Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[Kison]

Mastermind of Sin's post 617 is very good.

Not to mention, he has been "counterclaimed" by two roles that are different than his, one of the people being Shadow Knight, who is trying to get every Aes Sedai to claim their sleeping positions (hugely anti-town much?). You think that's a smart counterclaim to lynch based on? Forgive me if I am of a different viewpoint.

Two roles that are different than his own, but sharing one very crucial similarity, in that they should have detected Saidar being used as xxFabianxx claims. Do you think that both Albert B. Rampage and Shadow Knight are lying? Do you think they are doing this in coordination? If you don't believe both are lying, what do you think that says about xxFabianxx's claim that he detected Saidar being used?

I was reading through and I don't totally agree with ABR and his idea that we should state where we stayed during daybreak, Why state this? Information such as this could easily be used on succeeding night's abilities.

By daybreak, we will no longer be in the location we are claiming, since everyone comes back to the common room.

I think that Fabian is the best lynch at this point. Aside from the obvious contradiction by two claimed Aes Sedai who also claim to have the ability to detect Saidar(which they very well should), looking back at Fabian's "I was drunk" defense, his posts don't look like they were written by someone who was drunk to the point of being unable to remember what they had done the following day.

@xxFabianxx, do you drunk post often?

Unvote

Vote: xxFabianxx

[xxFabianxx]

@xxFabianxx, do you drunk post often?

Haha, best question I've been asked so far.
If you do a search you'll notice I've posted drunken shit against all reasoning in pretty much every other game I've been playing on MS, and you'll see it was at the same times as every other game.
I'm a student, I get drunk and come home and go on my computer and say stupid shit, including one in LYLO, but I won't say more about ongoing games.
Easy enough to find because I'm only in a few games here.

I can't argue my postion really, but I do realise why, I'm not going to pretend I don't and claim that my wagon is being pushed by scum or any such notion.
First off I attracted attention by posting theories that I thought worked, which obviously didn't. I have posted that I was talking shit since.

Then after reading my post the next morning and thinking WTF DID I SAY, and seeing people going... Wtf did he say... I saw a lot of attention coming my way pretty sharpish, and I claimed, because as I say, I didn't want to waste anyones time in fooling around with reasons why.

I was drunk, I did it.
Personally, I thought that in my situation it was actually more pro-town to claim early so as not to waste time, I could have argued about whether I was drunk or not for days, but where is that going to go? Maybe I'd tell you where I was and what I drank, whether or not I puked, yeah right...

Some people see it different, their reasons are all posted you can read it for yourself I'm not going to play storyteller for anyone, but they have valid points. I'm in the shithouse.
Apparantley it's scummy to claim early, and to claim doctor early is especially scummy. I think I've fallen into a crappy loophole between fake claims and simple bad play.
Either that, or I'm being policy lynched.

PS. Someone used Saidar today, as I said, and someone used Saidar today AFTER I last said someone used Saidar.
That's the last time I will ever tell you that anyone has used Saidar, unless I can fit it with someone acting scummy, or there is a very good reason for it other than I think people are trying to out Power Roles.

[xxFabianxx]

From my point of view, at the very least I gave you all something to talk about, and at best I gave you a lynch resulting with information you can use tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Can you humor me and break down his roleclaim exactly into these categories? Because I'm still not seeing it - Wisdom wasn't a role in the mini, he's actually claiming a sort of Lost Mason/Deputy/Nurse, and all of the bits of his role PM make sense to me. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but you're being too vague at present. Also, remember that he was the FIRST claim, so you can't use ABR or Shadow Knight or anybody else in your argument.

Isacc, this is in response to you as well, since my point was mainly that Wisdom didn't exist in the mini and there's no evidence of them in the books at this time period, so MoS' claim that "everything could be gleaned and constructed from existing knowledge" rang a little hollow for me.

