Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[Korts]

Can I have a summary of charter's claim and reasons why people think it is true? I can't remember.

still waiting on this

charter is a mason recruiter, which he proved by recruiting Izzy before her lynch. After her lynch she flipped "Vanilla Townie + Mason" therefore charter is pretty much cleared.

vote: Green Crayons

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Page 39 Votecount

charter (0/4):
Green Crayons(2/4): Incognito, Korts
Incognito (0/4):
Korts (0/4):
Patrick (0/4):
Xdaamno (2/4): Green Crayons, charter

Not voting (2/6):

Patrick, Xdaamno,

With 6 alive, it's 4 to lynch.
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Countdown To Deadline

[Xdaamno]

Then it's between Patrick and GC for me. GC's jump to push my lynch as soon as he came under fire is obviously suspiscious, but his continued use of illogical arguments make me doubt the possibility he was just attacking me to make himself look town, yet unreliable. If that's not the reason for his attacks, I would guess it was being angry at me, which is a town-tell (I don't think I've been scummy at all lately, yet he's still pushing).

Those are just speculations, and are minor tells, though, imo. I'm still not sure which of them to pick.

[Green Crayons]

GC's jump to push my lynch as soon as he came under fire is obviously suspiscious, but his continued use of illogical arguments make me doubt the possibility he was just attacking me to make himself look town, yet unreliable.

I've been attacking your scummy ass from Day One. You fail at legitimacy.

[Xdaamno]

GC's jump to push my lynch as soon as he came under fire is obviously suspiscious, but his continued use of illogical arguments make me doubt the possibility he was just attacking me to make himself look town, yet unreliable.

I've been attacking your scummy ass from Day One. You fail at legitimacy.

That's not what I meant. I looked scummy a while back. I don't look as scummy now. You've been just as relentless throughout the game (which is

optimal

for a town player thinking I am scum, but is almost never what happens.)

[charter]

Korts, why are you voting GC? What do you think of Xdaamo and Patrick?

Xdaamo, that's a terrible way of defending yourself. You haven't been scummy recently because you haven't been in the game. Also, your role didn't switch after day one, so your scumminess then is just as relevant now as it was day one.

[Korts]

Korts, why are you voting GC? What do you think of Xdaamo and Patrick?

I've made my stance clear already. Scum are at least two of GC/Patrick/Xdaamno, but GC is the better compromise between a 2:2:8 scenario and a 3:1:8 scenario, in that GC is less likely to be Ether's scumpartner than Xdaamno, but more likely than Patrick.

[Incognito]

The fact that each of those pairings has something odd has actually led me to consider it just being one mafiate and an SK left: in that case I would think Xdaamno is mafia and GC is the serial killer. My issue there is the balance of the game seems pretty ridiculous. I know Yos was a miller and that's a slight disadvantage, but it still seems like we have so much power in that scenario, and vollkan's previous game was much more balanced. GC and Xdaamno are both scum in most plausible scenarios I can think of so I'm thinking one of them should be lynched, with GC looking like the safer bet in case we do have 8-2-2 and Xdaamno is red.

This is an interesting point. I could maybe, maybe, maybe see this kind of scenario. I think the three investigative roles is also more of a disadvantage than an advantage also though so perhaps that's what vollkan was going for here. Multiple red herrings designed to either cause mislynches or force people to lynch others NOT based on role claims but rather actual scummy behavior.

Anywho, I'm still cool with a Green Crayons lynch.

[Xdaamno]

Korts, why are you voting GC? What do you think of Xdaamo and Patrick?

Xdaamo, that's a terrible way of defending yourself. You haven't been scummy recently because you haven't been in the game. Also, your role didn't switch after day one, so your scumminess then is just as relevant now as it was day one.

I think missing the point the first time was acceptable because I wasn't clear at all. After I explained it, though?

I do not think that the fact I have not been scummy recently makes the scuminess earlier on any less valid. I was instead pointing out that I had stopped making scummy moves recently, and yet GC has continued to attack me just as strongly as ever. This is an observation on GC's behavior, not some kind of defence.

[Xdaamno]

The fact that each of those pairings has something odd has actually led me to consider it just being one mafiate and an SK left: in that case I would think Xdaamno is mafia and GC is the serial killer. My issue there is the balance of the game seems pretty ridiculous. I know Yos was a miller and that's a slight disadvantage, but it still seems like we have so much power in that scenario, and vollkan's previous game was much more balanced. GC and Xdaamno are both scum in most plausible scenarios I can think of so I'm thinking one of them should be lynched, with GC looking like the safer bet in case we do have 8-2-2 and Xdaamno is red.

This is an interesting point. I could maybe, maybe, maybe see this kind of scenario. I think the three investigative roles is also more of a disadvantage than an advantage also though so perhaps that's what vollkan was going for here. Multiple red herrings designed to either cause mislynches or force people to lynch others NOT based on role claims but rather actual scummy behavior.

