MKM II GAME OVER


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Post Post #1325 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 4:11 am

Post by Moratorium »

Opinion noted.

Vote Zwets. It's therapeutic.


Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-zwetschenwasser (5): AceMarksman, caf19, Moratorium, Gorrad, Empking
-populartajo (3): zwetschenwasser, ortolan, Riceballtail
-ThAdmiral (2): Kast, populartajo
-Gorrad (1): WeyounsLastClone
-caf19 (1): sirdanilot

Not voting (4): killa seven, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral, semioldguy

With 16 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.
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Post Post #1326 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 4:14 am

Post by ortolan »

I'm playing to my wincon, not tajo's
Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529

Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.
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Post Post #1327 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 4:35 am

Post by sirdanilot »

ortolan wrote:you guys are lazy, you think scum will jump in your lap and you'll win by making incredibly obvious and incorrect lynches.
YES
That said, I find it appalling how you, your big friend Tajo, and many many other people completely ignore caf and my case on him. Especially the ones who kept pressing for me contributing. I'm sick of absurdly scummy people still posting their bullshit in this game. Let's lynch some scum already. They are right there in front of your eyes!
caf19 wrote:
sirdanilot wrote:
caf19 wrote:I'm still
generally
up for a zwet lynch,
but if support for it is waning then I'll have to look at other options.
Reread time.
Good use of unexplained bolding. (1)I assume you're implying that I'm scummy for just going along with other people's opinions. (2)If that's the case, I don't really care if you think it's scummy. (3)That post is exactly how I felt at the time. I've been focusing on zwet and if I can't get him lynched then I'll have to widen the search.
1. Oui/Yes/Sí/Ja . And how you're
generally
up for a zwet lynch. Keeping all options open. As if you weren't looking for other people while the zwet thing was still popular opinion. In fact I have no reason not to believe the latter, since you're probably scum who don't have to scumhunt by definition.
2. Refusal to defend yourself will unfortunately not help you here. It looks like you aren't able to defend yourself. Pro-tip: defending yourself is pro-town.
3. I think that a reread is in order to address this since I think it would be very interesting to find out who you 'suspected' before all this.
sirdanilot wrote:I'll reread this guy some time. He seems to fall in the same category as WLC, as well as quints on day 1 (now flipped scum). Posting reasonably regularly, although not ubiquitous, and posting content as well as scummy things like these. Short periods of absence are common.
How is any of this a scumtell? :?
It isn't, it's a description of your 'player category'. It's not a scum tell per se, but it's the manner of posting that would perfectly suit a person of antagonistic alignment such as yourself. I do not suspect you for having it, but I still like to point it out.
sirdanilot wrote:lol blatant zwet lynch push. wiffle waffle I am sitting comfortably on my fence.
I was voting zwet at the time (still am) and it's fairly obvious I wanted him lynched. What kind of a fence is that?
Here:
caf19 wrote:Ok, zwet's claim didn't present us with any huge
reasons not to lynch
him.

His claim
wasn't a huge disaster
but is weak and nebulous enough that it
could
easily have come from scum. The fire-resistance seems to fit flavour-wise, but obviously scum would know their own killing methods. It's something that
could have been fabricated

without too much trouble.

Then again, the nagging voice in the back of my head tells me that for a zwetclaim, 'not a disaster' is probably the best thing you're going to get...


ort, how certain exactly does your info make you that zwet is town?
The purpose of pressuring and claiming (something which I think shouldn't have hapened at the time but that aside) is to show if someone is scum. The fact that zwet is not a confirmed towny doesn't give you any reasons
to
lynch him. (insert rant about why the english language doesn't support trivial dutch words like 'wel' rendering me unable to express exactly what I meant and having me resort to things like bolding blablabla)
Since his claim 'wasn't a huge disaster'. Your main point is basically, 'it
could
have come from scum' and 'scum could have fabricated it'. All in all, not more than you know of a normal person who hasn't claimed yet.

