DHSDSM alpha: Game Over.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Regarding YoSo, I would not vote to lynch them, (other than their possible lie and trying to find an excuse for sexEd..

Where did they try to make an excuse for SWSW during the modkill fiasco?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#1649583
If anything Yos tried to blame them for it all the way through

Wow, that's actually a good catch. I want to hear what team Yosariwen has to say about it

I'm basically convinced now. Sexy shaft is right, lets move it.

Unvote, vote: Yosariwen

The town needs to finish off this wagon and kickstart a new one soon.

First you want to hear more then you decide you just want to vote, and finally you decide you don’t want to hear more and just want a lynch. This looks very jumpy and I don’t buy that you’re convinced since you weren’t directly looking at Yosariwen before that first post but you considered Incamnito scum from the early posts. Did you believe Incamn had crumbed in the beginning? If so you must have thought Yosariwen had caught SCUM crumbing. If not, you aren’t reading.

We should hear more defense from Nuwen, but your vote here looks opportunistic rather than scumhunting.

Vote: Ortohoops

I'd argue there vote was ahh crap looks like I can't help yoswen anymore. Fuck I'll bus them.


During the posts between here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 17#1649817
and here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 86#1649886
RW voted and unvoted for yoswen asking back and forth about lieing as A&B pressured them. RW's suspcions seems to flop way to fast on Yoswen and I got to wonder if they tried to hammer/bus there buddy then because they didn't like being attacked. Bullied by others you looked scared for your survival there RW.

Would I hammer you both now? NO! But I have no problem putting you at l1 after spending half my night defending you

and I will let the rest of the town be the judge of this and who we lynch.

Anyone else besides me think this doesn't make alot of sence. You don't want hammer but you want to vote and or lynch them?

This is Plum at the helm saying that Yosariwen is probably town. And that Raging Wishbone and Apples and Banana are probably my top suspects. I will, jhowever, try to do a readthrough and commentary now; we'll see how long it is . . .

Ortohoops' post noting something Trotsky said early is good. It may involve WIFOM but I'm inclined to agree that Trotsky was more likely pointing out three actual townies (Myself is confirmed to me, Incamn has flipped, and I'm inclined to say Yosariwen is town without this).

Yay a no... Try again.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64#1650764
Rest of your post lookslike a huge defence of yoswen too

First real post of the game, and it points out a breadcrumb. I've been trying to figure out if there are any possible scum motivations for doing this, by looking at the role list, and the only one I can think of is trying to get Incamn killed by the Mafia/SK (other than her), if there is one.

I don’t follow the logic of this idea. If she can kill and she thinks she’s found town power role then why doesn’t she kill it herself? The only upside I can think is that another killing faction doesn't kill her, but that's at very low odds that early so it doesn't seem worth it as any faction. What other reason is there?

Oddly enough Yoswen turned up scum doctor. A role that can't send the scum kill if you check the first post. I'm guessing they want the SK to do the job or their buddy to do the job. You asked more about the crumbing vs clue and joking so I'm slightly considering it being a signle to you do the job aswell. slightly.

ortolan here

Why would you assume something before you have reason to assume it? I'd say that Yosariwen pointing out the breadcrumb thus signaling to the scum "HEY-O POWER ROLE HERE" is a much better reason for the kill than to frame 5 people on a bandwagon.

So you think they are an SK? Otherwise please explain to me why it would not make more sense for them simply to point out the crumb in their quicktopic and then kill.

I already broke down the likely reasons for all five votes in one of my posts.

Yer but the point was you explained their votes in terms of "they're all dumbasses" etc. but this implies that the reason they are voting is that they are dumb townies, as opposed to scummy. Yet you still went on to vote Pesco (again having earlier just said they were "weak" rather than scummy).

You're also basically saying that Incamn was guilty until proven innocent, which is completely ass-backwards here. Power roles of both alignments have motive to crumb their action, yes. However, pointing it out will either tell the scum what they already know or say "HEY-O POWER ROLE HERE" to them.

I agree with this though.

Explain "Incamn's crumbing was a null-tell" v. "Incamn's crumbing was more likely to be scum than town" to me, please.

and this.

Why are you assuming it was a scum kill, Frog? Especally considering that there were 5 votes on the wagon, I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Incamn kill was a compulsive vig (remember, if there is a compulsive vig, that role has to kill every single action phase, every 96 hours.)

Why would you assume compulsive vig over SK anyway? Each appears equally likely to be in the setup. I am wondering whether to interpret this as its own attempt at a crumb.

...

