Newbie 773 - New Bieland GAME OVER

[xRECKONERx]

When Dragonfly first removes his random vote and instead votes for koriental, he is doing it all because of one snip of koriental's post:

oh man! this is great. so much confusion and suspicion.

He then proceeds to say that because of this, he is scum, because scum would be the only ones who would love confusion and suspicion. Um... I'm sorry, but isn't confusion and suspicion at the core of playing Mafia? I don't see how you can like this game and not enjoy that element of it.

Moving on, Dragonfly says he will be disappointed if the day doesn't end with a hasdgfas lynch. He lays out an elaborate pyramid-of-quote-blocks case against him, then 24 hours later changes his mind and does a complete 180.

Now, he's got a big ass case against tubby... which is one of the votes that eventually leads to tubby's lynch.

Oh, and let's not forget that his last post before the case against me has Dragonfly saying he can see the logic in my case against Cow, and he even drills Cow a bit on the V/LA non-vote issue. Next thing I know...

Dragonfly's back with a case on me! So, Dragonfly, you've hopped from case to case, using whatever flimsy amount of logic you can get to support your "arguments". From your weak vote on koriental, to your elaborate and dramatic case against Cow which you nearly immediately 180'd, and now your case that "confirms" me as scum. Why all the erratic vote-hopping?

I'm not going to vote you because you. Yet. I'm just asking you to slow the hell down and think things through more, because your cases can be easily latched onto by scum and manipulated into lynches. Of course, this is assuming you yourself aren't just and overeager scum...

[Dragonfly13]

You kinda overreacted dude. That is the reason I play so aggressively, to see if I can get a reaction. Why are you so worried? ARE you worried that I'm voting for you?

Why, even after you "mistakenly" hammered tubby, did you think it was appropriate for you to come out with your first post on D2 with ANOTHER VOTE? Don't you think you should maybe play a little slower if you're that unstable? Or maybe you're scum.

Try... the game was stalling out, I was tired of waiting, so I was being aggressive in hopes it would move the game along. Needing the game to progress =/= needing a lynch. Progress can be as simple as gathering information... like you said.

I can agree with that.

Please see the post from Mufasa I quoted that you somehow missed completely.

I didn't miss it. I actually referenced it here:

I don't think I saw Mufasa say anywhere that he wanted to keep cow around regardless, just that cow would probably be helpful to town

Your wild claim that I kept my vote on Bobo (when I was only the second person!) just because I knew he'd be lynched is ridiculous. The town was quite on the way to heading for a Mufasa lynch when everything switched gears.

I may have found it potentially wild if you hadn't said town was on its way to lynching Mufasa. This actually strengthens my point. In my scenario with you being scum, I feel that the more you felt someone other than bobo was going to be lynched, the higher the chance you'd keep your vote on him. Actually, I recall you didn't vote bobo until after I did, which means town was headed for a bobo lynch, so I'll consider my point here moot.

So can people's opinions not change over time? I decided to approach the scumhunting from a new angle, the "who didn't vote for the scum D1" angle, which shed new light on them. I realized while I had attributed newbtown to Koriental, why couldn't that also be newbscum, as they are rather difficult to discern.

You're right, I shouldn't have pressed that so hard. I was actually just interested in how many people you were saying you didn't think were scum.

When he posted this and then claimed vanilla townie, and ONCE AGAIN: I DIDN'T REALIZE IT WAS ACTUALLY L-1... it made me raise an eyebrow, because it seemed as if he was reaching out for town help. I definitely did NOT get a PR read.

Did he claim? Point that out for me please. Are you getting confused between Mufasa and tubby or something? I can see how you would... they both played rather peculiarly.

What? So because I typo'd and thought Ryan was Doc instead of Cop, that's a big deal?

Actually, it is.

So, Dragonfly, you've hopped from case to case, using whatever flimsy amount of logic you can get to support your "arguments". From your weak vote on koriental, to your elaborate and dramatic case against Cow which you nearly immediately 180'd, and now your case that "confirms" me as scum. Why all the erratic vote-hopping?

I still find cow quite suspicious. If I wasn't voting for you, I'd be voting cow. My weak vote on koriental was indeed weak. He hadn't posted much and I was trying to get a read on him, which I now have.

I'm just asking you to slow the hell down and think things through more, because your cases can be easily latched onto by scum and manipulated into lynches. Of course, this is assuming you yourself aren't just and overeager scum...

I thought about you being scum for the better part of two days, and it just makes sense to me right now. I'd really like to know why you find Baszie so suspicious, other than the fact that he hasn't been around much. I consider it disinterest, probably not scum lurking to avoid attention. I would like to see him post more though, because lurking scum is always bad for town. So I can see why you might vote him for being anti-town, but not scummy (yes, there's a difference). Do you find Baszie suspicious or are you just trying to get him to speak up more?

