Mini 776: End of the World Zombie Survivors Mafia: Abandoned

[Diamondilium]

I apologize for not posting in this game sooner. In two other ongoing games I said I was going to be away for the weekend, and then for this game I screwed up and assumed that it was in Little Italy as I didn't realize that Coney Island used "mini" naming conventions too. I would've thought that it was titled slightly differently. Anyways, I'm here now.

As to the giving of the gun, I personally find it disconcerting. Particularly the end of the voting. OGBall's lack of really stating anything as his opinion towards why you (SOGuy) should get the gun in particular makes me wary. It seems like he just wanted to appear pro-town (agreeing with a large number of townies) without actually giving any opinion on the matter. Rishi just finishing off "the inevitable" is a point against him as well in my book. Nothing is "inevitable" until a majority agrees. Certainly it is inevitable after giving it to you, but to just hop on at the end and saying (in my eyes) "this will stifle discussion that was rather productive" is interesting.

For the L-1 gunning, I don't know if that's the right way to go. I feel that it will just make it easier for scum to pressure somebody and get a role-claim out of them, and if it's a worthless claim in their eyes they can abandon it or reduce their heavy opponents (referring to anti-scum power roles). As Semi has the gun now, I'm thinking that he should go after somebody who he thinks is scum and then force him to account for his actions and reasoning after it is done. That way we can also decide if it was truly a pro-town kill, or if there was something shady to do.

In other words: It seems like it'll add another deadline. I've seen several of the newbie games just go down the crapper because of deadlines and forced action due to not allowing the town to fully explore all the possibilities in depth, and auto-vigging the L-1 seems to make that into another deadline while we already have one that we have to worry about.

Also, hi to Gateway, musher, and Shinnen, and then the rest of you.

You mentioned both DGB, and Rishi and points against them, but you don't vote. Why?

vote hero. Let's not try to outguess the mod or add confusing restrictions on voting that will make an already short timeframe even shorter.

Outguessing the mod, confusing restriction, shorter time frame? How does it do any of those? I personally find it to be an effective way around the self-hammer factor.

[Gateway]

vote hero

. Let's not try to outguess the mod or add confusing restrictions on voting that will make an already short timeframe even shorter.

Was this like your version of day one random voting, because we are on a deadline now. We should skip the random voting phase.

Going to take the dog for a walk and then present a broad case as I see things from my eyes currently.

[Gateway]

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Amished

I have no read on you yet, I have made the same mistake playing three games as once so I can understand lack of a L/A post. I will agree with your L-1 concerns, but it is a risk I am willing to take if it gets rid of the gun. Also SOG seems adept enough to not use the gun if it seems like a bandwagon forced the L-1 without thought. Also see my last statement in this post concerning this as well.

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Diamondiliuml

I came at you hard in the beginning, but not because I had any scummy feelings for you. Your later posts showed a general concern about the town using the gun properly as well. In post 88 you seemed to really be bringing the town around a plan to watch for possible scum set-ups, but you didn't originally bring it up. As it stands right now I feel Diamond is leaning more towards townie.

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Rishi

A few short posts clearing up how the gun works day one, and aknowledgement of the plan to use the gun day one. You are patricipating in conversations, but I don't feel you've added anything really. No solid opinion on Rishi yet.

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Shinnen_no_Me

Except for a quick hello, nothing else. If they are gone then there is nothing we can do, if the mod's prod shows they have just been lurking though, SNM is probably highest on my suspicious list so far.

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Herodotus

Came up with the pseudo vote idea, making me feel they wanted to add a new tool to prevent scum hammering or pressuring role claims. Townie vibe so far

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evilevilmatt

Sort of a scummy vibe off you but I cannot explain why. The facts as I see them is mostly you trying to get semi the gun just as I was. I know my intentions, I have to be a little suspicious of you though. I will be watching you to make my decision more clear over the next couple of days

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Gateway

Obviously an awesome townie.

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kabenon007

If you are not away, your quick post and lurking don't shine you in a good light to me.

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Musher333

You have been clear about your thoughts and added posts with content to help out, good townie vibe from this guy.

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Lowell

Less bickering really? Any townie would be wishing there was more bickering so we can find some tells and find the scum. And then with a deadline ahead of us you vote on someone for asking the mod a question? That is your scummy tell for him... Sorry but you are high on my ladder of scum. I will represent that by tagging my vote on you at the end of this post.