I think you're taking this "time period" thing a little too literally. There is no reason to believe (imo) that town wisdoms do not exist in this time period, and if you *do* believe the time period has *any* bearing on the setup whatsoever, that's further evidence that Fabian is

NOT

telling the truth. Regardless, anyone who knows anything about the theme knows town wisdoms exist and that their primary function is to heal people and predict the weather, because they are untrained Saidar channelers. So Fabian, looking for a fake claim to make, would realize that town wisdom is perfect for him, because it allows him to claim a power role that can channel Saidar and couple it with a doctor claim, which is classic scum. In addition, Aes Sedai being masons existed in the last game, so his claim of being a potential mason or w/e isn't that impressive. In fact, it brings up the question of who he would be masons with, if the Aes Sedai are already paired up as ABR and SK claim. Is there some random unpaired Aes Sedai, or does Fabian just join into a threesome? Both are possible, but given the knowledge we have right now of the setup, it casts some more doubt on his claim. In addition, his claim of detecting Saidar can be lifted directly from the mini, since the Aes Sedai in that game have that ability as well. He also claimed he could still people, another ability from the mini. After that, he has claimed he could be trained and gain more abilities, but how any of that happens or what he gains out of it is conveniently vague, so we have no way of knowing whether he is just failing to get the right situation for his role to expand or never actually had those mechanics to begin with.

So, as I was saying, everything Fabian claimed could be crafted from knowledge everyone has access to, so his claim doesn't prove any sort of inside knowledge of *this* setup, which would help prove him protown.

As for SK's actions, I think only the most tunnel-visioned, blind players could not see the possible benefit that SK saw from claiming locations.

I don't think anybody's saying there aren't benefits. But the cons outweigh, for me, and most of the benefits can be achieved by things like claiming at Daybreak, without all of the same cons.

I understand that there are cons to the plan, and that they outweigh the benefits. I never said it wasn't like that. My point is, there *are* benefits, so it's understandable that someone could get tunnel-visioned on the benefits and fail to consider the cons of their own plan as they get caught up in trying to help the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fabian's results being counterclaimed by two roles

that have the same ability and would have received the same results

is really just icing on the cake that should confirm his scumminess to EVERYONE. I did not start going after Fabian based on him being counterclaimed.

How do you know the abilities are exactly the same and recieve the same kinds of results?

Isn't this obvious? All three of them have claimed to detect Saidar, the only difference being that the Aes Sedai version is MORE powerful, something that really helps *my* case, not yours. If all three detect Saidar and Saidar was used, there is no logical conclusion that leads one to believe Fabian would detect it and they wouldn't.

When an idea such as his is proposed that is fairly obviously not going to go well for the town, 90% of the time it comes from a protown player who just didn't think it through. Scum do not often suggest plans that the rest of the town are going to reject outright because of how bad it is.

Unless they think they can play it off well as pro-town and get away with it...it's something I've done as scum, successfully...

Thinking of what *you* would do as scum is never really the best plan for catching scum, especially when there are differences in skill level or play style between yourself and the player you are analyzing You have to think of what *they* would do, which is an entirely different mindset. I don't think you and SK are similar scum players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

PS. Someone used Saidar today, as I said, and someone used Saidar today AFTER I last said someone used Saidar.
That's the last time I will ever tell you that anyone has used Saidar, unless I can fit it with someone acting scummy, or there is a very good reason for it other than I think people are trying to out Power Roles.

Hmm, really? You're saying you detected Saidar *again*? When?

ABR, SK, did you detect anything?

[xxFabianxx]

He also claimed he could still people, another ability from the mini. After that, he has claimed he could be trained and gain more abilities, but how any of that happens or what he gains out of it is conveniently vague, so we have no way of knowing whether he is just failing to get the right situation for his role to expand or never actually had those mechanics to begin with.

So, as I was saying, everything Fabian claimed could be crafted from knowledge everyone has access to, so his claim doesn't prove any sort of inside knowledge of *this* setup, which would help prove him protown.

I said I could learn the ability to still people, I never gave any conditions or anything of the sort.
It was what was included in the flavour of my Old Blood ability, and I DID SAY that it was a vague description, so you can use that for or against me or pretend it was your own thoughts to say it, I never made any claim otherwise.
I was told I had old blood, and I said as much, without breaking game rules.

I'd like to add, though it's most likely to be believed by anyone at all, I never actually read the mini past the first few pages, but I do have a general idea of the books having read the first 3.

[Mastermind of Sin]

My point is, you mentioning the "Still" ability doesn't help your case, since that existed in the mini. The concept of Old Blood is something found in the books as well, by the way.

[xxFabianxx]

Hmm, really? You're saying you detected Saidar *again*? When?

ABR, SK, did you detect anything?

