DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[JDodge]

Whether I am Vig or SK, I still provide an extra kill to the Town every cycle.

I take this as confirmation that you are a SK.

Hammer please before he kills a townie.

I've submitted a kill for this cycle anyways. Don't waste any more posts on my wagon, let me help hunt for the actual Scumgroup.

You will be saying who you targeted now so we can stop wasting our breath and our posts. If your next post does not come within the next 16 hours stating your target, I will be changing our vote over to you.

[Incamnito]

Incamnito, is there a good reason for us to know who he targeted?

Well, we were thinking data-dump from the target before they died.
For instance, if A&B targeted a Cop or a Tracker, then maybe they would want to give us results before they died.

HOWEVER, considering the length of time since he suposedly entered his kill, it seems less likely that it was successful, and obviously we suport the lynch at this time.

-Incog.

[Frog Dodging]

Incamnito, is there a good reason for us to know who he targeted?

Well, we were thinking data-dump from the target before they died.
For instance, if A&B targeted a Cop or a Tracker, then maybe they would want to give us results before they died.

HOWEVER, considering the length of time since he suposedly entered his kill, it seems less likely that it was successful, and obviously we suport the lynch at this time.

-Incog.

It is a bad idea to go forth with a lynch until we get a target from him; there is nothing to lose from waiting in such a game. In other news, it is also sensical to lynch A&B regardless now since a compulsive vig has as high a chance of being a danger to the town as he does being a help.

Actually, at this time we would like to ask A&B to vig themselves in the next action phase. Failure to do so shall result in their lynch. Agreed, everyone?

[whoami8]

Incamnito, is there a good reason for us to know who he targeted?

Well, we were thinking data-dump from the target before they died.
For instance, if A&B targeted a Cop or a Tracker, then maybe they would want to give us results before they died.

HOWEVER, considering the length of time since he suposedly entered his kill, it seems less likely that it was successful, and obviously we suport the lynch at this time.

-Incog.

It is a bad idea to go forth with a lynch until we get a target from him; there is nothing to lose from waiting in such a game. In other news, it is also sensical to lynch A&B regardless now since a compulsive vig has as high a chance of being a danger to the town as he does being a help.

Actually, at this time we would like to ask A&B to vig themselves in the next action phase. Failure to do so shall result in their lynch. Agreed, everyone?

No. We don't have to worry about wasting lynches as in a traditional game. So in letting a probable SK live we are increasing the odds they might extend one last F you on their way out by killing someone that is not themselves before they go down. I agree we need a target claim and a data dump from said player. But I see zero benefit in waiting for A&B to kill themselves (can they do that as SK?)

[SensFan]

I submitted a Frog Dodging kill.

[J-Scope]

Why Frog Dodging? Was this before you had made a second post? You FoS'ed several people but never FrogDodge. You even had this to say about him:

73 - Very nice, concise, post which sums up their views in the past page or so. This is what the Town should strive for all posts to be, in my opinion.

I don't like the fact that you had made a kill before you had made any sign of public scumhunting.

I guess it doesn't matter. We'll either trust you or not when we find out what you are, but this looks like more evidence of scum.

unvote;
Vote: Apples & Banana

[Raging Wishbone]

I think more likely SK, but as long as you kill whoever we tell you to I think we'll be better off keeping you alive for now.

I think that’s a terrible idea. As long as an SK is alive they will try to win as themselves; they can’t win as town. If you think someone is SK you lynch them: no excuses!

Dude, who did we vote for? Read much? We discussed it and agreed it was a terrible idea and vote for A & B!

Thats a lynch I believe, this game is hard to read... but my thoughts so far.

Zaphod = Town (free pass)

Bye A & B, and if he told the truth bye-bye FrogDodge...

Why have their been no scum or SK kills here yet? Any one have an ideas?

[Saunt Adelaus]

I'm drunk so I'll make this brief. A&B is a SK. It is now Twilight. ~Adel

[Raging Wishbone]

I'm drunk so I'll make this brief. A&B is a SK. It is now Twilight. ~Adel

*pinches Santa Claus*

I'm so drunk, I thought that beard on you face in your avi was mistletoe.