I don't see why we're assuming scum will play a carbon copy of the other game anyway - nor do I see any indication that that was what DGB did in war in heaven. If we say that scum are only x, y and z type of people, then it's way too easy for scum just to avoid the prescribed scumtells and never be lynched. We need to stop thinking so much about this, frankly. It's really very simple. We play mafia, just at twice/thrice/quicker the normal pace.

I agree with this again. Froggy's become quite pro-town in my eyes (and reactions similar to mine).

If, for example, they were a scum power role trying to get another scum to send in the kill because they wanted to use their power role instead, it would have been a good play.

Actually, they can day-talk, so they didn't need to declare it in-thread.

I like A&B's 186, especially:

This makes even more sense if Yosariwen is an SK that is setting up a Compulsive Vig claim

My thoughts exactly.

The other point I will make out power roles is that saying they are equally likely, if truthful to be Mafia as to be town is assuming the principle of insufficient reason- "because there are 3 mafia power roles listed, and 5 town, a power-role is 3/8ths likely to be scum." Now while I actually used this earlier to assume an SK or vig is equally likely in this setup, it's not necessarily wise to do. Just because a mafia power-role can appear in the game, doesn't necessarily mean it's necessarily as likely to appear as another listed town power-role. Especially take into account game balance here.

...and something else I just realised. Nuwen explicitly said that Incamnito's crumb was for an

information

role. None of the mafia power-roles are, in fact,

information

roles.

Um, scum can apparently daytalk because it says they can in the scum role PMs posted in the mod's post. Putting the word "apparently" into sentances like that is basically a force of habit by this point, since if I didn't, you probably would have called THAT a scumtell.

I don't actually like the use of the word "apparently" here either. The opening pms very obviously state that scum can daytalk. There's no reason to use qualifying phrases like "it looks like".

If Incamn had been a scum who was trying to breadcrumb tracker early on so they could use that to their advantage later, then calling it out and putting the spotlight on Incamn early would have been an AWESOME pro-town play.

The point being made here (by Frog I believe) was in fact that the breadcrumb is more likely to have come from town than scum- so if in fact the breadcrumb did turn out to be from scum it still would have been bad play to have pointed it out, because this outcome was less probable than the alternative.

Only if the crumb is noticed. If a scum can plant a crumb early on and no one notices it, then the scum can use that crumb to set up a fake claim later in the game; or can choose to not do so, if it's to their advantage. Which is another advantage to pointing out a crumb, especally if it's a crumb that seems like one a pro-town person wouldn't really want to make.

Really; why would a pro-town tracker feel the need to crumb at the very part of day 1? I still don't get that, personally; considering it's a semi-open game, the odds of a tracker claiming tracker and not being believed seems very small to me.

You basically contradict yourself here. You suggest scum have a decent chance of fake-breadcrumbing/fake-claiming tracker yet suggest there is little reason not to believe a tracker-claim.

I'm still catching up (thanks to Hoops for doing most of the work so far) but right now I'm very very happy with the Yoswen vote. I know people don't like wall o' texts so I'll probably make another post to get up to present.

Huh? Is it just me or did ortlon just go from defending yoswen perception of a crumb to frog to attacking yoswen for pointing the crumb out all in one post?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 21#1651521
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50#1651550
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60#1651660
I'll read these posts again when some medicine I took slows down but it still looks way off.

I think Jscope has seemed very involved and very analytical in all their posts. I don't think they have done anything scummy. I am not sure what to think of Poke/Tajo but I also have not gotten any bad vibes from them. I would love to hear more from Poke/Tajo and, expecially DGB/Plum.

I will be back with more thoughts after a full reread and hopefully RR will add his thoughts soon too. I would love to find more links with Trotsky and Yo/Nuwen...

Huh where did you get a sudden flop of opinion on me? You said you thought PtA was town saying tajo read like himself and I was like a card player. And now you are all changing your opinion? I can't recall if Tajo posted much between you reading us as town then changing your mind. Feels like your view change is false just to look like you are agreeing with SWSW

I am still doing a re-read, I will post more thoughts soonish if I can. Yeah, I apologize you wrote 3 in red, so do you have

any kinda case on Death the hog, Jscope, or Tajo/Poker team? I am not seeing anything odd in their posts so far?

I need to read Death again, but for some reason I thought he was on the Yo/Nuw wagon? Anyways, I will finish my reread and I would like to talk to my partner when he comes around to hear his thoughts. If you have a case against someone, please post it.

Huh what the fuck did you just flop again all on the same page? Do you think i am scum or I am town. Pick one, I can't be both.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 30#1652430
Your vote here came off like OMGUS on zaphod since you orginally quoted suspicions on them

Thinking one of ortohoops or RW would be Yos&Trot's buddy.

