Mini 776: End of the World Zombie Survivors Mafia: Abandoned

[Amished]

In addendum to 1, if you don't quite understand what I mean, if you look back towards where Diamond, hero and SOG were all kinda going back and forth, that's the type of feeling I'm trying to express. Where one way or another there's something that people comment on either being a weaker case or a good point or something.

I never really thought about this game like that before, and I don't know why my instincts pointed me back to then. Another thing to ponder, and therefore another reason to kinda look at Diamond due to my thoughts about his scumlist and the fact that he was in that past argument.

[Amished]

O.o Hi Oozing. Care to share any more thoughts?

[Diamondilium]

Bolded mine.

Diamond, would you say this is a fair representation then of your likely scum? (based off your last two posts)

1) EEM (Scummish in Diamond's words)
2) Hero (Neutral leaning scum)
3) Musher
4) Rishi
5) Oozing
6) Kabennon
7) Dripping
8) Amished
9) semioldguy
10) kieraen
11) Lowell

1) EEM (Scummish in Diamond's words)
2) Hero (Neutral leaning scum)
3) Oozing (When I said he active lurks it was meant to be a point against him)
4) Rishi Musher Kabennon
7) Dripping
8) semioldguy
9) kieraen
10) Amished
11) Lowell

Just going by how you described people, that looks about right if needed to be in a list. One thing that I noticed that seemed like a discrepancy was your view of EEM and kieraen/gateway. You commend Gateway for wanting to give SOG the gun, but attack EEM for the same thing. They both ended up giving it to SOG due to the fact that they thought he was pro-town so I don't really see how the two of them can be that far apart while throwing that as a part of your basis for how scummy they are in your eyes.

Look at the way they approached the situation and their play thereafter; its entirely different. Gateway had the mark of an newb townie very eager to play and get on with the game. EEM on the other hand drew a quick conclusion early on but the rest of his play didn't reflect such behavior. So, yes, their initial moves were the same but that wasn't all there was to analyze.

After seeing the rest of your analysis and seeing that difference, I looked at the rest of your reasons for thinking EEM is scummy and this stood out.

In that same post (post 61), he reiterates his dislike of directing the gun owner and mentions that using the gunshot like an extra lynch gives the scum the chance to orchestrate a mislynch. If he is so afraid of having the scum mislynch, then why wasn't he more cautious with his gun vote since that is effectively giving a player the ability to kill another?

Which I feel to be a weak reason. His stance has always been clear to me about the gun. It has to go to someone, so give it to somebody you think is pro-town. Trust the judgement of said somebody felt to be pro-town, and don't try to tell them what to do as the town as a whole has people lying (scum) and therefore something that should be a pro-town action can turn into a scum action without really knowing. Therefore in my eyes allowing the PR to choose their own action is definitely more pro-town than you make it out to be. It looks like to me as though he's making the one person with the power accountable, and removing chances for the scum *as a whole* (regardless of SOG's alignment, since there's more than 1 scum if SOG happened to be scum) to influence the kill.

Yeah, he wanted to give it to some one pro-town so the scum wouldn't have nearly as much of an influence. The problem here is that he was so quick to decide that Semi was pro-town so early on.

Then after that (below EEM on the list) it seems to me like you're more neutral given that you've unvoted hero as well. After that, it's lurkers that you're neutral on. The lack of suspects is mighty concerning to me, as in my games as scum I've found it hard to pick out scummy actions for people you know to be town. I'm definitely keeping my eye on you.

Semi: What do you think about Diamond's scum list?

Looking back at my arguments against EEM, I noticed something that could be a source of confusion:

evilevilmatt- scummish
After only a 2 posts from Semi that EEM viewed as town, he was already ready to give Semi the gun. As the game progressed, EEM didn't seem as sure about anything else including the lynch. So why was he so willingly so very early on to give the gun to a player, but not so willing lynch early on? EEM's later explanation was that he thought of the same idea of Semi and therefore concluded that Semi was not only logical but townie. In that same post (post 61), he reiterates his dislike of directing the gun owner and mentions that using the gunshot like an extra lynch gives the scum the chance to orchestrate a mislynch. If he is so afraid of having the scum mislynch, then why wasn't he more cautious with his gun vote since that is effectively giving a player the ability to kill another? Later on, he votes Amished saying that he would have done so before, but didn't because agreeing with DGB felt dirty. That is not a good reason to not vote for some one you feel is scummy; this really takes away from the genuineness of your vote.

Anyway, Amished is right about the deadline being close up. I'll go ahead and vote.