All this isn't that bad per se. You are not scummy for pointing out that the claim wasn't decisive of zwet's alignment one way or another. But you
are
scummy for wanting to lynch him solely because of that, while it is no reason to lynch zwet! You can now only lynch zwet if you have additional reasons. For example role related reasons of other people, and play style elements etc. For the former, we haven't really had anything conclusive, since gorrad says he's scum and ort says he's town, with neither of them providing reasons, and I haven't seen you give a convincing play style based case on zwet. But as I said I need to reread you.
sirdanilot wrote: In his last line he is doing something we could interpret as rolefishing but maybe that would be just a
tiny bit
too fast...
It's not rolefishing when you consider that at the time, there were people who were just flat out asking ortolan to reveal his roleinfo. This was a more useful and less potentially anti-town approach.
What would you have done if the answer was 'very certain'? What if it was 'probably'? Wouldn't that information be potentially helpful to the scum? Oh whoops that's you.
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Post Post #1328 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 5:11 am

Post by Moratorium »

@sirdanilot:

I've yet to hear your opinion of zwets, I'm just seeing your opinion of other people's opinion of zwets.

- What do you know of zwetschenwasser's playstyle?
- What do you think of zwetschenwasser's play during this game vs. his normal playstyle?
- Do you believe zwetschenwasser is a) heavily scum, b) leaning scum, c) leaning town or d) heavily town. I've omitted any Neutral or No-read option on purpose.
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Post Post #1329 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 5:15 am

Post by caf19 »

sirdanilot wrote:1. Oui/Yes/Sí/Ja . And how you're generally up for a zwet lynch. Keeping all options open. As if you weren't looking for other people while the zwet thing was still popular opinion. In fact I have no reason not to believe the latter, since you're probably scum who don't have to scumhunt by definition.
I'm not interested in 'keeping my options open'. Case in point: I've stated my distaste for the wagon on tajo (who is the other common object of suspicion today).
sirdanilot wrote:2. Refusal to defend yourself will unfortunately not help you here. It looks like you aren't able to defend yourself. Pro-tip: defending yourself is pro-town.
3. I think that a reread is in order to address this since I think it would be very interesting to find out who you 'suspected' before all this.
A general summary: yesterday Looker was my main suspect and he got my vote. Now that line has kind of died due to Looker not posting and being replaced - there's nothing there to analyse or interact with. As you can see from my post 991, Looker and zwet were my suspects, but the disappearance of Looker led the bulk of my posting to be focused on zwet. Given that my focus had narrowed down like that, it felt natural to try to widen it again.
sirdanilot wrote:The purpose of pressuring and claiming (something which I think shouldn't have hapened at the time but that aside) is to show if someone is scum. The fact that zwet is not a confirmed towny doesn't give you any reasons to lynch him. (insert rant about why the english language doesn't support trivial dutch words like 'wel' rendering me unable to express exactly what I meant and having me resort to things like bolding blablabla)
Since his claim 'wasn't a huge disaster'. Your main point is basically, 'it could have come from scum' and 'scum could have fabricated it'. All in all, not more than you know of a normal person who hasn't claimed yet.

All this isn't that bad per se. You are not scummy for pointing out that the claim wasn't decisive of zwet's alignment one way or another. But you are scummy for wanting to lynch him
solely
because of that, while it is no reason to lynch zwet!
You can now only lynch zwet if you have additional reasons.
For example role related reasons of other people, and play style elements etc. For the former, we haven't really had anything conclusive, since gorrad says he's scum and ort says he's town, with neither of them providing reasons, and I haven't seen you give a convincing play style based case on zwet. But as I said I need to reread you.
[bolding mine]

Fail. Please see my posts 991, 1052, 1084 etc. for places where I build up several reasons to lynch zwet which have nothing to do with his claim (he hadn't claimed at that point). At this point, zwet seems overwhelmingly scum to me, so his claim should only convince me to unvote if it contains strong info that indicates town alignment. As it was, his claim was quite weak and could easily have been invented. Why should I back off solely due to that?
sirdanilot wrote:What would you have done if the answer was 'very certain'? What if it was 'probably'? Wouldn't that information be potentially helpful to the scum? Oh whoops that's you.
Not as helpful to them as ortolan fully revealing his role-related info. As it happened, it now seems to me that ort doesn't have any more info than I do and he is just forming different conclusions from it. So, no problem.

So, sirdan, do you think zwet is scum or not? (preview edit: Mora asked more or less the same question. Get answerin'.)
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Post Post #1330 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 7:47 am

Post by Lawrencelot »

"Hey, I'm counting 17 people!" "Huh, me too, I thought there were 16 of us?" "Hi guys, I'm millar13" says a new voice. Where he comes from is a mystery.