<<Waits for twighlight to end so he can vote somebody. I don't think votes count atm

You look too much into clues me thinks. Inside jokes are laughed at by parties involved. You have said nothing and or waited for a laugh.

I was just looking into something I didn't understand. Tell me, did you understand why he said he was voting for ZMD

because

of Portishead? I thought it was good to ask to determine whether it was something he was willing or unwilling to explain.

Nope I didn't. I figured it was RVS joking and the punchline would get shown later if it was important. Even I joked in the RVS thinking SWSW would like a laugh. Speaking of jokes...

nyballosulgniirkps?
Where did you get that name from? A list of my worst spelling fuck ups of all time? heh heh.

[whoami8]

RW voted and unvoted for yoswen asking back and forth about lieing as A&B pressured them. RW's suspcions seems to flop way to fast on Yoswen and I got to wonder if they tried to hammer/bus there buddy then because they didn't like being attacked. Bullied by others you looked scared for your survival there RW.

This inference assumes that RW and his "scum buddy" Yoswen were not logged in at the same time with access to out of thread discussion.

[Saunt Adelaus]

Start of Day 2

~~~

Votecount:

not voting:

11

: Apples and Banana, Death the Hogfather, Frog Dodging, J-Scope, nyballosulgniirkps, Ortohoops, PoketheAlpaca, Raging Wishbone, sex w/ shafteds wife club, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Zmd

while 11 are alive, 6 votes will lynch

[Saunt Adelaus]

Pesco Light requested replacement.

Votecount as of post 347:

Yosariwen:

7

:Frog Dodging, sex w/ shafteds wife club, Ortohoops, Apples and Banana, Pesco Light, Raging Wishbone, Zmd
Raging Wishbone:

2

:Zaphod Beeblebrox, Yosariwen
sex w/ shafteds wife club:

1

:PoketheAlpaca,
Ortohoops:

1

:J-Scope,
Zmd:

1

:Death the Hogfather,

not voting:

0

:

while 12 are alive, 7 votes will lynch

Yosariwen, an Armenian mafia doctor, was lynched on Sat May 02, 2009 at 8:28 pm. It is now twilight. Twilight expires between 6 and 18 hours from the time the last vote on Yosariwen was cast.

Apples and Banana was originally missing from the votecount. No major mod error, thankfully, there were 7 votes on Yosariwen. I edited the original votecount to reflect this correction.

[Raging Wishbone]

RR here, playing catch-up again.

8:52:11 PM Mercuriala: guh, this sounds like a ringing endorsement for a power role witch hunt, which -seems- like a sub-optimal way to catch scum. But the numbers!
8:52:34 PM ArtherDent: Heh. I'm glad you have a good justification lined up
8:53:41 PM Mercuriala: I tend to have reasons for everything. I probably should have explained myself prior, whoops.
8:53:54 PM ArtherDent: Eh, 's all right.
8:54:47 PM ArtherDent: One suggestion...you may want to sign that post
8:55:11 PM ArtherDent: I'm sure most of them will figure out it's coming from you and not me, but still, we don't need this getting any more confused then it already is, hah
8:55:20 PM Mercuriala: Indeed.
8:56:07 PM Mercuriala: A skimmer like Jdodge might very well latch onto "two conflicting posts OMGOMGOMG" for three plus pages.
8:56:22 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
8:57:08 PM Mercuriala: I am also changing Yosariwen's phpbb style. Do you have any sepia allergies?
8:57:17 PM ArtherDent: Heh. Not to my knowlege

8:59:43 PM Mercuriala: Deep south tends to reward lynching every claimed player.

9:00:00 PM Mercuriala: Just based on the higher 50-50 distribution of open power roles.
9:00:17 PM ArtherDent: Eh; I disagree
9:00:40 PM ArtherDent: Lynching a power role, especally an information role, costs the town so much more then lynching a vanillia does
9:00:59 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, the cost of a mislynch is far higher.
9:01:06 PM Mercuriala: But the chance of it is much lower.
9:01:31 PM ArtherDent: Eh...well, except that if someone is a power role, you can also get infromation from how they use their power role
9:01:42 PM ArtherDent: Not to mention, if they have an info role, you get even more information
9:02:33 PM ArtherDent: Actually, I would tend to lean to the other extreme; in a mafia game like this, the goal of the town is often to get enough information so they can quicklynch everyone who DOSN'T have a confirmable claim or some role-based way of confirming them as town
9:02:46 PM Mercuriala: Consider also the mexican standoff of claims that can happen in a deep south lylo; there are only so many claim/alignment combinations that can explain how actions resolved.
9:03:11 PM Mercuriala: Which is a great place for town to be in.
9:03:24 PM ArtherDent: Very true
9:04:23 PM ArtherDent: Also; let's say you lynch all power roles, town and scum. In that case, you kind of make it into a mountanous game; and town has historically had a very, very bad record in mountanous games
9:05:17 PM Mercuriala: Also true.