I'm not telling you when.
I have been honest about everything so far, including my first Saidar detection, but there isn't a chance I'm telling you when, even though after all your pushing of me I think there is a good chance you are town.

That shit can be tracked to the timing of posts and when people were online.
It can be tracked to either Aes Sedai, Black ajah (Who are Aes Sedai, but let's not get pedantic), Dark Friends, or Forsaken, or god knows what else.
In a game on Day 1, statistically if I take a wild guess at what characters are in the game, chances are it points to Aes Sedai, so no.

Maybe it's a cop who can clear me, wouldn't that be awesome for you.

Maybe I'm putting setting myself up worse but in my postion I don't think so, I'll just avoid outing any more roles inadvertantly.

[xxFabianxx]

I'd like to add, though it's most likely to be believed by anyone at all, I never actually read the mini past the first few pages, but I do have a general idea of the books having read the first 3.

EBWOP: most likely not to be believed

By the way, can someone tells me what EBWOP means?
I get the concept of it, bu never knew what it meant.

[Mr. Flay]

PS. Someone used Saidar today, as I said, and someone used Saidar today AFTER I last said someone used Saidar.
That's the last time I will ever tell you that anyone has used Saidar, unless I can fit it with someone acting scummy, or there is a very good reason for it other than I think people are trying to out Power Roles.

No. Tell us every time it happens, as long as you're alive. IF you're town, we'll know to go back over those posts later. If you're scum, we'll ignore them. Withholding information now that you've outed your ability probably isn't useful, though...

MoS: I suppose that makes sense. I don't feel like crediting Fabian with that much skill right now, but thanks for clarifying.

Mod: Vote Count?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, really? You're saying you detected Saidar *again*? When?

ABR, SK, did you detect anything?

I'm not telling you when.
I have been honest about everything so far, including my first Saidar detection, but there isn't a chance I'm telling you when, even though after all your pushing of me I think there is a good chance you are town.

That shit can be tracked to the timing of posts and when people were online.
It can be tracked to either Aes Sedai, Black ajah (Who are Aes Sedai, but let's not get pedantic), Dark Friends, or Forsaken, or god knows what else.
In a game on Day 1, statistically if I take a wild guess at what characters are in the game, chances are it points to Aes Sedai, so no.

I honestly don't think that you claiming when you detected Saidar would actually allow that person to be tracked, because you wouldn't find out about it until the Mod got online and told you. I'm just looking for a general time frame, anyway. You don't have to get too specific ("within the last few days" would be far too broad, though, obviously)

[Kinetic]

PS. Someone used Saidar today, as I said, and someone used Saidar today AFTER I last said someone used Saidar.
That's the last time I will ever tell you that anyone has used Saidar, unless I can fit it with someone acting scummy, or there is a very good reason for it other than I think people are trying to out Power Roles.

No. Tell us every time it happens, as long as you're alive. IF you're town, we'll know to go back over those posts later. If you're scum, we'll ignore them. Withholding information now that you've outed your ability probably isn't useful, though...

MoS: I suppose that makes sense. I don't feel like crediting Fabian with that much skill right now, but thanks for clarifying.

Mod: Vote Count?

Coming. Had an exam, just got in, tabulating right now.

Mod Edit: I meant to push the EDIT button, not the QUOTE button. I'm an idiot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fabian, what other mafia games have you played in other than this one?

[Mastermind of Sin]

A list will suffice, no need to dig up links for me.

[Kinetic]

The town hall is in an uproar. Several farms from the outlying areas have not been heard of. The village council is contemplating sending a small group of people to check the farms. A second group is going to visit other villages in the area and see if they noticed anything similar happening.

Something is happening...

- From the Journal of Jardor Calol

Just as a note: I'll try to have at least one vote count either every 24 hours or every page (only if we get so slow that we only have one page per 24 hour period or more). I tend to treat weekends as one day.

I realize that there may be a couple players who are, shall we say lurking? I'm going to get on that in the next day or so. Several final exams are taking a lot of my time and I'm trying to get as much time on here as possible. Once they're done my schedule opens up significantly.

EDIT: I pushed submit early. Ignore this VC until I update it and remove this tag.
EDIT2: The VC should be good.

First Mod deadline review passed.