Sorry for all the quotes, I like to point out specific parts of posts instead of the whole thing.

[xRECKONERx]

You kinda overreacted dude. That is the reason I play so aggressively, to see if I can get a reaction. Why are you so worried? ARE you worried that I'm voting for you?

I'm not worried because your case is weak and I think most others will see the flimsy logic. I react like that all the time. I'm very abrasive. Check other games. I.E. Robot Chicken Mafia which just ended. I'm an abrasive player.

Why, even after you "mistakenly" hammered tubby, did you think it was appropriate for you to come out with your first post on D2 with ANOTHER VOTE? Don't you think you should maybe play a little slower if you're that unstable? Or maybe you're scum.

Because I had it all worked out in my head... Baszie was MIA most of the game, was by far the least active, and then the night period took awhile (at least, I thought it did), so I thought a pressure vote on the least active member might bring about some answers. Flimsy logic? Yeah. TBQH, even if Baszie is town, he's not contributing AT ALL and I'm still a little confused as to why we haven't gotten replacements for the lurkers.

I may have found it potentially wild if you hadn't said town was on its way to lynching Mufasa. This actually strengthens my point. In my scenario with you being scum, I feel that the more you felt someone other than bobo was going to be lynched, the higher the chance you'd keep your vote on him. Actually, I recall you didn't vote bobo until after I did, which means town was headed for a bobo lynch, so I'll consider my point here moot.

>.>

Did he claim? Point that out for me please. Are you getting confused between Mufasa and tubby or something? I can see how you would... they both played rather peculiarly.

Oh damn. You're totally right. Tubby claimed, not Mufasa. My bad.

Actually, it is.

I can play too. "Actually, it isn't." See, wasn't that easy!?
Fact of the matter is that in order to actually support your theory that me saying Doc was a Freudian slip because I'm supposedly most interested in revealing Doc (assuming there even is a Doc), you have to buy into a string of far-stretched "truths" which I do not buy and I don't think you should buy so easily either.
If you want my very honest opinion, Cop is way more damaging to scum than Doc is. When I am scum, I'm way more concerned with finding Cop, anyway.

I still find cow quite suspicious. If I wasn't voting for you, I'd be voting cow. My weak vote on koriental was indeed weak. He hadn't posted much and I was trying to get a read on him, which I now have.

And that read is?

I thought about you being scum for the better part of two days, and it just makes sense to me right now. I'd really like to know why you find Baszie so suspicious, other than the fact that he hasn't been around much. I consider it disinterest, probably not scum lurking to avoid attention. I would like to see him post more though, because lurking scum is always bad for town. So I can see why you might vote him for being anti-town, but not scummy (yes, there's a difference). Do you find Baszie suspicious or are you just trying to get him to speak up more?

Thanks for the patronizing lesson about the difference between scum and anti-town.
I'm honestly just trying to get Baszie to talk more. I thought there was an off-chance Baszie could be scum due to the time-lapse as I stated earlier (and the fact that other players have seemingly disappeared, thus the night kill couldn't have been them)... but more or less, it was a pressure vote to make him show the fuck up.

[koriental]

hey dragonfly and reckoner.

liking your intense discussion, however, i'm not really convinced by either of your back and forth statements. it may just be me, but i'm not seeing any startling revelations about your plays/comments so far.

reckoner claimed that you dragonfly could just be an "overeager" scum. i see a slight possibility of that on both of you. but not a strong read YET.

dragonfly you said that baszie seems like he's just lost interest, but from the very beginning, he's been quiet. why would you lose interest at the very beginning of the game y'knoe? especially when one mafia's already gone and a win seems more likely. i think it's more of what you were saying, that he's scum lurking to avoid attn.

that's what i think right now.

p.s. let's stop associating different variations of the word newb/noob with me. lol. making me feel bad. it's my first game ever on the site! show me some love. i think i'm following well up til now! lol

[Dragonfly13]

I actually really appreciate all the contributions you've made to the topic, koriental. You're doing quite well, imo. This could be considered either my first or third game... I had a second game play through in about two weeks on a different site, and I'm in another on mafiascum atm. I think you're progressing fine. Games on this site last a hell of a long time.

In that regard, thanks for commenting! Any discussion is good discussion and you're definitely doing your job.

I'm honestly just trying to get Baszie to talk more. I thought there was an off-chance Baszie could be scum due to the time-lapse as I stated earlier (and the fact that other players have seemingly disappeared, thus the night kill couldn't have been them)... but more or less, it was a pressure vote to make him show the fuck up.