Looking at the gaps between the bolded post and the one that came before it, both in timstamp and the complete change of subject, makes me think a part of this conversation's been omitted. Cosidering the use of the phrase "town" as in "they" rather than "us" makes this feel even worse. This post makes me wanna forget about not liking the rest of the case against them and vote Yosariwen.

Walt's being sorta pedantic here, but the guy totally broke Lover's Multiball with this kind of thinking and I'm wiliing to believe he may be onto something here.

What QT?

Me and Walt set up a QT to communicate when we're not both online. You should do the same if you're town and haven't yet.

Someone's not doing their meta homework.

Enlighten me, than. Are you always this nice to people you're about to lynch?

Freudian slip? :beardscratch:

Nah, I just fail at English.

I don't see that; I see FD arguing against basically policy lurker lynchng. I agree that speedlynching lurkes is a bad idea, but I'm not letting the lurkers of the hook: lurking, especially active lurking/posting without much actual content will be weighted as a BIG scumtell in my books. Nvertheless, I think the first part of your attack on FD here is a misrepresentation, as Ortohoops' plan was not perfect; parts were not even good ideas to implement, and I don't see FD's arguments against it as actually translating into wanting to slow the game down, as you say. FOS Raging Wishbone.

I think if you read between FD's lines you should easily be able to tell that they want the game slowed down to an extent I (and orthoops) find very dangerous.

You're trusting your partner's judgement on two players you think may be town? No strong scum reads? Get some and grow a spine while you're at it, please; if you think someone is scum, don't sit with your vote on him or her.

Don't see what's wrong in waitiing for a second opinion from someone you know is town before voting if you're not completely sure.

Sudden, unexpected, unexplaianed switch from 'Yosariwen is prob town' to 'I'm putting Yosariwen at L-1 because suddenly I decided I needed to lick everyone's boots'? DIE SCUM DIE.

Unvote; Vote: Raging Wishbone

Ugh, and then you go back on yourself aagin? *is going to be bald at this rate of hair-pulling*

And then you vote again because apparently Nuwen didn't answer certain of your questions except I can't see where any questions you've asked have made any sense? *goes to pull out her sister's hair*

I don't think I should be answering this for Walt, since I don't know what was going through his mind at the time, but I don't see how changing his mind there proves him to be conformist scum. Don't you think he'd be calling for a hammer if his only wish was to please you guys?




I typed this post yesterday evening and was stopped short in my attempt to finally catch up by a few posts. Just came back and saw Yos flipped scum. I'll post this part in itself than keep going with this new knowledge in mind.

[Raging Wishbone]

Strongly disagree with this.

FoS: Ragin'

The "arguing against Ortohoops plan" is not necessarily true, is an easy target and you don't go into detail. What specifically do you find pro-town about Yoswen also??? Never mind, you later clarify the second part.

You missed the part about him having been sorta useless early on, then improving drastically immediatly after hoopla suggested lynching the useless people, despite disagreeing with this.

Similar sort of argument - it's just unnatural scum play - and it turned out to be 100% utterly wrong. Oman was scum who only really got lynched through an unfortunate process of elimination.

So? Just because the person happened to be scum in that case (and, in hindsight, here) doesn't mean the point doesn't still apply. Bad plays for both scum and town aren't scum tells, and given time I don't feel like spending I could easily dig up at least 4 counter-examples of the opposite happening (townies being lynched for general bad play).

What I have learnt is that one of the cornerstones of scum play is to do something unusual, take a stance that is unpopular, move in ways town do not expect you to go - and then town write you off because, well, "scum would never do that." I realise the analogies are not perfect, but the underlying principle - beware the unexpected - remains the same.

The above still stands, but note that I never said this was in any way a scumtell.

Yos is also, now, not reading the game thoroughly. He claims there was no contradiction - proving that he has not read J-scope's post, where he points out a contradiction. If he were aware of even an alleged contradiction, then he would not act so affronted when it is referenced by Hogfather.

He also claimed there was no non-crumb case against him - when we had already bought up a couple points against them which do not rely at all on the crumb post. Again, his reaction indicates he hasn't even seen this post by us. Which is extremely worrying - it really, really worries me when a player under this much pressure is only skimming the game. I have only my own experience on this (not even my partner's, who I cannot consult at the moment - he'll be back tomorrow) but people who skim the game like that, who aren't really aware of what is actually being said, are so often scum. I know for a fact that when I'm feeling lazy as scum I do this. If you don't actually care about who scum is - seeing as you already know - it becomes almost irrelevant what people are actually saying. You just need to read enough to give the illusion of scumhunting.

