Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[Seraphim]

You're right...it can't hurt.

However, that doesn't make it any more useless. We already know the scum will probably be able to lie. It seems like you're scum who just wants to look pro-town by making a useless call to declare townness.

Also, I have the town win condition and do not win any other way.

[MacavityLock]

However, that doesn't make it any more useless.

That's fine if you want to think it's useless, but we had something to the effect of an eventual serial killer last game. I think there's a minuscule chance of this question being useful, and I'll take it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It was well into the day when man and beast finally entered the desolate village. A scrawny little boy had come to take Clarice to the stable for a few coins, and the traveler was now actively familiarizing himself with the locale. Wandering away from the market square at a rhythmic pace, a slight movement in one of the narrow alleys caught Abel's attention. It was a figure all too familiar to him, absentmindedly leaning against a wall, not knowing it had been spotted.

"Demon!" barked Abel rowdily.

The other man turned his head so fast it nearly snapped.

"Who do you..."

He paused apprehensively for a moment, and then stepped into the sunlight, revealing his blue eyes brimming with amusement.

"Abel," exclaimed this fellow in the sudden throes of laughter, "wipe that silly grin off your dirty face, will ya?"

"You should have seen it," the false aggressor laughed, "how you just wet your panties back there."

"I almost killed you, you know," the other informed with a straight face that lasted about a millisecond.

The two clasped their extended forearms in greeting.

"Its good to see you too, Moss."

[Moratorium]

So will you only be addressing us in prose, ABR?

[hasdgfas]

vote:macavitylock

I feel like you don't understand possible consequences of the whole town saying a certain phrase. Either that or you want them to.

[Cyberbob]

Macavity, just because something "can't hurt" doesn't mean that it's something that is incredibly anti-town to criticise. The only people in this game that have any rules changed with regard to lying are going to be the Aes Sedai, and they're still going to be able to say that phrase.

So why bother beyond an attempt to make yourself look more townish for having suggested it?

[MacavityLock]

vote:macavitylock

I feel like you don't understand possible consequences of the whole town saying a certain phrase. Either that or you want them to.

I can only say that I don't understand what you're saying here.

Macavity, just because something "can't hurt" doesn't mean that it's something that is incredibly anti-town to criticise.

Whoa. I never said that it was anti-town for Sera to criticize me. I especially didn't say it was

incredibly

anything. Never FoSed, never voted. I was stating quite specifically why I thought it was a good idea, and that's all.

The only people in this game that have any rules changed with regard to lying are going to be the Aes Sedai, and they're still going to be able to say that phrase.

Also, how do you know they'll all be able to say it?

Random vote upgraded to real vote, more from the first quote, total mischaracterization of what I said, than the second.

[Cyberbob]

Whoa. I never said that it was anti-town for Sera to criticize me. I especially didn't say it was

incredibly

anything. Never FoSed, never voted. I was stating quite specifically why I thought it was a good idea, and that's all.

I don't think it's a mischaracterisation of your Post 74 at all ("incredibly" was obviously just a bit of hyperbole) to see an implication that Sera is anti-town for having criticised your idea.

Also, how do you know they'll all be able to say it?

How many Darkfriends/evil types do you know of from the WoT world that are incapable of lying?

Random vote upgraded to real vote, more from the first quote, total mischaracterization of what I said, than the second.

that'll show me!!!!!1

[armlx]

I am going to be AFK for a good chunk of this weekend due to finals + Magic prerelease, so barring some unforseen outside circumstance I won't be able to read the thread until tomorrow evening at earliest.

[xxFabianxx]

Referring to the arguments pre-game, I didn't feel comfortable with people talking before, I think it only leads to people having bias before the game even kicked off.
We must have Aes Sedai in this game, partly because they were in the mini for testing and because their rules were listed in this game.

The scum know who the other scum are, and because of that it isn't difficult for them to work out who the Aes Sedai are through process of elimination if people are asked to tell the truth.
IF we must force people to answer questions, we need to stop asking stupid questions like "Are you scum?".

I'm not smart enough to come up with decent questions though...