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OozingGolfBal

A little confusion in the begining, so your posts were mostly just setting your frame of thought. Later posts showed a want to place power in the town. Feeling neutral on you.

I will not make any opinions on SOG right now as I have to accept the dice roll I made when choosing him for the gun day one, and will not focus more attention where it is wasted right now.


-Make sure everyone takes into consideration semioldguy's statement in post 40 (if someone could show me how to turn the "post 40" into a link it will keep my notes easier to reference.

Very Important!!!!
Since we are basically lynching a person with one less vote today (if all goes smoothely) Everyone should have to explain their vote clearly, even if they only type "Vote: suckah... bandwagon" We can not have empty votes out there right now.

Vote: Lowell

Thoughts?

[semioldguy]

Rishi just finishing off "the inevitable" is a point against him as well in my book. Nothing is "inevitable" until a majority agrees. Certainly it is inevitable after giving it to you, but to just hop on at the end and saying (in my eyes) "this will stifle discussion that was rather productive" is interesting.

I don't necessarily see this as a point against Rishi. This is more true if Rishi thought that I would gunvote myself once there were six others on board. I don't think gun discussion was being particularly productive at that point and by ending the gun vote and getting to the lynch segment of our day it would get us to what I think would be more productive discussion. I might put a point against Rishi for something else though. In ending the gun phase I am wondering why he didn't have a contribution to the next part of our day knowing that we would be going into it and that he was the one taking us there.

Also I see a lot of parroting from Gateway so far and not a lot of original thought. I'll be looking at his next post to see what he has to say.

[semioldguy]

EBWOP: Didn't see Gateway's post 102 before my previous post. I don't agree with all of his reads so far, but it's good to see him giving them.

[Gateway]

These are my thoughts as they stand so far. I understand I have a lot of experience to gain before I know what are useless tells, so any opinions or criticism of my points would be appreciated.

Showing me how to turn a word into a link would still be appreciated as well.

[semioldguy]

@Gateway

If I wanted to link to my Post 98 I would type in the following:

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[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?userposts=&t=11252&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=98]Post 98[/url]

And that would become:

Post 98

You take the number at the end of the link "start=__" and put in the number of the post you want to link to and the link will go start a thread page with that post number. To make the link appear as your own text (i.e. "Post 98" instead of showing up as the whole link) you type whatever you want between the URL tags and put the actual link in with the opening URL tag along with an equal sign as show above. Hope this helps. I am between classes and will provide some cross analysis after I get home from class and work.

[OozingGolfBall]

Actually, I think a more foolproof gun plan would be gunning someone at L-2. Pseudovotes get hard to keep track of, and screw up the town near deadlines.

[Herodotus]

As Semi has the gun now, I'm thinking that he should go after somebody who he thinks is scum and then force him to account for his actions and reasoning after it is done. That way we can also decide if it was truly a pro-town kill, or if there was something shady to do.

This looks vaguely like setting up a lynch. It goes without saying that if he shoots someone whom everyone else agrees seems town-sided, and the person wasn't scum, he'll face suspicion. I hope that if you're town-sided, you don't intend to argue that if he shoots a townie, then he must be scum. If you're scum, though, then please make that argument.

@Lowell: I don't understand what you mean about outguessing the mod, but I don't think that pseudovotes are confusing or restrictive (it's a self-imposed restriction, anyways.) Simply don't place an L-1 vote, but instead indicate that you would support the person being lynched or vigged. Also, as placing an L-1 vote could cause trouble (as SOG explained,) pseudovoting may extend our time instead of shortening it, as compared to putting someone at L-1 or hammering.

@OGB: They don't need to be formal; the real point is that once someone is at L-2, people stop voting for them, and instead give a clear indication that they support the death of that player. We don't even really need to "keep track of them" at the time; but we should consider them as nearly equivalent to votes later when analyzing wagons.

So SOG will be making his own decisions. But no one should put another player at L-1 without first allowing SOG the opportunity to decide on his kill.

@EEM: please explain post 81.

[Amished]

@Diamond: One point, and admittedly only a very weak one that could go either way isn't enough for me to put my vote on somebody.

@gateway: By the time gorkat gave Diamond the gun through randomness, I was already V/LA so I couldn't have posted here if I wanted to. I would also hope that you don't have a good read on me through 1 post... If you could, I'd call shenanigans and be highly suspicious of you.