I think Yos fully explained the contradiction thing, in a way that also happened to be the truth - the most likely sequence of events is indeed that Nuwen screwed up and posted the crumbs, then Yos told her off on aim and explained why this type of thinking won't seem protown. Not sure what J-scope post you're talking about. I also don't recall any point being made against Yosariwen that wasn't related to either the crumbing or their reaction to being attacked for it. This is why I thought the case was weak, until the aim conversation started giving me the shivers. Can you point me to the post where you attack them for points not related to crumbing?

Raging Rabbit - If you continue to insinuate that I am scum simply because I am disagreeing with you, then there's really no point in arguing. I'm not going to waste time trying to convince a player who is clearly so motivated by his ideology that he can't even consider that town could have a differing opinion than him.

That's not all there was to it. See above. Also, for the record, I think your approach to Yos makes you more likely town and don't suspect you that much any longer.

Do you see what I mean? The idea of lynching lurkers days 1 and 2 etc make it even worse - it's so easy for scum to just push the attention off their partners when they get in trouble but push any townie wagons - and because we need to lynch quickly, we go after the easy lynches, and because we're lynching quickly and we're rushing, we never have the opportunity to go back and spot these connections after all. Personally, I would prefer one informed lynch a day to two rushed lynches a day.

Untrue. Maybe two lynches a "day" would be more rush (though I'd never suggested we'd deteriorate to being as idiotic as your example suggested), but it'll also

double the amount of town kills

. It's clearly worth it.

FD quotes the post I was asking about above in 334.


332 Yos tags an easy vote on us for the Walt changing his mind thing. I still think he probably has a reasonable explanation for this.

Yos is also not his usual self. I would expect yos to be slightly more angry at this point in his wagon rather than conciliatory. I would also have expected him to start scumhunting by now rather than questioning people. I would definitely expect him to have called out the lurkers, and I would definitely expect him to be more actively involved in the game rather than just sitting around asking questions. It's no good asking questions if you don't respond to the answers.

I think the only thing it's worrying he didn't comment about is the lack of scumhunting, which was a good point I should've noticed.

Because scum never vote their buddies in the RVS, right?

Dude. Joke.

There's been no scum kill today. With the amount of time Yos was at L-1 it would have been a twofer for scum to kill someone and thus force a mis-lynch. On the other hand, if Yos was scum, HAD they killed they would have sacrificed one of their own in order to land a kill during the day. This would have been avoided had a bus'ing partner recused themselves from voting Yos. Addin in the pickle the scum were in due to losing a RB day one, I am guessing that if Yos flips scum his wagon almost has to be pure town. Making his the non-Yos voters the remaining place to look for scum.

I'm not sure the twilight is gonna stop scum from killing in the second action block, but if it will yay town. Other than that you're totally right.


In 347 Walt explains himself very well, as I thought he would.


Got to page 15 and I got to go again. I seriously hope I'll manage to finish catching up later today.

[Apples and Banana]

What QT?

Me and Walt set up a QT to communicate when we're not both online. You should do the same if you're town and haven't yet.

1) I'm the only one posting/playing, xofelf has been busy
2) She's my girlfriend, I talk to her on a very regular basis anyways
3) Mind posting a screenshot of an earlier segment of the QT? Preferably one where you're discussing who you think is Scum. Also nice to be included would be the title of the QT. (Obviously, crop/blur out the url.)

[whoami8]

I agree w/ RW Plum's posting feels like an attempt to slow down and derail the Yos wagon.

vote: Zaphod

[Raging Wishbone]

Paradoxically, I agree with Yosariwen's analysis, flavored as it is with distancing, because Raging Wishbone acted exactly the way one would expect scum to react to the Day 1 wagon of a valuable buddy. First defending, then joining for reasons that make no sense, but not willing to hammer.

I would wager that Raging Wishbone is Yosariwen's buddy. Opinions?