[julienvonwolfe]

Referring to the arguments pre-game, I didn't feel comfortable with people talking before, I think it only leads to people having bias before the game even kicked off.

So what do you think of those players who have played each other in other games?

The scum know who the other scum are, and because of that it isn't difficult for them to work out who the Aes Sedai are through process of elimination if people are asked to tell the truth.
IF we must force people to answer questions, we need to stop asking stupid questions like "Are you scum?".

I'm not smart enough to come up with decent questions though...

I'm not sure that I follow your logic here. Why would asking 'are you scum' be so harmful? In addition, your method of roundly criticizing others yet not contributing any 'decent questions' yourself strikes me as decidedly scummy.

You're right...it can't hurt.

Also, I have the town win condition and do not win in any other way.

I have the town win condition and do not win any other way.

[Shadow Knight]

The only thing that asking the entire town to say a certain phrase will accomplish is to out any Aes Sedai that are here.

unvote, vote MacavityLock

This is not only a waste of the town's time, it can lead to outing town power roles while learning nothing about the scum. This is inherantly anti-town.

[Seraphim]

Unvote
Vote: Shadow Knight

[Cyberbob]

Shadow, there is nothing inherently pro- or anti-town about Mac's idea. The only things I see being vaguely worthy of note about it are the question of whether he's only doing it to appear more townish and the implication in his rebuttal of Sera's criticism of it that Sera was being anti-town for having done so.

Neither of these things appear in your post. Either you're being daft or you're trying for an easy vote. I'm inclined to believe the former, but

FOS: Shadow Knight

just the same.

Since I might as well say it: I have the town win condition and do not win any other way.

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay, why do you think Shadow Knight is an Aes Sedai?

I don't, actually (luckily sarcasm is a defense against violating the Three Oaths, so you don't know if I'm AS or not). But I think putting any information out there about who the Aes Sedai are is going to be immensely counterproductive - they already have to be careful not just to avoid giving themselves away, but also avoid violating the oaths outright and suffering whatever the punishment is for that. Vote stands, though, because SK is hopping around like a frog on acid.

To more directly answer your question, I think Shadow Knight is making the huge assumption that Aes Sedai would be our ONLY power role. The easy assumption from that is that he has or knows specifically about that role, and thus is tunneled on it. That's what I'm talking about when I say giving away who they are, and why MacavityLock's statement is equally stupid.

FoS: MacavityLock

- your idea has one primary benefit, and that benefit is detrimental to town. Answer this question: What role(s) do you hope to catch with this maneuver?

[Shadow Knight]

@Flay- In retrospect, the vote on you should have been a FOS (which I would have removed once you posted 89. My vote on Macavity is for the exact same reason you're FOSing him.

And just to play along. I have the town win condition and can't win any other way that I know of.

[Faraday]

By the way, I win with the town and I am not aware of any circumstance in which I do not win with town.

The above should be stated by every player in the near future.

This seems pointless.

It's not like darkfriend won't just, ya know lie. I don't see how this can help. However I also don't see a way in which it can be of any harm so:
I win with the town and I am not aware of any circumstance in which I do not win with town.

I think assuming we're going to have the same setup is the start of a bad flavor argument.

I just want to reiterate this. The last time I assumed with the rest of town on how the current game could be similar with the last version was that it was full of stuff that just clouded our judgment. Then scum just capitalized on false information to push certain "way to play the game" that didn't help town.

Yeh I've read the mini, more-so out of interest than anything else.

I don't think we can be "OMGZ THIS HAPPENED IN THE MINI" as the game is obviously going to be different.

However, that doesn't make it any more useless.

That's fine if you want to think it's useless, but we had something to the effect of an eventual serial killer last game. I think there's a minuscule chance of this question being useful, and I'll take it.

How exactly would this phrase prevent the possibility of anyone turning into a serial killer?

I don't really see any harm in the question but it seems useless.

The only thing that asking the entire town to say a certain phrase will accomplish is to out any Aes Sedai that are here.

unvote, vote MacavityLock

This is not only a waste of the town's time, it can lead to outing town power roles while learning nothing about the scum. This is inherantly anti-town.