@OGBall: I think that's a terrible idea. I'm of the same opinion as SOG, where he should decide when/where and have him explain his reasoning, probably during the shoot so we get his analysis before there's a role-reveal. Auto-gunning anybody based on one condition, especially L-2 I think would be rather easy for scum to manipulate that.

@Hero: You misunderstood me. If his reasons for a vig are solid (and like I said earlier) are made before a role reveal I think that would be best for the rest of the town too. If the reasons are weak, no matter the role we can attack him for it. This way, if SOG is scum he could target a scumbuddy for weaker reasons, and we might be able to catch him on it, or if he's town but has good reasons, even if the target is town, I'll most likely be able to see where he's coming from, and hopefully everyone else will see it as well.

[kabenon007]

Sorry, all. I'm in the middle of test week, hit me like a bag of bricks... I'm trying to read to catch up. Hopefully I'll be able to put up a contentful post tomorrow.

[Rishi]

If I thought that SOG could not be trusted with the gun, then believe me, I would not have gun-hammered, but his posts make sense and I don't think he would use it irresponsibly. I know that we had five more days - but if SOG was likely going to end up with the gun (I'm sure someone else would have voted for him), then why delay? I don't think discussion was being especially productive at that point. As for the fact that I was "killing discussion," I think that argument only works with an actual hammer - one that ends the day.

I agree we shouldn't direct SOG too much about how to use the gun, with the caveat that he should use it on Day 1 for reasons already discussed. It's like directing a claimed power role - too easy for scum to manipulate and it means that SOG would have no responsibility for his actions.

@Diamond - No one is voting except for Lowell (well, Gateway is voting now but wasn't when you made your post), so why single out Amished for not voting?

[semioldguy]

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evilevilmatt

Sort of a scummy vibe off you but I cannot explain why. The facts as I see them is mostly you trying to get semi the gun just as I was. I know my intentions, I have to be a little suspicious of you though. I will be watching you to make my decision more clear over the next couple of days

I don't follow this. He made his intentions clear before anyone else did in his reasons for wanting the gun to go to me.

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Gateway

Obviously an awesome townie.

I never really like when people include themselves in their own analysis. May just be personal opinion.

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Musher333

You have been clear about your thoughts and added posts with content to help out, good townie vibe from this guy.

I disagree with this. Musher hasn't added much content or brought anything to the table. I don't get a scummy vibe, but not enough from Musher333 to get a townie read at all.

The rest I either agree with or didn't find necessary to comment on at this time. My feeling about you are currently mixed.

[Lowell]

@gateway- my vote wasn't random. I don't like the way hero wants us to set up a needlessly confusing kill mechanism that will (frankly) only encourage people to pay less attention. We dont' have that long to make a decision, and NO ONE is voting. hero is being anti-town by delaying the process of trying to get someone lynched.

[gorckat]

Lynch Count 2

Herodotus (1):

Lowell

Lowell (1):

Gateway

Not voting (10):

Amished, Diamondilium, evilevilmatt, Herodotus, kabenon007, Musher333, OozingGolfBall, Rishi, semioldguy, Shinnen_no_Me

Deadline to lynch: Saturday, May 9th, 8 am US east coast time

[Herodotus]

@Lowell:
Suppose that you wanted a particular player dead, that player was at L-2, SOG hadn't used the gun yet, and we weren't close to deadline.
Would you more likely (a) vote that player right away, or (b) say "I believe player X should die. Either do it, or tell us you aren't going to, Semioldguy," and then place your vote if SOG refused?
Please answer ASAP.

[Lowell]

Honestly? My opinion is "who cares", a lynch is a lynch.

I do know that we're on page 5 and only two people have voted. So, you know, maybe this doesn't matter yet.

[semioldguy]

I think that was a loaded question by Herodotus. Neither (a) or (b) is necessarily the best answer. I don't like pseudo voting. Just use FoS if you don't feel it's safe to put the real vote on. That's what is done in lylo situations before confirming votes so that scum can't just hop on the first wrong vote and win or situations where you are unable to place a vote for whatever reasons.

[Diamondilium]

@Diamond - No one is voting except for Lowell (well, Gateway is voting now but wasn't when you made your post), so why single out Amished for not voting?