Why would Yos' buddy add his vote to put Yos at L-1, but specifically go out of his way to mention he isn't willing to hammer? Someone else will hammer instead, he's done his share towards killing his only remaining teammate, and to bus gains less pro town points because of the not willing to hammer bit. Saying that but still voting him doesn't protect Yos one bit. This makes no sense at all.

So you're saying you've slowed down your activity drastically sitewide? Can someone here confirm this?

Her (Nuwen's) fake IM convo reeked of scum posting something to make themselves look town....

Actually, I'm pretty sure the convo wasn't fake, just rather obvisouly omitted. Why other people analyzing that failed to note the strange gap in timestamp and subject, I've no idea.

Then I think it's likely that one scum is in the red group, and another in the blue group.

That both isn't what you said before and makes no sense since we know for a fact there's 3 scum.

FOS Zaphod

.

Flavour reveals the dead, specifically, as Armenian Mafia. We know we have two killing groups. What are the odds that there are two scumgroups? I know two scumgroups is always tight in a game this size, but it's a possibility.

I distinctly remember Adel saying that the setup in both games will be a 3 person scumgroup + either SK or compulsive vig. Therefore, no second scumgroup. I guess the Armenian thing is just a joke.

Definitely not complaining about that. 2 scum down, one to go (plus possibly an SK). I am sorta disappointed about not getting on to hammer earlier today as I planned to. Meh.

Alright, I like DGB/Plum as town personally. I don't think Trotsky would have made it that easy for us.

@Frog: 0% chance of a second scumgroup according to the first post.

@all: I pretty much agree completely on the Raging Wishbone being scum thing. They need to die ASAP. Sorry I don't have more to add at the moment. I'm working on getting into this game, but its somewhat difficult.

-goes off to shoot hydra partner who seems to have disappeared-

vote: Raging Wishbone

Talk about scummy... I don't even feel the need to really explain this.

Looking at PescoLight, RagingWishbone and Zmd, I'd say that both PescoLight and Zmd were the most convincing scum hunters. But I'm not sure how reliable my scumdar is these days.

That's absurd, Zmd's done close to nothing the whole game.

DGBPlum: HAve you ever read a game with DBGscum and daytalking. It's her favorite. She wouldn't be participating this little IMHO. least likely

Excellent point, though she's crafty enough to be doing this to dodge her own meta. Again, I'd be interested to know if this lack of interest is site-wide.

Anyone else besides me think this doesn't make alot of sence. You don't want hammer but you want to vote and or lynch them?

No, this doesn't make sense. And no, that doesn't make it a scumtell.

The above still stands, but note that I never said this was in any way a scumtell.

And my scumtell, I meant towntell. Though it's really not both.

3) Mind posting a screenshot of an earlier segment of the QT? Preferably one where you're discussing who you think is Scum. Also nice to be included would be the title of the QT. (Obviously, crop/blur out the url.)

I'm not sure Adel will be ok with this, nor do I think my fucekd up computer is capable of taking screenshots. Otherwise, fine.

Mod

, is this allowed?

[Saunt Adelaus]

see rules 17 and 18

[Raging Wishbone]

Remaining players:

1. Zaphod Beeblebrox - definitely scummy, but sex club's point on DGB's meta makes me wanna rethink.

Sex club

, does the vote you just put on Zaphod means you no longer think that point valid, or was it just the other half of the hydra (I'd guess elvis) posting?

2. Apples and Banana - I'm a bit uncomfortable with them, but they did play a part in Yoswagon. Possibly SK.

3. Zmd - completely useless, and I think the hammer on Yos was weakly reasoned and could've easily been a bus, as it was rather obvious he was getting lynched at that point. Definitely lynch-worthy.

5. Death the Hogfather - extreme lurkage. votes Yos for "contradiction", waits for his response then goes "oh, that makes sense! you must be town then!" and voted Zmd. Then posts after the lynch, saying he's sorry he couldn't hammer 'cause he sure was planning to, that he "definitely isn't complaining" about two scum being down, and that he agrees with "all" about me and walt being scum, and we therefore need to die aspap. No further explanation whatsoever. This is probably because he's scum.

8. Ortohoops - almost definitely town.

9. sex w/ shafteds wife club - almost definitely town.

10. PoketheAlpaca - not active enough, especially around the Yos wagon. I don't really like Poker catch-up post, either. Could easily be the remaining scumbuddy, but for now there are better candidates around.

11. nyballosulgniirkps Pesco Light - least close to confirmed not-mafia of all early Yos voters, but still probably not mafia. Possibly sk, if we have one.

13. J-Scope - reading sorta neutral, I find myself not remembering much of what they did here. Could be Jahudo flying under the radar as GF again, though if I understood correctly only 'scope is posting at the moment. Could you confirm this, J-scope?