Buh-bye A & B.

j/k, lol

[Saunt Adelaus]

Are you used to seeing "Festive" Asians holding mistletoe above their belts or something?

[Raging Wishbone]

Are you used to seeing "Festive" Asians holding mistletoe above their belts or something?

Lol, err, not as a habit.... Mostly, I just can't resist Santa Claus and Goldie locks and finding other peeps who are drunk to play with.

[Raging Wishbone]

Are you used to seeing "Festive" Asians holding mistletoe above their belts or something?

Lol, err, not as a habit.... Mostly, I just can't resist Santa Claus and Goldie locks and finding other peeps who are drunk to play with.

...and actually before my partner permanently divorces me.. these psots between me and you Adel dont count towards the page limit do they? lol We were in twilight?

[Frog Dodging]

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise. Raging Wishbone is quite inefficient at what they're trying to do. Yosariwen is way more downkey than I would expect. Look at them after our death. Sex club is a tad bit quieter than I would like. PTA and ZMD need to die already, especially PTA. Incamnito is one of the people that the town needs to start striving to act like. For someone saying so much about activity and whatnot, Ortohoops is extremely quiet. Death and Trotsky need to start speaking up. I have also heard absolutely nothing from nyball.

As a bit of fair warning, you are all letting this game go by the wayside and die. This game is not about lurking continually and just lackadaisically commenting when you get the chance. Start talking, all of you, or we're going to regret it down the road. You're all so fearful of action phases that you're letting it get to you.

[Frog Dodging]

I still feel that people are essentially treating this game in an inefficient way. Every post should have a purpose beyond the addressing of one particular point or idea, every post should try and contain some amount of contribution from both players - unfortunately, I didn't manage to get online before my other head posted and talk to him, so I have to waste a post here. C'est la vie.

What I really feel is that fluffposting in this game is strongly indicative of scum. There's absolutely no incentive for town to post things like "yeah, that's cool" or so on and so forth. Such behaviour is excusable in the random stage, but we're way past that now.

PTA's posts are just a waste of space. He really is not adding anything to the discussion, just fluff, more fluff, vague agreements with people... anything to avoid comitting to something vaguely resembling an opinion. Take his post 6 - not only is it not internally consistent ("Obv DGB. Protown vibe." => "a slight scummy vibe from DGBHoopla.") but it also gets us no closer to knowing who he wants dead, to eventually deciding on a lynch. It looks like information, but it really isn't.

Neither of them are meaningfully suspicious of anyone right up to the point where tajo calls out A&B as sk, at a time when building consensus is happening that A&B is a good lynch (and he is - we maintain our policy of lynching claimed compulsive vigs in this game. No reason not to, frankly,) - again, a lack of actual scumhunting is apparent. When PF posts it is better, but even then, his posts are mostly attacking logic rather than building any of his own up. Mafia is a constructive enterprise, first and foremost - we are trying to build up enough information to cover the deficit that we have with regards to the scum, so the emphasis should be on making more material, more arguments and more ideas to work with - tearing down is perfectly acceptable pro-town behaviour when you think an argument is wrong, but it should not at all be the only thing you are doing. This is PTA's greatest fault. No real substance.

I think town should be looking for scum from the following group: {ZB, ZMD, Trotsky, PTA, nyballs} That is not to say that these are the only people who can be scum, but they are the only people not ot have given me a pro-town vibe at any point in the game.

[J-Scope]

From the mod's twilight post I took it that Frog wasn't going to die. It's possible there was a protection or a block.

I don't disagree with Frog Dodging's widespread complaint that this game has low contribution and people generally acting quiet.

nyballs: Have you finished reading? Where are you?

Zaphod: Why are your posts so short? That looks more like DGB style than Plum style. Has Plum said much?

PokeAlpaca: Post in your hydra account! Your last official post was April 28. In that post you thought DGB Hoopla was scummy. Based on your PbPa I assume you meant Zaphod (DGB-Plum), but you really need to clarify and elaborate your position on those two separate hydras. I also want to know if both of your heads agree or disagree on this stance.

