How to detect a liar

[Xylthixlm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/scien ... g.html?hpw

Interesting story about how new science is helping cops detect liars by looking at what they actually say. May contain a few tips that will help your mafia play, too.

[alexhans]

This sure looked interesting but I still haven't made time to properly look at it. I'll comment when I do.

[SensFan]

This looks most relevant to asking for flavour details to crack fakeclaims, in the context of Mafia.

Having said that, I think a large part of the reasons liars don't give as many details is it is

very

hard to remember all the details you say, if you're lying. This is diminished here, since you can easily reference your previous posts.

[Nuwen]

The problems most people have with lying stem from one cause: they know whatever they're saying is untrue. This discrepancy leads to event confusion, detail disorientation, or an overall surreality that's unbelievable even by the person lying.

If you don't believe your own lie, why expect anyone else to?

Cognitive dissonance is essential to building any lie more complex than "the dog did it, sorry."

[JDodge]

The best way to lie is to delude yourself into thinking what you're saying is the truth.

That

is an important skill for mafia.

[gorckat]

The best way to lie is to delude yourself into thinking what you're saying is the truth.

That

is an important skill for mafia.

This. Believe.

Be

the townie...you

are

the townie...

townie

...

townie

...

[alexhans]

The best way to lie is to delude yourself into thinking what you're saying is the truth.

That

is an important skill for mafia.

This. Believe.

Be

the townie...you

are

the townie...

townie

...

townie

...

Yeah... the problem is when you find yourself trying to scumhunt and feel that everyone is town but you dont know why... Being careful of not making a evidently fake case that maybe you would do unknowingly as town.

[gorckat]

If you can't find something scummy enough to at least

start

a case with then you haven't looked hard enough. There's

always

something somewhere to start with.

If everyone in town truly looks so townie that cases can't be started, then you're either obvscum and will be dead soon, or you just need to let everyone stand around twiddling thumbs until action gets forced and people jump on it.

[Aranfan]

The best way to lie is to delude yourself into thinking what you're saying is the truth.

That

is an important skill for mafia.

So, Double-Think?

[Xylthixlm]

The best way to lie is to delude yourself into thinking what you're saying is the truth.

That

is an important skill for mafia.

It's also heavily used by politicians. ("I didn't need to report that chair as a gift because it was just a long-term loan.")

The good news is, people who succeed in this get a whole new set of tells, if you learn to recognize them.

[Kublai Khan]

Oddly, this is the first thing that popped in my head:

Mr. Orange:

This is a very weird situation. 'Cause I don't know if you remember back in '86 there was a major fucking drought. Nobody had anything. People were living on resin... -smoking the wood in their pipes for months. This chick had a bunch. And she's begging me to sell it. So I told her I wasn't going to be Joe the potman anymore, but I would take a little bit and sell it to my close, close, close friends. She agreed to that, said we'd keep the same arrangement as before; 10%, free pot for me, as long as I helped her out that weekend. She had a brick of weed she was selling, she didn't want to go to the buy alone. Her brother usually goes with her, but he's in county unexpectedly.

Mr. White:

What for?

Mr. Orange:

His traffic tickets. Got a warrant. They stopped him for something, found warrants on him, took him to county. Now she doesn't walk around alone with all that weed. I don't want to do this. I have a very bad feeling about it. But she keeps asking me, keeps asking me, keeps asking me, finally I said OK 'cause I'm sick of hearing it. Now, we're picking the guy up at the train station...

Nice Guy Eddie:

Wait a minute. You go to the train station to pick up the buyer with the weed on you?

Mr. Orange:

The guy needed it right away. Don't ask me why. Anyway, we're get to the station and we're waiting for the guy. I'm carrying the weed in one of those little carry-on bags. I got to take a piss. So I tell the connection I'll be right back, I'm going to the boys' room. So I walk in the mens' room, and who's standing there? Four Los Angeles county sheriffs and a German shepherd.

Nice Guy Eddie:

They're waiting for you?

Mr. Orange:

No, they're just a bunch of cops hanging out in the men's room, talking. When I walked through the door, they all stopped what they were talking about and they looked at me.

Mr. White:

[laughs] That's hard, man. That's a fucking hard situation.