14. Frog Dodging - I'd say definitely not scum with Yos, but could still be SK.



My coclusion is to lynch Death asap and think about the others later.

Vote: Death the Hogfather.

[Raging Wishbone]

see rules 17 and 18

Yeah, gathered as much. We talk about beta as well there, so that can't be done. I could paraphrase our talk on alpha, though.

[ortolan]

I'd argue there vote was ahh crap looks like I can't help yoswen anymore. Fuck I'll bus them.

Yer being the third vote on the wagon of scum is blatantly scummy but not joining the wagon at all is squeaky clean. If, as you're suggesting here, Yoswen was caught scum before we placed our vote (on L-5) how come you never even filled one of the remaining four voting slots after we placed our vote, scummy scum scum?

Huh? Is it just me or did ortlon just go from defending yoswen perception of a crumb to frog to attacking yoswen for pointing the crumb out all in one post?

Here's how it is. That address was to Frog Dodging in my re-read. As I (and Hoops, and loads of other people said), pointing out the breadcrumb, like Nuwen did, was clearly bad play if scum. That is a point against them being scum, until you realise that on the other hand, the play makes no sense as town either. I think my post makes this thought process clear. It's why I go from a somewhat aggressive response to Froggy to declaring him obv-town (well, at least, obv-not mafia). In fact, it was entirely true that it was bad play for scum. They were scum, and it was a bad play. Anything else?

I think if you read between FD's lines you should easily be able to tell that they want the game slowed down to an extent I (and orthoops) find very dangerous.

You can tell from his posts (and leading bandwagon against scum) that this is not the case.

332 Yos tags an easy vote on us for the Walt changing his mind thing. I still think he probably has a reasonable explanation for this.

You're right.

Anyway, my main suspect right now is Raging Wishbone. Early on, they were defending me; then all of a sudden they turned around and joined my wagon, for reasons that make absolutly no sense at all. And it's interesting to note that he was not willing to hammer me, but wanted on to the bandwagon when it wasn't a hammer; which just makes it look like he knows the wagon is going to go bad, and dosn't want to take the blame for it.

...This was a crappy reason. What a good way to make your scumbuddy look good when you flip scum.

Why would Yos' buddy add his vote to put Yos at L-1, but specifically go out of his way to mention he isn't willing to hammer? Someone else will hammer instead, he's done his share towards killing his only remaining teammate, and to bus gains less pro town points because of the not willing to hammer bit. Saying that but still voting him doesn't protect Yos one bit. This makes no sense at all.

Repeat after me. W-I-F-O-M.

...Anyway why would a townie care whether they were the L-1 or the L vote on a wagon? Why would you comment on it to begin with?

[Ortohoops]

Vote: Raging Wishbone

J-Scope is probably the SK. We (I ) dislike his tunneling on us and failure to comment on the more populous wagons.

[Apples and Banana]

see rules 17 and 18

Yeah, gathered as much. We talk about beta as well there, so that can't be done. I could paraphrase our talk on alpha, though.

Ah, hadn't even thought of that.

Don't bother paraphrasing, that ruins the purpose.

[whoami8]

I am short on time this weekend, but wanted to put down some thoughts:

DeaththeHogfather - pretty scummy the way he voted Yos L-1 and then had a fight with Yos, then unvoted Yos. Seems like distancing but reluctance to actually keep Yos at L-1. Because with Yos at L-1, the scumteam could not make a kill, so they DID NOT want him L-1.

RW - tried to derail Yos wagon with the "who tried ot modkill Yos OMG?!!11!!" bullshit. Defended Yos a lot, then voted Yos in a startling turn of events. I'm sort of thinking he may be just a town moron, but I think my other head thinks he's more likely scum.

ZMD - *MIGHT* still be scum even though hammered Yos. Scum couldn't make a kill while Yos was L-1. They might have decided Yos was unsavable after a while at L-1 and just decided to earn town credit and hammer him themselves.

PTA - Was so quiet until after the Yos lynch. Lurking to avoid having to buss Yos?

Also, I am thinking we shouldn't assume the scum team is only three people. I believe the rules say there is ATLEAST a 3-man scum group. That means there could also be four. Or more, I guess, but I think balance would prob make five unlikely. Actually, maybe three

is

a good number if one was a maf RB, one was maf doc, and last one is a GF. Three would make sense if they're all PRs.

I think Hogfather is scummiest, but I have only really skimmed the last couple pages, so I won't change our vote since shaft.ed has been all up in this piece and he may have seen stuff I didn't.

[whoami8]