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Post Post #1331 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 8:19 am

Post by Moratorium »

millar13, please paraphrase whatever game entrance flavor you received from the mod to us.
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Post Post #1332 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 8:30 am

Post by millar13 »

Moratorium wrote:millar13, please paraphrase whatever game entrance flavor you received from the mod to us.
What does that mean?
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Post Post #1333 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 8:36 am

Post by Moratorium »

Did you receive anything from the mod that generally describes your entrance into this game? Not your role or abilities or whatever, just the flavor text that describes how you came to be here?

If so, please paraphrase it.
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Post Post #1334 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 8:40 am

Post by populartajo »

Also I think that millar should paraphrase his win condition before he even has a chance to reread the game.
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Post Post #1335 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 8:46 am

Post by AceMarksman »

I think TheAdmiral should paraphrase his win condition before he reads as well.
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Post Post #1336 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 8:47 am

Post by populartajo »

AceMarksman wrote:I think TheAdmiral should paraphrase his win condition before he reads as well.
Agreed.
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Post Post #1337 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 8:52 am

Post by sirdanilot »

Moratorium wrote:@sirdanilot:

I've yet to hear your opinion of zwets, I'm just seeing your opinion of other people's opinion of zwets.

- What do you know of zwetschenwasser's playstyle?
- What do you think of zwetschenwasser's play during this game vs. his normal playstyle?
- Do you believe zwetschenwasser is a) heavily scum, b) leaning scum, c) leaning town or d) heavily town. I've omitted any Neutral or No-read option on purpose.
Zwet's playstyle is generally jumpy and unhelpful, but I only have limited meta (sushi mafia, and there was very little overlap between him replacing in and me dieing) He is a very easy target for scum, but my meta with him is solely one in which I was scum. It seems that he was first town but then joined another scum faction or something, haven't thoroughly read the end game post yet. Thing is I just don't get a scummy vibe
at all
. At least he
tries
to contribute. He
thinks
he is right. I would have to read a couple of games of his to compare playstyles, something I won't do since it's not only too much effort but also because I don't really believe in meta as such.

I will get to caf later on.
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Post Post #1338 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 9:10 am

Post by populartajo »

Its also funny how ortolan attacks me for going against easy targets (Looker and zwet) when Looker is also suspected by Kast and zwet is having a nice wagon against him.
ort wrote:And I already clarified exactly why I believed zwet's claim, so unless you want another gone fishin' jpeg I think we can steer the conversation away from that topic.
No, show me please. You HAVENT clarified exactly why you believe zwet claim and you have someone (Gorrad) going against your opinion also with apparent information.
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Post Post #1339 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 9:12 am

Post by populartajo »

Sirdan, I also dont think caf is scum. His reasoning is very similar to mine.

What are your thougts of ort and Looker?
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Post Post #1340 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 9:17 am

Post by semioldguy »

populartajo wrote:Sirdan, I also dont think caf is scum. His reasoning is very similar to mine.
Why is having reasoning similar to your own a reason for not being scum?
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Post Post #1341 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 9:23 am

Post by populartajo »

semioldguy wrote:
populartajo wrote:Sirdan, I also dont think caf is scum. His reasoning is very similar to mine.
Why is having reasoning similar to your own a reason for not being scum?
Because in some situation we have come to very similar conclusions. I know Im town and I know how I came to those conclusions so that indicates (not 100% obv) that caf is going through the same reasoning process.
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Post Post #1342 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 9:23 am

Post by populartajo »

I forgot to ask this:

ortl, you also think Looker is town?
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Post Post #1343 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 9:30 am

Post by Moratorium »

tajo wrote: Because in some situation we have come to very similar conclusions. I know Im town and I know how I came to those conclusions so that indicates (not 100% obv) that caf is going through the same reasoning process.
And this can't be faked?
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Post Post #1344 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 9:36 am

Post by populartajo »

Moratorium wrote:
tajo wrote: Because in some situation we have come to very similar conclusions. I know Im town and I know how I came to those conclusions so that indicates (not 100% obv) that caf is going through the same reasoning process.
And this can't be faked?
I agree it can be faked. Thats why the obv not 100% is there.

The question is if it is easy to fake.

I doubt it.
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Post Post #1345 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 11:51 am

Post by zwetschenwasser »

Millar, who do you win with?
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Post Post #1346 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 12:18 pm

Post by Kast »

Too much stuff to go over. Not fully caught up but out of time for this (skimmed most of it nothing jumped out immediately). Here's my thoughts so far (doesn't address the latest page of posts).

