to know the answer to this?
(I know Spolium gave an answer, however I'd like to know from him why it matters to a town player if scum did or did not perform a kill.)

Basically I was trying to guage to what extent flavour and ability are linked. The idea was that this knowledge - along with other information picked up during N1/D2 could help us decide whether some sort of claim would actually be worthwhile. Of course, the answer didn't allow us to reflect upon anything so I moved on.

If RBT doesn't reply satisfactorily within 24 hours, my vote's going on her.

Noted. I don't trust it when somebody makes a case, and doesn't vote. It gives me the impression that sombody is power role fishing.

It was some 3 days until deadline, a new candidate for a lynch had to be found in the wake of Dej's claim (when there were no other major candidates), RBT was acting suspiciously and not putting much effort into defending herself. I gave her a reasonable amount of time in which to do so, then placed my vote as per the ultimatum.

How exactly was a "power role fishing" in this case?

The next damning thing is how Spolium asked someone who they felt was most town on dej's wagon. What. The. Flipping. Banana.

HUH??? Where?

HERE.

Also, after having looked at these pages, I suggest a name-claim.

What we know so far is there is a mafia team called the "Sixth Grade Wannabes" and that Tweek was one of them. Tweek is normally a fairly "innocent" character and suffers a great deal due to his caffeine-induced skittishness and a lack of courtesy from his peers, so the earlier assessment that charter wouldn't assign obvious "bad" characters as mafia due to roles not being clear cut was, evidently, correct.

The only possible benefit of name-claiming that I can see is that the scum characters could conceivably all be children ("sixth grade wannabes" doesn't lend itself well to adult characters), which could

potentially

narrow down the list. I don't favour this because there's no guaruntee that there are any adults left, or that they represent a large enough chunk of the town to make the move worthwhile.

On the flipside, however, we also know that roles and flavour are matched to an extent (i.e. Kenny died, Kyle is fairly smart and has helped with a high profile investigation in the series, Mr. Mackey ended up being weak doc which I had previously suggested was a possibility in terms of role allocation). I would imagine scum have much more to gain from a nameclaim than town would right now, so

FoS Zazier

What The *Beeb*?! What's the point of this?

- Determining what certain players thought of other players (duh)
- Hopefully spurring players to have a closer look at someone they may have overlooked
- Now you know
- And knowing is half the battle
- GI JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOE

Ti-hah hah TIMMYYY! Harrgh, rabadaaah? Jiimeh? TIMMEH! Rah, rah, rah squaaarghl. Ofbefgwrjng TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY TIMRMMY RIMY REiMT sfgnjg sod it TMMEH

[Wall-E]

sod it

[Wall-E]

Spolium: Do you disagree with my callout on you about telling the town who is town?