The Eighth Vote Count

1. (2)
   Mr. Flay - Seraphim
   
2. (0) Isacc -
   
3. (0) fuzzylightning -
   
4. (0) MacavityLock -
   
5. (0) Seraphim -
   
6. (0) julienvonwolfe -
   
7. (0) Benmage -
   
8. (0) Kairyuu -
   
9. (1)
   Tenchi - hasdgfas
   
10. (3)
    Albert B. Rampage - fuzzylightning, Mufasa
    
11. (0) armlx -
    
12. (0) Slicey -
    
13. (1)
    Mastermind of Sin - Mufasa
    
14. (0) Tuberkulos -
    
15. (0) Moratorium -
    
16. (3)
    Shadow Knight - Isacc, Sajin, xxFabianxx
    
17. (1)
    Mufasa - Kison
    
18. (3)
    SpyreX - Albert B. Rampage, Mr. Flay, Knight of Cydonia
    
19. (6)
    xxFabianxx - Mastermind of Sin, Shadow Knight, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia, Benmage, Kison
    
20. (0) Myndrunner -
    
21. (0) Faraday -
    
22. (1)
    Sajin - MrBuddyLee
    
23. (0) hasdgfas -
    
24. (0) Knights of Cydonia -
    
25. (0) MrBuddyLee -
    
26. (0) Kison -

Votes Required to Lynch:

14

Not Voting (15): julienvonwolfe, Tenchi, armlx, Slicey, Tuberkulos, Myndrunner, Knights of Cydonia, MrBuddyLee, hasdgfas, fuzzylightning, Kairyuu, xxFabianxx, Moratorium, Faraday

FoS Count

1. (3)
   Mr. Flay - Faraday, Mastermind of Sin, Seraphim
   
2. (0) Isacc -
   
3. (0) fuzzylightning -
   
4. (0) MacavityLock -
   
5. (0) Seraphim -
   
6. (0) julienvonwolfe -
   
7. (0) Benmage -
   
8. (0) Kairyuu -
   
9. (0) Tenchi -
   
10. (1)
    Albert B. Rampage - Isacc
    
11. (0) armlx -
    
12. (0) Slicey -
    
13. (0) Mastermind of Sin -
    
14. (0) Tuberkulos -
    
15. (0) Moratorium -
    
16. (2)
    Shadow Knight - Cyberbob, MacavityLock
    
17. (2)
    Mufasa - xxFabianxx, Knight of Cydonia
    
18. (1)
    SpyreX - hasdgfas
    
19. (1)
    xxFabianxx - Benmage
    
20. (0) Myndrunner -
    
21. (1)
    Faraday - Albert B. Rampage
    
22. (0) Sajin -
    
23. (0) hasdgfas -
    
24. (0) Knights of Cydonia -
    
25. (0) MrBuddyLee -
    
26. (0) Kison -

Not FoSing (20): MacavityLock, julienvonwolfe, Kairyuu, Tenchi, Albert B. Rampage, armlx, Slicey, Tuberkulos, Moratorium, Shadow Knight, Mufasa, SpyreX, Myndrunner, Sajin, MrBuddyLee, Kison, fuzzylightning

Current Deadline:

May 22, 2009 at ~11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4)

Second Mod Deadline Review:

May 8, 2009 at ~11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4)

[Slicey]

Reading, on page 10. Fabian's claim seems believable as of now. My biggest suspect right now is Shadow Knight, who was doing setup speculating, trying to out Aes Sedai, who may be power roles, and then disappeared. Minor suspects are ABR (not really providing reasons for voting) and BuddyLee (buddying up towards KoC)

[Kairyuu]

This game is more of a doozy than I was expecting. The time I allotted for it was not enough. I reeeeeeaaaalllyy hope I can get caught up fully tomorrow.

[xxFabianxx]

A list will suffice, no need to dig up links for me.

Search Function, xxFabianxx.
2 Newbie games, one just finished and one in LYLO, then this and Robot Chicken.
Robot Chicken is not a good example of my or anyones playstyle, I won't comment on why because the game is ongoing, read it yourself to see why, but my drunk posts are obvious, just cross reference the times.

I'm not telling you are anyone else about what time I detected Saidar, it has been used twice today and that's the last you'll get.