Anywho, I'm still cool with a Green Crayons lynch.

I'm still not so sure on a GC lynch, because I could easily see his emotion being genuine. Could you be persuaded to go Patrick today?

[Patrick]

Do you have any suspicions of Korts/Incognito/charter? Your posts give me the impression you don't and that you've narrowed it down just to me and GC. If you're protown, why so picky between the two of us? Wouldn't we both have to be scum from your perspective?

[Incognito]

The fact that each of those pairings has something odd has actually led me to consider it just being one mafiate and an SK left: in that case I would think Xdaamno is mafia and GC is the serial killer. My issue there is the balance of the game seems pretty ridiculous. I know Yos was a miller and that's a slight disadvantage, but it still seems like we have so much power in that scenario, and vollkan's previous game was much more balanced. GC and Xdaamno are both scum in most plausible scenarios I can think of so I'm thinking one of them should be lynched, with GC looking like the safer bet in case we do have 8-2-2 and Xdaamno is red.

This is an interesting point. I could maybe, maybe, maybe see this kind of scenario. I think the three investigative roles is also more of a disadvantage than an advantage also though so perhaps that's what vollkan was going for here. Multiple red herrings designed to either cause mislynches or force people to lynch others NOT based on role claims but rather actual scummy behavior.

Anywho, I'm still cool with a Green Crayons lynch.

I'm still not so sure on a GC lynch, because I could easily see his emotion being genuine. Could you be persuaded to go Patrick today?

Patrick seems townier to me than Green Crayons. Green Crayons also has an uncanny ability to fake emotion as scum. Therefore, no, I want a GC lynch today. Also curious to see your response to Patrick's question.

[Incognito]

Also, what happened to this:

Green Crayons looks scummy to me. I have a feeling his pathetic insults at me are not because he is an angry person, but because he is trying to replace any suspiscion I have of him with an emotion.

Incog: In light of all of this, who would you like to see lynched today as of this moment?

Fairly scummy quote, but not representative of my feelings I think.

[Green Crayons]

I like how Incog's specific argument for lynching me is that I get emotionally invested in games. He doesn't go as far to investigate if I invest myself fully just as scum or if it's irrespective of alignment, but that's okay because a full comprehension isn't necessary when you claim another player to be "townier" for nebulous reasons.

Never mind the fact that Patrick

shouldn't

seem townier to Incog because his horrifically bad assumption of the game setup would make Patrick and me Blue Scum together.

[Incognito]

I like how Incog's specific argument for lynching me is that I get emotionally invested in games. He doesn't go as far to investigate if I invest myself fully just as scum or if it's irrespective of alignment, but that's okay because a full comprehension isn't necessary when you claim another player to be "townier" for nebulous reasons.

Well, no, I know you get emotionally invested in games no matter your alignment, but I was trying to show Xdaamno that you being emotionally invested isn't actually a town-tell for you since you do it no matter your alignment (he was using your level of emotional investment to as a town-tell for you when it's not -- you've done similar as scum). Besides, I have other reasons for thinking you're scum (mostly, it's due to the stances that you've taken today along with other issues that I've had with your play over the course of the game -- and wow, your clearing of Korts as town because this game

just makes sense!

with a protective role doesn't seem to make sense to me given the other stances you've taken regarding set-up spec today).

Those nebulous reasons for finding Patrick townier than you have to do with my experience playing games with Patrick -- Patrick just feels more relaxed here than I would expect him to feel as scum, which actually gives me some pause about his alignment.

Never mind the fact that Patrick

shouldn't

seem townier to Incog because his horrifically bad assumption of the game setup would make Patrick and me Blue Scum together.

Post 956 is a possibility.

[Green Crayons]

As long as you're explaining it's a null tell, that's fine. I was under the assumption that you were attempting to skew it as a scum tell since you were showcasing it right beside "I want to lynch him."

Korts' role is weak enough that it balances the town against two killing groups without overpowering the town. Two investigative roles + weak doctor + miller makes much more sense to me than three investigative roles + no doctor + miller because with three investigative roles is just all but handing the town a win. So, yeah. It "makes sense" because, well, it makes sense because it doesn't overpower the town (not just because I'm in a crazy feelgood mood about it). Attempting to show that as different than my other setup stances doesn't work - I've explained why 2 mafia v 2 mafia v town

doesn't

make sense. I've approached all of the setup questions from a point of view as to what does and doesn't make sense to me.

I'm pretty sure I've voiced a setup resembling Patrick's 956 prior to Patrick's 956 as possible. Did it take Patrick to voice support for the notion for you to agree with it as a possibility?