Vote: EEM

[semioldguy]

@OozingGolfBall

During the early stages you supported the idea of shooting someone who got to L-1/L-2 but have done absolutely nothing to progress a game state toward that point. It no longer appears realistic that a double lynch with the gun can happen without being rushed. I would have wanted to go by the shooting someone who was built up close to lynch to get two lynches out of the day, but you are one of the players who has done nothing to help make that happen despite the fact that you agreed with the idea to begin with. You have not voted once. You have almost no unique contribution. Your posts all contain very little or often no actual content. You have been actively lurking all game.

Unvote; Vote: OozingGolfBall

**

Aims gun at OozingGolfBall

**

Your next post should contain a claim.

[DrippingGoofball]

I'll be at the airport in 3 hours, but for the record, I wholeheartedly approve of semioldguy's use of his weaponry.

[evilevilmatt]

This is ugly but it should work. Bold is mine.

Notes on EEM's alignment: (I'm borrowing Lowell's + for town, - for scum, and adding = for null-tell.)
His starting posts are speculative and/or buddying. (-)

Do you still disagree with semioldguy being protown? Why is it so hard to think a person would want to locate and empower someone who was being protown. That was the point of the gun voting in the first place.

He earned my vote by refusing to answer a direct question because it was about Lowell ("Do you really want me to answer for Lowell or do you want him to address it himself?" You're the one I asked.) In the meantime, two other players answered it. (-)

I still wouldnt want to answer cases for other players just like I wouldnt expect someone else to answer for this case. I would have been willing to answer for Lowell if thats what you wanted and if others hadnt done so on their own.

Answers the replacement question. Considers Lowell's decision not to respond to a case a scumtell. While I disagree -- I think it's a null-tell, and the only thing that matters is the case and the validity of any defense offered -- I've seen Zazier use this reasoning as town in a marathon game, so this looks townie of him. (+)
Post 188: a peculiar thing to say about DGB, but I don't know what to conclude about it. May hint that DGB is not a scumbuddy of EEM? But then there's the WIFOM... (=)
Post 209: A bit silly. Aggressive, which I'd see as a town-tell, but reprimanding me for being aggressive. The part about Kebanon/Lowell doesn't tell me much about EEM's alignment either, but this post foreshadows a tell that will show up later. (=)
Posts 269-282: The diamond of scum-hunting: knowledge he shouldn't have. He accuses Lowell and me of being scumbuddies, but he calls for only one of us to be killed. If he's town and thinks we're scum together, he should want one of us vigged, and then if that person is scum, he should try to get the other lynched. After all, if he were right, then lynching someone else would be a likely mislynch, whereas the alternative is killing 2 scum. This to me suggests that EEM doesn't even consider it possible that Lowell or I would flip scum if vigged, which is knowledge he shouldn't have unless he's scum. (--)

Vigging Lowell would have been a better plan...

Post 289: Then he names a specific number of scum. He says "probably," but it's still curiously specific. I had to reread the flavor text from page 1, but there's nothing to indicate 3. (-)

1 to 4 ratio is pretty standard I thought. How many do you think there is?

Post 290: Everyone is supposed to be grilled by most other players. (-?)

Indeed (?)

[Herodotus]

Olive, italic, bold is mine.
Sorry, I'm late for work and can't fully respond. Later.

This is ugly but it should work. Bold is mine.

Notes on EEM's alignment: (I'm borrowing Lowell's + for town, - for scum, and adding = for null-tell.)
His starting posts are speculative and/or buddying. (-)

Do you still disagree with semioldguy being protown? Why is it so hard to think a person would want to locate and empower someone who was being protown. That was the point of the gun voting in the first place.

Straw-man.

He earned my vote by refusing to answer a direct question because it was about Lowell ("Do you really want me to answer for Lowell or do you want him to address it himself?" You're the one I asked.) In the meantime, two other players answered it. (-)

I still wouldnt want to answer cases for other players just like I wouldnt expect someone else to answer for this case. I would have been willing to answer for Lowell if thats what you wanted and if others hadnt done so on their own.

I asked you to, and you didn't; that was my point.