It seemed to me that he was either took careful consideration with his votes, or not (meaning he had not voted for ulterior reasons). His response indicated that he is somewhat cautious with his votes, but I am checking up on his completed games to see if that's true.

@gateway- my vote wasn't random. I don't like the way hero wants us to set up a needlessly confusing kill mechanism that will (frankly) only encourage people to pay less attention. We dont' have that long to make a decision, and NO ONE is voting. hero is being anti-town by delaying the process of trying to get someone lynched.

That is just poor logic; waiting to last minute to solve the self-hammer problem isn't going to yield a town consensus as quickly as solving the problem now simply because people will be more preoccupied with scum hunting later. And, this doesn't delay "someone getting lynched" since we are going to have to deal with it eventually anyway. This explanation for your vote while not paticularly logical does make me think that you genuinely believe in your vote.

[OozingGolfBall]

Honestly? My opinion is "who cares", a lynch is a lynch.

I do know that we're on page 5 and only two people have voted. So, you know, maybe this doesn't matter yet.

This is a blatant exaggeration of the game state. Three of those pages were gun discussing, which means we've essentially at the beginning of the actual game.

[Diamondilium]

Honestly? My opinion is "who cares", a lynch is a lynch.

I do know that we're on page 5 and only two people have voted. So, you know, maybe this doesn't matter yet.

This is a blatant exaggeration of the game state. Three of those pages were gun discussing, which means we've essentially at the beginning of the actual game.

I think Lowell was trying to say that we are still technically very early in the game.

[Gateway]

@ Lowell, I did not want you thinking I dodged your response. Diamond said it much more clearly then I could inPost 118

Solving the issue now prevents distraction when we are scum hunting and about to lynch someone. Not that it matters, I believe we are past that point and people will be psuedoing or f.o.s.ing if we get near a lynch.

[Herodotus]

I think that was a loaded question by Herodotus. Neither (a) or (b) is necessarily the best answer.

I think you mean "false dilemma" rather than "loaded question." Those are probably not be the only possibilities, though my phrasing could be taken to suggest that they are. TBH, I can't think of any more sensible options under those conditions, but if anyone has any, they should share. I just wanted to see Lowell's response first.

At this point, I don't know how to interpret Lowell's answer in 116. "Who cares, a lynch is a lynch" is such a

stereotypically

scummy thing to say, I would normally think it was WIFOM written by scum or a jester. However in the context of the question I was asking, it may have been intended either as meaning the answer I called (a), or offering some third option. I wish he'd been more clear, but it's a little late for that now since later answers are less useful than first responses.

But to review, he originally non-random voted me over a suggestion that would help prevent us from losing the chance to use the gun kill constructively, and used absolutely horrible logic in doing so. (It's too confusing? Then what are you doing playing mafia? Do you vote first thing in LYLO because it's too confusing to remember not to?) Then in post 113, he has ignored my post 108, and maybe even insinuates that it's my fault that no one is voting* -- even though my suggestion only applies after a player has 5 votes on them. This made me think he might be scum.

* I'm not sure whether that was his intent, but the more I analyze post 113, the more it seems to be the case.

I generally try to avoid placing OMGUS votes in case I'm subconsciously biased, but Lowell looks scummy.

Vote: Lowell

I don't like pseudo voting. Just use FoS if you don't feel it's safe to put the real vote on.

If people do that, it means that their FoS is effectively a pseudovote by another name. The reason I suggested using a different term was so that people would have to be more definite about their support of the lynch/vig. It avoids letting the scum backtrack with "it was only minor suspicion," as "pseudovote" (or whatever similar term people used) means "I would vote/hammer except that doing so could be tactically bad for the town."

[evilevilmatt]

@EEM: please explain post 81.

Was in referance to semioldguy's post 80. Its like saying I suppost breathing. I found it amusing.

[Rishi]

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Gateway

Obviously an awesome townie.

I never really like when people include themselves in their own analysis. May just be personal opinion.

It was kind of funny. Lighten up. So, are you saying that it's scummy or just that you don't like it?

This is a blatant exaggeration of the game state. Three of those pages were gun discussing, which means we've essentially at the beginning of the actual game.

QFT. And I think one of the main reasons no one is voting is that we all decided to skip the random voting stage - perhaps because the gun discussion generated some actual content to get the game going.