Sure you can say that it's down to the mod about when he replies and noone can take anything from that.
I want to refer you to your WIFOM bullshit argument about Aes Sedai not wanting to out themselves by pressuring me for lying because it would supposedly out them.
Why the hell does your theory about me telling you times not fit into your bullshit category? Rolefish more please.

Double standards, go take a running jump.

UnFos Mufasa
FoS MoS

I was getting a town read off of you, but you're blatanlty ignoring things and it's not sitting right with me.

[xxFabianxx]

UnFos Mufase
Fos MoS

[xxFabianxx]

Godfu**ing damnit...

UnFos Mufasa
Fos MoS

[Tenchi]

I'll be catching up in the next 24 hours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not telling you are anyone else about what time I detected Saidar, it has been used twice today and that's the last you'll get.

Sure you can say that it's down to the mod about when he replies and noone can take anything from that.
I want to refer you to your WIFOM bullshit argument about Aes Sedai not wanting to out themselves by pressuring me for lying because it would supposedly out them.
Why the hell does your theory about me telling you times not fit into your bullshit category? Rolefish more please.

Double standards, go take a running jump.

UnFos Mufasa
FoS MoS

I was getting a town read off of you, but you're blatanlty ignoring things and it's not sitting right with me.

How am I ignoring ANYTHING *or* rolefishing!? You're just throwing terms out there that have nothing to do with what you said...

As for my theory about Aes Sedai not wanting to pressure you, I was obviously right since two claimed Aes Sedai counterclaimed your Saidar detection, and one of them gut-reaction voted you and then unvoted a few posts later, and the other one didn't go after you at all! So you can hardly justify calling my theory bullshit, since so far I'm right on the mark. As for timing, I don't really need you to get more specific than "Sunday Afternoon" or "Thursday Morning". I'm just looking for a generic time frame, nothing specific enough to out any roles.

[Sajin]

A list will suffice, no need to dig up links for me.

Search Function, xxFabianxx.
2 Newbie games, one just finished and one in LYLO, then this and Robot Chicken.
Robot Chicken is not a good example of my or anyones playstyle, I won't comment on why because the game is ongoing, read it yourself to see why, but my drunk posts are obvious, just cross reference the times.

I'm not telling you are anyone else about what time I detected Saidar, it has been used twice today and that's the last you'll get.

Sure you can say that it's down to the mod about when he replies and noone can take anything from that.
I want to refer you to your WIFOM bullshit argument about Aes Sedai not wanting to out themselves by pressuring me for lying because it would supposedly out them.
Why the hell does your theory about me telling you times not fit into your bullshit category? Rolefish more please.

Double standards, go take a running jump.

UnFos Mufasa
FoS MoS

I was getting a town read off of you, but you're blatanlty ignoring things and it's not sitting right with me.

Restricting information from town-check

Wifom argument to confuse rather than clarify- check

misrepresenting about lying-check

Unvote

Vote: xxFabianxx

[Moratorium]

Back to my original vote.

vote: xxFabianxx

I'm still looking at someone who gave the drunk defense when his riddle didn't pan out as an appropriate exercise.

"You stand at a fork in the road. Next to each of the two forks, there stands a guard. You know the following things: 1. One path leads to Paradise, the other to Death.
One of the two guards always tells the truth, and the other guard always lies.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for you to distinguish between the two guards.
You may ask one question to one guard. What do you ask?

I don't know a lot of people who drink for "12+" hours and then have the brainpower to talk about riddles. And use vocabulary like:

I just failed to convey it.

we're all human and we have bias

scum have to lie because of their allegiance

So you appear to me to be lying. About riddles. Why? Shame?

The other issue is that in order for me to believe your claim, I have to disbelieve the claims of the other players who indicate that they did not detect saidar when you did. "Lesser Detect Saidar" seemed a rather convenient claim.

"Lesser Detect Saidar" works when "Detect Saidar" doesn't?

"Lesser" makes little sense in this context.

I honestly don't think that you claiming when you detected Saidar would actually allow that person to be tracked, because you wouldn't find out about it until the Mod got online and told you. I'm just looking for a general time frame, anyway. You don't have to get too specific ("within the last few days" would be far too broad, though, obviously)

I think Mastermind of Sin has come up with a lot of insight this game, and agree with him in having you declare general time frames.

My feeling is that of all the claims out there currently, someone is lying. It's not just a bunch of town arguing, as there seems to be too much contradiction to ignore.