Answers the replacement question. Considers Lowell's decision not to respond to a case a scumtell. While I disagree -- I think it's a null-tell, and the only thing that matters is the case and the validity of any defense offered -- I've seen Zazier use this reasoning as town in a marathon game, so this looks townie of him. (+)
Post 188: a peculiar thing to say about DGB, but I don't know what to conclude about it. May hint that DGB is not a scumbuddy of EEM? But then there's the WIFOM... (=)
Post 209: A bit silly. Aggressive, which I'd see as a town-tell, but reprimanding me for being aggressive. The part about Kebanon/Lowell doesn't tell me much about EEM's alignment either, but this post foreshadows a tell that will show up later. (=)
Posts 269-282: The diamond of scum-hunting: knowledge he shouldn't have. He accuses Lowell and me of being scumbuddies, but he calls for only one of us to be killed. If he's town and thinks we're scum together, he should want one of us vigged, and then if that person is scum, he should try to get the other lynched. After all, if he were right, then lynching someone else would be a likely mislynch, whereas the alternative is killing 2 scum. This to me suggests that EEM doesn't even consider it possible that Lowell or I would flip scum if vigged, which is knowledge he shouldn't have unless he's scum. (--)

Vigging Lowell would have been a better plan...

Post 289: Then he names a specific number of scum. He says "probably," but it's still curiously specific. I had to reread the flavor text from page 1, but there's nothing to indicate 3. (-)

1 to 4 ratio is pretty standard I thought. How many do you think there is?

I don't know. Probably between 2 and 5. 3 may be common, but I'd guess that fewer than half of minis have exactly 3.

Post 290: Everyone is supposed to be grilled by most other players. (-?)

Indeed (?)

Yep.

[Rishi]

Caught up in all my games except this one. This will be my top priority the next time I log on.

[evilevilmatt]

Notes on EEM's alignment: (I'm borrowing Lowell's + for town, - for scum, and adding = for null-tell.)
His starting posts are speculative and/or buddying. (-)

Do you still disagree with semioldguy being protown? Why is it so hard to think a person would want to locate and empower someone who was being protown. That was the point of the gun voting in the first place.

Straw-man.

Bite me. Sinse he got the gun I know I'm not alone finding him protown. Sure, I did before anyone else did but wtf man let it go. Now answer the question. Do you think semioldguy is protown or not?

He earned my vote by refusing to answer a direct question because it was about Lowell ("Do you really want me to answer for Lowell or do you want him to address it himself?" You're the one I asked.) In the meantime, two other players answered it. (-)

I still wouldnt want to answer cases for other players just like I wouldnt expect someone else to answer for this case. I would have been willing to answer for Lowell if thats what you wanted and if others hadnt done so on their own.

I asked you to, and you didn't; that was my point.

Its a playstyle arguement. I called you on your case being crap before anyone else did. Once you confirmed you wanted me to instead of Lowell I would have except other people answered for Lowell point for point before I could.

[evilevilmatt]

Then after that (below EEM on the list) it seems to me like you're more neutral given that you've unvoted hero as well. After that, it's lurkers that you're neutral on. The lack of suspects is mighty concerning to me, as in my games as scum I've found it hard to pick out scummy actions for people you know to be town. I'm definitely keeping my eye on you.

This.

[Lowell]

I don't see the EEM case at all, and I'm happy semi decided to wake up and point his gun at someone scummy (even if done in an undemocratic way).

[Amished]

I'm not seeing the EEM case either. EEM had plenty of time to vote for the gun to go somewhere else so clearly throughout the whole process he still thought that SOG was most townie. Just because he thought SOG was townie early on, and then didn't find anything to dissuade him from that stance isn't scummy as many people weren't jumping off the gun going to SOG.

Also, I'm content with a couple people grilling somebody else as long as the questions get answered, and the questions cover what I would ask. I see no need to ask the same question just for the sake of grilling them.

Lowell, you and oozing were the only ones that mentioned that it should be used as another lynch by the town. I think we democratically kinda decided that the gun wouldn't be used democratically.

[Lowell]

Yeah whatever. Either way killing oozing is a good bet.

[Amished]

There you go, SOG thought it was a good bet, you do, and I'm definitely not opposed. Dripping agrees, so that's like 4 people for and 0 against. Seems democratic.... >_>

[Lowell]

semi the more time you waste the less likely it becomes that we get a second lynch in the FOUR DAYS that remain until deadline.

[Amished]

Well, I think it's more of Oozing not coming around, but that's his own problem. If he's lurking under that much pressure (deliberately not posting here/anywhere) or not showing up at deadline time then I say shoot the bum anyways. We really do need to get a move on.

[Lowell]

Let's get musher lynched, then, while we wait.

I'm feeling very good that if oozing and musher die, we're hitting at least one scum. And losing nothing of value.

[evilevilmatt]

Let's get musher lynched, then, while we wait.