I'd really like to see him get replaced, honestly. There's not really a whole lot to read through here, so a replacement might have more motivation to do something. I get the feeling scum want to keep him around because he's not doing much. That said, he could be simply sitting back and letting us kill each other off while he watches sadistically in his own little world.

We do have some room for error here. However, 3 votes lynch, so a vote is a LOT more powerful now. I may read a couple of your games (Reckoner) and see what I think if I can find the time.

So, I suppose now is the perfect time to call him out and get him in here. I just didn't like the way you did it so quickly after you made your mistake with tubby. Like I said, though, votes have more power now, but we really need to find some kind of consensus before anything major happens.

Reckoner, I'm not trying to personally attack you, I was just being extreme to see how you would react. This is a game after all, but a win would be nice. That said, I still find you to be the most likely scum at this point, so I'm leaving my vote where it is.

Baszie, could use some posting dude. Get in here.

[Dragonfly13]

Before I go to bed... Reckoner, what's your opinion of cow?

[xRECKONERx]

Cow's still suspicious to me. I think the IC title in newbie games a lot of times fends off potential lynches, but Cow has just as much of a possibility of being scum as anyone, and warrants further investigation.

I've noticed Cow always finds some way to cast suspicion on someone. Been doing a lot of asking questions, not much follow up, and generally hasn't added much in the way of scumhunting. Only

appears

to be useful, but isn't really at the core of it.

[Baszie]

My inactivity is most of all caused by my finals. Have my last test tomorrow so I'll be around more after that. If I really am a problem, you can replace me, but imo, I've actually been more active since a couple of days ago.

Anyway, cow has been absent since dragonfly pointed out he's sure reckoner is scum. So far, it's been hard to place cow as either scum or town, but why isn't he around during your discussion?
I kind of scratched reckoner from my 'probable mafia' list after bobo got lynched, he might have been the second person to vote, but he's active enough here to see when a lynch is getting out of hand. But then he votes me, he just lynched tubby, and then he attacked me without hardly any explanation.

Again, About the mafia trying to lynch a doctor: if there is no roleblocker, there also isn't a doctor. This means that mafia should be not trying to lynch a doctor. Dragonfly claimed that reckoner was trying to vote the doc, but if there is a doc, there is a roleblocker. I don't see why the doc needs to be lynched by the mafia if he can just be roleblocked. I think we can even assume there isn't a doctor at all.

One more thing, why isn't koriental suspected by anyone?

[hasdgfas]

My inactivity is most of all caused by my finals. Have my last test tomorrow so I'll be around more after that. If I really am a problem, you can replace me, but imo, I've actually been more active since a couple of days ago.

Anyway, cow has been absent since dragonfly pointed out he's sure reckoner is scum. So far, it's been hard to place cow as either scum or town, but why isn't he around during your discussion?
I kind of scratched reckoner from my 'probable mafia' list after bobo got lynched, he might have been the second person to vote, but he's active enough here to see when a lynch is getting out of hand. But then he votes me, he just lynched tubby, and then he attacked me without hardly any explanation.

Again, About the mafia trying to lynch a doctor: if there is no roleblocker, there also isn't a doctor. This means that mafia should be not trying to lynch a doctor. Dragonfly claimed that reckoner was trying to vote the doc, but if there is a doc, there is a roleblocker. I don't see why the doc needs to be lynched by the mafia if he can just be roleblocked. I think we can even assume there isn't a doctor at all.

One more thing, why isn't koriental suspected by anyone?

vote: Baszie

He is placing suspicion on 3 of the four people that aren't him that are left in the game at the same time, showing how he doesn't care who is lynched.

Not to mention that he says we can assume there isn't a doctor. The only person who would have any knowledge of that is the mafia, because they know whether they are a goon or a RB.

In addition, he is making a post very soon after being called out, which is always suspicious to me. It's like he's trying to slide by.

I'm also sorry I haven't contributed more to the dragonfly-reckoner debate, but I hate these quote-wars. They're just hard to read. If I can find time later today, I'll read it, but it's going to be rough.

[hasdgfas]

@Reckoner: I play by asking a lot of questions. That's what I end up doing until I see something to jump on. I get that same suspicion a lot, but I often don't seem to do much. I'm always thinking, it just doesn't get into the thread until I see something that warrants a vote.

[xRECKONERx]

Then Cow, just for my own sake, what's your opinion of Dragonfly's vote on me?

[hasdgfas]

Then Cow, just for my own sake, what's your opinion of Dragonfly's vote on me?