Yosariwen: Where are you and what are you thinking? Most of your contribution is to say how we should approach this game with a good balance of avoiding fluff and lurking. So what do you think of what's happened in the 5 days since you've been missing?

Dude, who did we vote for? Read much? We discussed it and agreed it was a terrible idea and vote for A & B!

Which is good. I wanted to add my own 2 cents since I've played a game where we debated whether to use an outed SK as a Vig or kill him.

[Trotsky]

"Trotsky" what's your case on Zaphod?

she ignored a superior a+b case in favor of a trotsky vote based on half our complete meta and ignored the subsequent question about it multiple times.

thing is, this was far more valid when we thought a+b was mafia.

and frog dodging is not going to die. it has been 3 days since a+b claimed to have submitted the kill, and the limit is 30 hours. so ragingwishbone, you can stop pretending to care now.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I'm extremely sorry that the Plum half here has been very busy and DGB has been pulling out hydra's weight here in Beta. I'm making a super awesome recap of the entire game thus far.

I think this game should be over by page 31 (3 scumkills),

This seems to imply knowledge of the SK vs. Vig option.

I don't see what benefit that gave - the scum wouldn't have inside knowledge, and I don't see it very much pointing to an SK implying that the second kills each action period aren't SK kills. Any inside knowledge would indicate Vig, so why out this (note that I don't personally think it indicates either; I'm concerned with sex club's thought process here)?

PoketheAlpaca makes a very noticeably useless post:

I agree with everyhting PF has said.
Ill reread later.

Yeah. Especially in this game we're looking for all posts to have substance and useful contribution - extreme post conservation is not necessary and probably not optimal. But avoiding pure fluff is a very good thing, and pure fluff is a pretty bad thing. However, the next post by the pair catches the same concern I had with sex club as noted above.

And you say this without signing your post. And I've already given you my stance. This doesn't cut it.

So, anyway, on that note, I'll add an

FoS: Every post signer

Pesco Light, I understand why you think that signing posts might not be your stuff and why you might think it's not optimal. I don't see you explain, up to that point, why it's so clearly optimal to avoid signing posts and why scum would have a strong motivation to sign their posts that you think this is at all a viable FOS.

Following my train of thought on sex club:

I'm more just wondering where RWishbone cooked up those numbers. And we all know a vig is in the game, the knowledge he displayed would actually suggest he knows there isn't a vig in the game.

If by Vig you mean 'either Vig or SK' it would suggest that one or both of you hasn't read the Mod's first post carefully and deduced that there's definitely one or the other, but not both.

I propose we simply lynch them. Now. And then see what people have to say about that.
Unless they want to try helping the town, that is.

Bit

hasty?

Fuuny how Hoopla/Ort calls Poke's wagon opportunistic and then jumps on the new popular wagon.

Unvote, Vote Ortohoops

Ortohoops' vote was on A&B for gut + a vote that

looked opportunistic

. It's one thought and the train there is straight. It was much less opportunistic-seeming than A&B's - they jumped a wagon with a mere 'I agree with Yosariwen". One hopes for more elaboration, especially in a game where concentration of substance is even more important than usual. Thus I kinda dislike this vote on Ortohoops.

Why has apples and bananas wagon died? Because they decided to try to look like they're playing the game? All they did was agree with Yosariwen's point and hide behind them. Agreeing is fine. Wagoning is fine. No original thinking = scum.

You expect all 12 hydras in the game to all have completely original thoughts on different players by page

TWO

? Its a game where conserving posts is essential, and you're trying to say I'm Scum for not having said much by page TWO?

You might have elaborated, mentioned other things which had caught your eye, looked worthy of comment and/or shady. It'll be my mantra: "Not conservation of posts! Consistent concentration of substance!" So yeah, basically, I am seeing A&B as fairly scummy by this point.

Now, I did vote Hogfather... but I don't recall saying it was for only 1 post. I don't like his tone, and I don't like this so-called "character" he is using. In this thread OR in the sign-up thread.