Huh?

It 1) Doesn't out any Aes Sedai or 2) out power roles by getting people to do what he's saying. Explain where you're getting this from?

Vote Shadow Knight

To more directly answer your question, I think Shadow Knight is making the huge assumption that Aes Sedai would be our ONLY power role. The easy assumption from that is that he has or knows specifically about that role, and thus is tunneled on it. That's what I'm talking about when I say giving away who they are, and why MacavityLock's statement is equally stupid. FoS: MacavityLock - your idea has one primary benefit, and that benefit is detrimental to town. Answer this question: What role(s) do you hope to catch with this maneuver?

I would agree with his first part in regard to the assumption of Aes Sedai being our only power roles.

I don't understand how MacavityLock's idea is detrimental to the town though. To me it seems to have no real benefit to anyone, but also no harm.

Also I'm unsure of my acess over the next couple of days as I'm travelling home tomorrow and then back up to university again the day after and internet at home can be shaky at times.

[Shadow Knight]

Its rather simple. Just because the sentence NOW doesn't out power roles or Aes Sedai, it doesn't mean that a sentence in the future won't. Starting down this path of "lets make everyone say the same thing" will only out the people who can't lie (Aes Sedai) later. How can you not see that?

[Seraphim]

Most likely, the Aes Sedai will find a way around any sort of direct statement. They do it all the time in the books, I'm sure that the Aes Sedai players will be able to as well.

[Faraday]

Its rather simple. Just because the sentence NOW doesn't out power roles or Aes Sedai, it doesn't mean that a sentence in the future won't. Starting down this path of "lets make everyone say the same thing" will only out the people who can't lie (Aes Sedai) later. How can you not see that?

Well I don't think asking everyone to post that one sentence will lead down such a path. I could agree that would be dangerous, but I don't see any danger in saying you win with the town.

Scum will lie when they say it, and everyone else will tell the truth.

[julienvonwolfe]

Its rather simple. Just because the sentence NOW doesn't out power roles or Aes Sedai, it doesn't mean that a sentence in the future won't. Starting down this path of "lets make everyone say the same thing" will only out the people who can't lie (Aes Sedai) later. How can you not see that?

I don't think we did this in the last game. We all claimed town and then figured out that it was a bit pointless.

[Shadow Knight]

Unless someone has the ability to detect lies, yes, its pointless. But I don't like that we're doing anything that could out/harm the Aes Sedai that are here.

@Seraphim- and you don't think it will be a little obvious when players start side-stepping questions?

[Sajin]

Its rather simple. Just because the sentence NOW doesn't out power roles or Aes Sedai, it doesn't mean that a sentence in the future won't. Starting down this path of "lets make everyone say the same thing" will only out the people who can't lie (Aes Sedai) later. How can you not see that?

Still, how could this be bad for town?

Regardless:

I have the town win condition and cannot win any other way that I know of.

[Faraday]

Still, how could this be bad for town?

Outing Aes Sedai would be bad for the town, surely?

[MacavityLock]

Whoa. I never said that it was anti-town for Sera to criticize me. I especially didn't say it was

incredibly

anything. Never FoSed, never voted. I was stating quite specifically why I thought it was a good idea, and that's all.

I don't think it's a mischaracterisation of your Post 74 at all ("incredibly" was obviously just a bit of hyperbole) to see an implication that Sera is anti-town for having criticised your idea.

Yes, it was a leap, and it was trying to cast what I said in an

incredibly

scummy light. I was expecting to get criticism of the "this is useless" variety, and I wasn't going to use that as a scumtell.

How exactly would this phrase prevent the possibility of anyone turning into a serial killer?

It wasn't supposed to prevent anything, just create some early warning.

Anyway, after a night to sleep on it, I think I understand what hascow's and Flay's objections are, though I'm not 100% sure. (Everyone else's objections, especially Shadow Knight's, are crap.) I guess I'm fine with people not saying it, which by the way, means that no one should.