I'm feeling very good that if oozing and musher die, we're hitting at least one scum. And losing nothing of value.

This makes sense. I'll get on board here.

unvote
vote:musher

[Amished]

It *would* make sense, except for the last line of the "one shot vig" power that's posted in post #3:

You have a gun, and one bullet. You may point the loaded gun at another survivor during the day, when you are all gathered in the common area, and pull the trigger. This will kill them.

To kill someone, post KILL: PLAYERNAME in the game thread.

This power will not work after a majority of votes to lynch has been placed, even if I haven't counted the votes. It will not work after a deadline to lynch expires.

Bolding mine.

As to musher, while I feel more strongly about a Lowell lynch, I also realize the need to actually lynch somebody during the day, and a lurker isn't as bad a target as somebody I feel more comfortable with. If Musher hits L-1 and SOG has used the vig ability, I'll hammer if need be.

[evilevilmatt]

roger that. Musher should now be at 3 votes. We are not in dangerous territory yet.

[gorckat]

Lynch Count 8

Musher333 (3):

DrippingGoofball, Lowell, levilevilmatt

evilevilmatt (2):

Herodotus, Diamondilium

Lowell (1):

Amished

DrippingGoofball (1):

Musher333

Amished (1):

kabenon007

OozingGolfBall (1):

semioldguy

Not voting (3):

OozingGolfBall, Rishi, Kieraen

Deadline to lynch: Saturday, May 9th, 8 am US east coast time

kabenon007 has been prodded

[Lowell]

I'm not sure what amished is scared of. We have 3+ days left and only 3 votes on the leading candidate. We're much more in danger of a no lynch than a "quicklynch". Amished actions look like obstruction.

[Herodotus]

Notes on EEM's alignment: (I'm borrowing Lowell's + for town, - for scum, and adding = for null-tell.)
His starting posts are speculative and/or buddying. (-)

Do you still disagree with semioldguy being protown? Why is it so hard to think a person would want to locate and empower someone who was being protown. That was the point of the gun voting in the first place.

Straw-man.

Bite me.

This was a straw man argument because I wasn't talking about later impressions of SOG's alignment, I was talking about your first two posts. Which were not based on the actual pro-town things that SOG said later. (such as posts 44 or 87 for example)

Sinse he got the gun I know I'm not alone finding him protown. Sure, I did before anyone else did but wtf man let it go.

You pointed to SOG's first three posts, which were not alignment-tells, and I thought you were basically calling SOG obv-town because of them. It was the "give this guy the gun" thing that made me think you were claiming to be 100% sure, but upon an nth review* that may not have been the case. I still dislike it, but I'll let it go, since I'm not sure how certain you were claiming to be.

* where n is higher than you'd want to know

Now answer the question. Do you think semioldguy is protown or not?

Right now, I'd say SOG is leaning protown. Previously I'd have said protown; the change is at least partly a matter of my earlier intuition subsiding. I haven't considered him worth reviewing in-depth yet; I tend to focus more on the people I have reasons to suspect from mid day 1 through day 2.

He earned my vote by refusing to answer a direct question because it was about Lowell ("Do you really want me to answer for Lowell or do you want him to address it himself?" You're the one I asked.) In the meantime, two other players answered it. (-)

I still wouldnt want to answer cases for other players just like I wouldnt expect someone else to answer for this case. I would have been willing to answer for Lowell if thats what you wanted and if others hadnt done so on their own.

I asked you to, and you didn't; that was my point.

Its a playstyle arguement. I called you on your case being crap before anyone else did. Once you confirmed you wanted me to instead of Lowell I would have except other people answered for Lowell point for point before I could.

All you said was that you didn't agree with it, and you said that after Diamond and Rishi had stated doubts. Considering that my case wasn't crap at all, it's perfectly fair to expect you to back up your disagreement with a reason. Avoiding a direct question is definitely not a "playstyle" issue.

[Amished]

Lowell: I was considering voting for Musher, putting him at L-1. If one scum isn't on the wagon, they could easily hammer and prevent a vig kill. That's what the heck I'm worried about.

[Herodotus]

@Amished: It takes 7 to lynch, 6 after the gun is used. One more vote would be L-3.

Could someone on Musher's wagon or considering joining please state/summarize the case? Is it just a lurker lynch?
Setting aside whether it's actually a good idea, *if* we are really set on killing OGB and Musher, I'd think vigging Musher first would be more convenient for the mod so he can stop searching for a replacement. But that's a big if, obviously.