I think I may have misread my other head's posting on RW. I saw the comment about slowing down the Yos wagon and thought he meant RW, but he meant DGBplum. It looks like he doesn't think RW is scum. And I don't really either. And RW's comments today make sense to me. I agree with him that Hog is prob scum.

[Apples and Banana]

This setup will include 1 Mafia Group of 3 players, AND at least 1 Compulsive Vig OR 1 Sk.[/i]

We know it is a 3-man scumgroup (1 left), and exactly 1 Compulsive Vig or SK.

[J-Scope]

J-Scope is probably the SK. We (I Razz) dislike his tunneling on us and failure to comment on the more populous wagons.

I’ll comment on the Raging Wishbone and Zaphod wagons when I get on the same page as my partner. What other populous wagons have we avoided?

How do those suspicions you have make SK the conclusion rather than mafia scum?

13. J-Scope - reading sorta neutral, I find myself not remembering much of what they did here. Could be Jahudo flying under the radar as GF again, though if I understood correctly only 'scope is posting at the moment. Could you confirm this, J-scope?

It’s much more J than Scope actually. Do you think I am flying under the radar? When have I flew under the radar as GF?

[Raging Wishbone]

...This was a crappy reason. What a good way to make your scumbuddy look good when you flip scum.

Right, 'cause Yos would be this obvious... I don't think he expected to be lynched, so he could've just been trying to push the wagon that seemed second strongest. If he had post-mortem in mind, I doubt he'd suck that much at "making me look good" unless he wanted people to think I was his scumbuddy.

Repeat after me. W-I-F-O-M.

...Anyway why would a townie care whether they were the L-1 or the L vote on a wagon? Why would you comment on it to begin with?

No, you repeat after me.

Plays that are bad for any alingment aren't scumtells

. Why would town do this? No idea. Why would scum do this? No idea. Why is scum more likely to do this than town, then? They aren't.

[Raging Wishbone]

It’s much more J than Scope actually. Do you think I am flying under the radar? When have I flew under the radar as GF?

I don't necassarily think you're doing that intentionally, but it strikes me as odd that I can barely remember any of your actions thus far.

Forgot about Boost this soon?

[SensFan]

Repeat after me. W-I-F-O-M.

...Anyway why would a townie care whether they were the L-1 or the L vote on a wagon? Why would you comment on it to begin with?

No, you repeat after me.

Plays that are bad for any alingment aren't scumtells

. Why would town do this? No idea. Why would scum do this? No idea. Why is scum more likely to do this than town, then? They aren't.

He actually brings up an incredibly valid point.

Why were you willing to be the L-1 vote, but not the hammer?

[Raging Wishbone]

I think I'm gonna let Walt answer this one, since I wasn't.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Repeat after me. W-I-F-O-M.

...Anyway why would a townie care whether they were the L-1 or the L vote on a wagon? Why would you comment on it to begin with?

No, you repeat after me.

Plays that are bad for any alingment aren't scumtells

. Why would town do this? No idea. Why would scum do this? No idea. Why is scum more likely to do this than town, then? They aren't.

He actually brings up an incredibly valid point.

Why were you willing to be the L-1 vote, but not the hammer?

I actually brought up that point first Sens check the top of the page where I said this:

Would I hammer you both now? NO! But I have no problem putting you at l1 after spending half my night defending you

and I will let the rest of the town be the judge of this and who we lynch.

Anyone else besides me think this doesn't make alot of sence. You don't want hammer but you want to vote and or lynch them?

RW's response to that earlier was:

Anyone else besides me think this doesn't make alot of sence. You don't want hammer but you want to vote and or lynch them?

No, this doesn't make sense. And no, that doesn't make it a scumtell.

And yes I would call it a scum tell. You didn't seem fully into your suspicions like they were false or you knew yoswen was scum but were afraid to bus. Basically you didn't seem all that confident in your position. You have had alot of wishywashyness and flops on people.

Vote: RW

[Raging Wishbone]

And yes I would call it a scum tell. You didn't seem fully into your suspicions like they were false or you knew yoswen was scum but were afraid to bus. Basically you didn't seem all that confident in your position. You have had alot of wishywashyness and flops on people.

1. That post was by me (RR), while the play questioned was Walt's. I can't explain a thought proccess that isn't mine, but I wanted to point out scum had no reason to do this.
2. Let's forget for a second that wishywashyness is in general a scumtell. In this particurlar instance, why would scum Walt go out of his way to mention he doesn't want to hammer when putting a L-1 vote on his buddy? What does he stand to gain from this? This play makes the same amount of sense for scum as it does for scum, which is why it's a null tell.