Mr. Orange:

German shepherd starts barking. He's barking at me. I mean, it's obvious. He's barking at me. Every nerve-ending, all my senses, blood in my veins, everything I have is screaming, "Take off, man! Just bail, just get the fuck out of there!" Panic hits me like a bucket of water. First there's the shock of it... -BAM!... -right in the face. I'm standing there drenched in panic. All these sheriffs looking at me, and they know, man. They can smell it. Sure as that fucking dog can, they can smell it on me.

Hmm.. Has anyone made a Reservoir Dogs Mafia?

[The Fonz]

People really do need to grill claimed PRs on the thought process behind their chosen actions a lot more thoroughly. Of course, some genuine town PRs just do choose really stupid targets.

[Xylthixlm]

People really do need to grill claimed PRs on the thought process behind their chosen actions a lot more thoroughly. Of course, some genuine town PRs just do choose really stupid targets.

My favorite is "I'm not going to tell you why I chose my targets because that would help the scum guess who I'll target next".

[ortolan]

I liked when zwet claimed he'd entirely forgotten all his night action choices in Prisoner's Dilemma.

He was promptly dayvigged; flipped town and we got endgamed

[ortolan]

I agree with J-Dodge though, the best way of convincing other people of something is convincing oneself.

[Xylthixlm]

I liked when zwet claimed he'd entirely forgotten all his night action choices in Prisoner's Dilemma.

He was promptly dayvigged; flipped town and we got endgamed

It's harder to remember them if you're in 10 different games. Just another reason not to play in lots of games at once.

[PokerFace]

I am an actor in my spare time. Lieing or appearing to be someone I'm not, is what I do.

[zwetschenwasser]

The best way to lie is to delude yourself into thinking what you're saying is the truth.

That

is an important skill for mafia.

So, Double-Think?

YES!!! I'm starting a doomsday british literature discussion thread in GD right now!

[Aranfan]

Heh, someone should do a 1984 themed game.

[zwetschenwasser]

*CLAIMS RIGHT TO DO A 1984 MINI THEME*

[Kmd4390]

The best way to lie is to delude yourself into thinking what you're saying is the truth.

That

is an important skill for mafia.

I use this in mafia.

If I didn't have buddies whose alignment I know, sometimes I think I'd forget I'm scum. I even convince myself, as scum, that the player I'm attacking is scum. I even did it in a Newbie game (Obviously no 2nd scum group there) once.

[Xylthixlm]

Even if you convince yourself you're town, you'll still give off tons of tells (mostly related to the fact that you have more info). You also have to manage a false role claim, which generally requires some conscious deceit. And if you dare, you can try to subtly nudge the game in a direction that's good for you. You end up with layers of behavior and

lots

of doublethink.


Convince yourself you're town and actually scumhunting. Come up with a fake role and convince yourself you have it.
But, keep evaluating your fake claim, so you won't be backed into a corner later.
Don't forget that some of the info you have, you shouldn't have - you need to pretend not to know that stuff.
Also try to nudge the town in a bad direction if you think you can do it without risk.
Now keep an eye out for all the tells you give off while doing all that, and consciously avoid them.
You're doing all that for town reasons, right? Rationalize it and convince yourself!
But watch out for the tells that will let someone know you're rationalizing...


The good news is most people can't really pull off the whole stack at once as scum, so they give off tons of tells. The bad news is that which tells they give off really depend on how much of the stack they're doing.

[alexhans]

I really don't think that you should lie to yourself that way.

You definetly are in a different position. There's gonna be some inconsistencies. You HAVE to be able to deal with them. And that's only possible if you analize your role.

You have to play as you would if you were town. But you are gonna have to keep in mind youre not so certain things must be analized beforehand.

[Mr. Flay]

Hmm.. Has anyone made a Reservoir Dogs Mafia?

Yep. Undercover cops were the scum; they got beaten pretty handily through some random chance and good play overall by the other side.

Link's on my wiki page.

[Claus]

Yeah... the problem is when you find yourself trying to scumhunt and feel that everyone is town but you dont know why...

You really have this problem? There are always legitimate reasons to call at least half of the players in any game scummy.