If he was using the character in the signup thread it's iobviously not indicative of alignment, especially puttering about the RVS. What about his "tone" pinged your scumdar (or was it unidentifiable gut matter?)? It seems DGB likes you at this point, but I'm less certain right now; my eyes aren't exactly imploding, if you get my drift.

I am willing to hammer A&B if the claim is unsatisfactory. My second head agrees.

Absolutely.

68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Unvote, Vote: Ortohoops

He explains why scum, while they have a moderate motivation to spam with fluff posts they have at least as much to make sure not to

blatantly

post fluff (bringing the far-off recharge closer by a tiny bit versus not drawing undue attention to themselves and not looking like hypocrites when they jump on townies who've done it). Ortohoops' thought process doesn't look scummy (I'm not sure I entirely agree, however) and does not in any way seem to indicate inside knowledge of scum tactics over the far more likely application of decent reason and deduction. Vote reeks. Also, why no claim? You're going to be wasting our time here . . .

Another refusal to claim? Scum determined to make us use as many posts as we're willing to before going off and dying? HOUSTON ALL SYSTEMS ARE GO.

Whether I am Vig or SK, I still provide an extra kill to the Town every cycle.

Beep beep beep. This sort of argument, whether made by town or scum, always seems to make me want to pull out my own wisdom teeth. Luckily they're already gone.

Whether I am Vig or SK, I still provide an extra kill to the Town every cycle.

I take this as confirmation that you are a SK.

Hammer please before he kills a townie.

I've submitted a kill for this cycle anyways. Don't waste any more posts on my wagon, let me help hunt for the actual Scumgroup.

Yeah, you confirmed DGB's thought right there.

Zaphod = Town (free pass)

For a lot of this game I seem to recall you saying you weren't comfortable with us on a gut level. Why the mind change?

Caught the SK; excellent. Now I need to go back for more tells and analysis. Grrr .

Zaphod: Why are your posts so short? That looks more like DGB style than Plum style. Has Plum said much?

No, Plum hasn't, and she apologizes profusely and promises to pick up the slack, as above.

PoketheAlpaca: No votes in the game besides the random ones. First actual scumhunt-related point comes in his Post 4, and it's not discussed in much depth, either. Next post is longer and ostensibly more substantial, but all we come out with is "Oh, not much to discuss except I have a few under-explained vibes".

Vote: PoketheAlpaca

[Saunt Adelaus]

F.Y.I. Twilight will last until post 156.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Hi, sorry for the delay, this game is harder to read than the other. I also gave alpha more attention because timing is more critical over there.

I have not discussed this with Kison yet and I kept postponing to make one big post with review of everyone but I decided not to because I don't have firm reads yet. So, the one thing I feel strongly about now.

I think this post is scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1655435

It reeks of scum glee at having found vig/sk:
a) shows less than passing concern for AB's alignment
b) the way he ask for Zaphod's kill looks like scum seeing a great opportunity at augmenting the bodies count

To this I add that I don't see the case on Zaphod and don't like the way trostky has been pushing it. Plus, I don't think DGB is cynical enough to use emotional blackmail as scum to get out of trouble, so my read of her is town at the moment.

Vote trotsky

[Saunt Adelaus]

Does this game need a kick in the ass? I'm more than happy to prod people, so long as you specifically request it in the thread.

[Death the Hogfather]

Grr. This game is practically unapproachable for me right now. I don't want to move forward without some input from Seraphim, but he's still V/LA. At the same time, I don't want to lurk around while I wait for him to come back.

The only suspect I have right now is pokethealpaca, for the same reason as I suspected A&B, but I don't want to place a vote without confirmation that Seraphim is on board as well.

Apologies. Hopefully Seraphim will be back soon. When he is, I'll make sure we get a solid analysis of all of the players posted.