Patrick: If you're okay with 2 mafia v 2 mafia v town, and 2 mafia v 1 sk v town as potential setups, what about 3 mafia v 1 sk v town?

[Incognito]

Green Crayons: Yeah, you did mention in your post 866 that you could see the game having 2 mafia:1 SK:9 town, but I was under the impression that you saw this as the least likely possibility, and even under that scenario you still kept pushing the idea that I was somehow either an SK or a mafia-scum just because of my claim. You also inflated your SK case against me by trying to make it seem like Ether was even more obvscum than she actually was, and you seemed to suggest that her "obvscum-ness" allowed me to

know

that she was scum even if I was an SK here, which allowed me to prepare a Watcher claim since Yesterday. I can't see a you-town logically believing all of this. I

can

however see a you-scum forcing this opinion onto everyone to try and gain the win right here, right now. Further, if we take a trip down memory lane, you'd soon realize that Ether was far from being obvscum, which makes this assertion of yours even more ridiculous:

People's thoughts about Ether near end of D1

Yosarian2

Anyway, Ether's last post is giving me a better vibe; the whole thing feels honest to me.

Ether: Are you scum?

Especally the part when she admitted she lurked in order to avoid dealing with the attack on her; I was pretty sure that was what she was doing, and the fact she admitted it actually makes me feel a little better about her.

Yosarian2 begins experiencing a change of heart about Ether's alignment.

camn

And @ Ether.. Charter is not on my radar right now...... In fact, neither are you.

UNVOTE

Unvotes her. Pretty clear change of heart if you ask me.

You (Green Crayons)

This is a recovery mode post; I won't really feel comfortable until I'm interacting again.

Then I'm assuming you won't be slipping back into the shadows once again?

You didn't actually state that you had a change of heart about her but you didn't mention any issues with her for the rest of the Day either. Patrick's treatment of Ether was similar in this regard.

And then in the beginning of Day 2, nobody really focused on Ether until I put forth my case against her.

-> Korts focuses on Xdaamno and then Yosarian2.
-> Xdaamno focuses on Korts and then Yosarian2.
-> You focus on Xdaamno.
-> Patrick focuses on Korts.
-> charter focuses on Yosarian2.
-> Ether makes a post probing at Korts.
-> My case against Ether and

now

people start reacting to it.

So really, I can't see a you-town logically arguing that I could somehow be either an SK or a mafia-scum here since

1)

Ether's obvscum-ness wasn't soooooooo transparent that a me-SK would be able to pick up on it, push for her lynch while preparing a Watcher claim, and then come forward Today with my claim and

2)

if I was mafia-scum, I would have had no reason to bus Ether, my hypo-Mafia RB scum mate during Day 2 when she was under little pressure. I've played with you in two separate games and read through one or two of your other games, and you seem intelligent enough to not logically believe any of the ideas you've pushed Today unless you're scum and are trying to push these ideas for your own scum-pushed agenda.

[Incognito]

Patrick, why aren't you voting yet?

[Xdaamno]

Also, what happened to this:

Green Crayons looks scummy to me. I have a feeling his pathetic insults at me are not because he is an angry person, but because he is trying to replace any suspiscion I have of him with an emotion.

Incog: In light of all of this, who would you like to see lynched today as of this moment?

Fairly scummy quote, but not representative of my feelings I think.

Wow, I was mean

I guess I looked back for a quote, and couldn't find one. That was probably just my feeling at the time, which isn't entirely invalid.

[charter]

Lynch Xdaamo?

[Incognito]

charter, you really think GC looks town here? Like

seriously?

[Xdaamno]

worst move you could make, imo

[Xdaamno]

(Sarnath'd)

[Korts]

Lynch Xdaamo?

Lynch GC now, Xdaamno tomorrow?

[Incognito]

Actually, here's what baffles me about you, charter: your last post seems to indicate that you're leaning towards believing that me and Korts are town and that Xdaamno and Patrick could be scum of some sort. If GC was town, wouldn't you expect him to have been quick-lynched by now if you believe all of this?

[Patrick]

Patrick: If you're okay with 2 mafia v 2 mafia v town, and 2 mafia v 1 sk v town as potential setups, what about 3 mafia v 1 sk v town?

Yes, I've considered that too. If that's the case I would think that either you or Xdaamno would be paired with Korts and the other would be an SK. I doubt Incognito would be scum in this scenario because that would make him either an SK who made a claim that I can't understand at all, or mafia who bused Ether. I'm leaning towards the other setups being more likely though.

Patrick, why aren't you voting yet?

Mainly I don't see the need for lynch-1 just yet when there's still one or two things I'd like discussed (actually mainly the question I asked Xdaamno in my last). I'm aware of the deadline and won't be leaving my vote until the last minute.

Xdaamno: please answer the question in my last post. I don't think you missed it.