Have a good weekend all.

*******
Lots of nulltells being thrown around...
*******
@Gorrad-
Agreeing with Tajo's list should have little to no bearing on his affiliation. You both agree that the active players are probably town, and the inactive players are either scum or neutral. This is a pretty safe and normal position for scum to take, particularly as it lets them blend in with the active townies.

The divergences that you both have taken are:
Tajo:
-Ort scum even though he is active
-WLC town even though isn't very active
Gorrad:
-Mora scum even though he is active
-Ort scum even though he is active
If either of you turn out to be scum, this should be noted.


@Ort-
-Asking for claims pre-maturely is anti-town but not inherently scummy.
-Lurkerhunting by itself is a nulltell. Tajo isn't tunnelling on lurkerhunts or forcing others to do so.

@Sirdanilot-
Wth?
-Regularly posting reasons and content are not scumtells.
-Being open to lynch other players if your top choice has no chance of success is a null tell, but generally I'd call it a pro-town attitude. Lynching, even mislynching, beats a no lynch. It is far better to get your number 2 or 3 lynched than to insist on number 1 and end up in either no lynch or lynch of someone you think is a townie.
-Short periods of absence happen to everyone. It's called life. Major null tell.

-In my books, Ace is 95% non-MK. If you still suspect him despite admitting his critical role in nailing SK, then present that case.

@Sirdanilot-
-Looker being replaced does not excuse his player slot from being suspicious. I agree that we should not lynch prior to his replacement coming in, but nobody has suggested that.

@Tajo-
He thinks you are basing your suspicions on BS. You disagree with his assessment of whether they are BS, but that shouldn't stop you from seeing his argument.

Ort is making some valid arguments; he is also using some invalid ones.
ie His "if A then B" is true, but you disagree on whether A is true or not


@RBT-
Tajo didn't misuse the term OMGUS. He explained that he feels he has valid reasons to vote/suspect Ort. It is nearly impossible for most people to completely separate their beliefs/suspicions from their personal circumstances, and Tajo appears to be no exception. He is probably mistaken and there probably is some OMGUS driving his suspicion of Ort. But he is correct that his vote is not only OMGUS. How is this scummy anyway?


***********
@Gorrad-
If you think Ort is scum, why would you be upset with his lynch? I don't see how that makes any sense for a townie.

@Sirdanilot-
Someone said Law is your brother. Do you know him well enough to guess how he might think?

Do you know what Mario games he is most familiar with?

Particularly, do you know if he played the original SMB, SMB3, any Paper Mario games?

@Sirdanilot-
If you are going to be lynched, then it is better to name/role claim prior to getting lynched.

Normally this is a no-brainer since getting lynched has the same negative aspect as claiming plus one dead townie.
Get lynched:
-One dead townie
-Scum learn town information to better plan their actions, craft fake-claims, etc
Claim:
-Scum learn town information to better plan their actions, craft fake-claims, etc

In our game it is different.
Get lynched:
-One dead townie
Claim:
-Scum learn town information to better plan their actions, craft fake-claims, etc

Depending on your role, it is possible that conventional wisdom (claiming prior to being lynched), is not the best thing to do.

@WLC-
I also laughed at Zwet's comment. But then I decided to write a meaningful post. I suggest you do the same.

@RBT-
Please post more and stop tunneling only on Tajo.
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Post Post #1347 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 12:26 pm

Post by Gorrad »

1) Actually, I disagree. I've found that active townies are significantly more likely to be mistaken for scum, as they are prominant in people's minds. This is why common theory says that scum lurk: to go below the radar. Active townies are very on the radar, and therefore more likely to be thought scum.

2) I would be upset to see him lynched because, while I do think him scum, he actually posts, contributes significantly, analyses, etc. If he's town, his lynch would be a significantly bigger loss than that of Zwet.
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Post Post #1348 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 12:57 pm

Post by AceMarksman »

kast wrote:-In my books, Ace is 95% non-MK. If you still suspect him despite admitting his critical role in nailing SK, then present that case.
^this. Seriously doubting that sir is BA at the moment.
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Post Post #1349 (ISO) » Fri May 15, 2009 1:15 pm

Post by ThAdmiral »

due to the request my win con is that I win when there is only mushroom kingdom left.
If you have any other pertinent questions ask and I will answer to the best of my abilities.

Now i've got quite a bit of reading to do!
Don't ask me to provide self meta
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