[Raging Wishbone]

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise. Raging Wishbone is quite inefficient at what they're trying to do. Yosariwen is way more downkey than I would expect. Look at them after our death. Sex club is a tad bit quieter than I would like. PTA and ZMD need to die already, especially PTA. Incamnito is one of the people that the town needs to start striving to act like. For someone saying so much about activity and whatnot, Ortohoops is extremely quiet. Death and Trotsky need to start speaking up. I have also heard absolutely nothing from nyball

Dude are you sure i'm not? j/k, lol... Why are you still alive by the way?

Does this game need a kick in the ass? I'm more than happy to prod people, so long as you specifically request it in the thread.

Yes please prod: zmd, poka, and hoops. Thanks.

Zaphod = Town (free pass)

For a lot of this game I seem to recall you saying you weren't comfortable with us on a gut level. Why the mind change?

Caught the SK; excellent. Now I need to go back for more tells and analysis. Grrr .

Actually it was RR who posted suspicions of you and it'ts me who wants to confirm you town. I kinda just wanted to see how you responded... Can I ask you an ethics question, would you feel comfortable winning as scum after DGB's post?

[Saunt Adelaus]

Zmd;PoketheAlpaca;Ortohoops have been prodded

[Zmd]

Prodded. Will catch up tonight or tomorrow.

[Ortohoops]

We got prodded.

Hi, sorry for the delay, this game is harder to read than the other. I also gave alpha more attention because timing is more critical over there.

same.

PTA is

extremely

scummy. His first two posts are ok but when you get to page 2 he starts to get really scummy.

Post 28- contentless.

Post 46 is alright, but 48 on the same page is again, totally contentless, after he's already come under fire multiple times for making useless posts.

Post 50 is PBPA. I usually find these completely useless and irritating to read when they're done without quotes. I additionally dislike this post because it's mostly IIoA- largely a description of the posts rather than analysis or an expression of an attitude towards the relevant players. Additionally, he fails to reach any meaningful conclusion, saying

Not much to analyse here other than I have a town vibe coming from Trostsky, RRBone, Jscope. Others are neutrals and a slight scummy vibe from DGBHoopla.

So his scummiest is us with a "slight scummy vibe" (which is

not

well explained by his above PBPA ~edit: it seems he confused the two hydras Zaphod and Ortohoops).

He doesn't take a strong stand on anyone and fails to change his vote from the random phase, which is ironic because it's still

on

Trotsky, the very player he criticised someone else (Zaphod) for voting in his PBPA.

If Incamnito was any more town, my eyes would implode.

I know what you're saying about A&B, but for these hydras I do not have yet enough information to get a read, and I'm confident I will be able to get a read eventually.

With the Swine Flu going around... this is definitely a lurker I want to rattle.

vote: Death the Hogfather

*DGB*

If you don't have a read, don't post and or waste your vote.

Random stage over.

Unvote: Trotsky

To quote Frog Dodging, MAJOR HYPOCRISY ALERT.

For reference the hallmark of scum in another "posting dependent" game, RealTime Mafia - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9865 - was hypocrisy in accusing others of "wasting words". The mechanic was number of words posted rather than number of posts, but I think it's analogous. PTA continues to fit the profile of scum.

I also dislike you, in the above quote, unvoting Trotsky before you find a new target to vote (when he was not in danger of being lynched). It reeks of scum trying to feign gradually changing their mind as town.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite.

We apologise, we will vote the post-wasting scum now.

Unvote
Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

On another note:

I think more likely SK, but as long as you kill whoever we tell you to I think we'll be better off keeping you alive for now.

Unvote, vote Zaphod

. Something still feels off to me about DGB's play here, and it's more than being generally bummed.

Note: any player who's next post isn't counterclaiming Sens has effectively said he won't be.

-RR

This post is actually incorrect, because sex w/ shafted's wife club later makes the point that we don't really need a vig/SK to make extra kills because we can make as many lynches as we like as long as we don't post too much to do it. However, the fact RW was happy to let a claimed vig/SK live very strongly suggests to me he is town. Scum do

not

want extra killing roles alive.

We (I) I also dislike the above largely useless post of Death The Hogfather, but even more so that of Zmd, who has apparently still not realised why making useless posts like "hehe just responding to my prod" might be anti-town.