I feel like he thinks it's really good. I, on the other hand, am not really sure. I definitely don't like how he calls you confirmed scum when we have a dead cop. Right now, I think you're both just arguing townies and Baszie is the scum. Maybe something else will make me change my mind though.

[Baszie]

I am at L-1.

My defense:

Not to mention that he says we can assume there isn't a doctor. The only person who would have any knowledge of that is the mafia, because they know whether they are a goon or a RB.

I was not saying there isn't a doctor, I'm saying that dragonfly's argument about reckoner trying to find the doc is useless. I also redirect you to my earlier post about this: HERE

In addition, he is making a post very soon after being called out, which is always suspicious to me. It's like he's trying to slide by.

I am in a completely different timezone, I just logged on in the afternoon and noticed a discussion occurred overnight.

Also, I do cast suspicion on players but I either have a reason or I do not cast suspicion at all. For example, koriental has made some weird mistakes, but he is completely out of the picture today. I do not want to make him look suspicious, I asked a question why he isn't being suspected anymore.
Cow, your votes so far have not been pro-town at all, so I noted that I can't really place you as town or scum at the moment, apart from that, you just put me at L-1 without reading the last quotewar page, those posts may not have anything to do with me, but your vote does seem very reckless.
Reckoner has not been making a lot of sense with his last votes, I think I have a good reason to get him off my 'confirmed townie list'.

[xRECKONERx]

Unvote

.

[xRECKONERx]

Reckoner has not been making a lot of sense with his last votes, I think I have a good reason to get him off my 'confirmed townie list'.

I shouldn't have been on any confirmed anything list in the first place.
In any case, the only vote I cannot defend well is my tubby vote, because I'm telling you I had no clue he was at L-1, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. Every other vote I have a reason for.

[koriental]

hey baszie in post 237 where you say that i "am out of the picture today"
are you saying that i haven't responded to your comment about me in a quick enough amount of time? let me know plz

2 votes puts ppl so close to getting lynched so let's be careful w/ our votes. we don't want to lynch too quick right? just wondering if there's a timeline for this day 3. cuz i think before, moderator said there was like a deadline on the prev days. but he didn't for this day. is it that on day 3 the deadline is done? if that's the case. do we want to vote quicker?

and another note. just reiterating reckoner's statement, no one should be confirmed anything especially a townsperson. there's really no way to tell. i have my suspicions and thoughts about who might be the guilty party, but in the end, there's no guarantee until after they're lynched or killed in the night and their role is revealed.

i like the idea of feeling strongly that someone is mafia and making your points to argue that. but i think arguing for someone to be a townsperson is dangerous.

along with that i'm a bit suspicious of ppl who "confirm" that someone else is a townsperson, cuz it seems like you mite be trying to get someone to be on your side? y'knoe?

i mite've done it in the past in this game and i apologize if i have. not my intention to be hypocritical, but i find as i spend more time playing, this confirmation of other ppl being NOT mafia doesn't do anything for us. and seems a bit scummy.

what do you guys think?

[Dragonfly13]

I just wanted to say... considering there's only one mafia left,

a lot of the town members are playing like shit

. Seriously.

I couldn't have said it better myself. *frown* The past ten or so posts have sent me on a wild goose chase.

Cow's vote on Baszie got me a little worried at first. Especially the point cow makes about Baszie "making a post very soon after being called out." Cow hasn't been around much recently, tbh. Though my view may be a little distorted because I feel reckoner and I have been a lot more active recently.

So it got me worried, so I read it a few more times and tried to make some sense of it where previously there wasn't much. He actually does make a lot of sense in forming a case against Baszie.. I am very thrown off by this:

Again, About the mafia trying to lynch a doctor: if there is no roleblocker, there also isn't a doctor. This means that mafia should be not trying to lynch a doctor. Dragonfly claimed that reckoner was trying to vote the doc, but if there is a doc, there is a roleblocker. I don't see why the doc needs to be lynched by the mafia if he can just be roleblocked. I think we can even assume there isn't a doctor at all.

Baszie assumes there is no roleblocker... I think this is a point cow made. This assumption seems to hold more scumweight than a simple freudian slip (perhaps it could even be called a freudian slip as well), but as I am SO confused by all of you at the moment I'm not yet comfortable with changing my vote. Cow, though baszie does throw suspicion around quite a bit, I feel he is subtly pushing in my direction. He says he thinks we can assume there isn't even a doc, which imo makes me look like I am the roleblocker for even bringing up doc. I don't like how he keeps saying I am assuming there is a doc in the game when I haven't assumed it. I merely brought up the fact that there is a possibility of a doc in the game in my case against reckoner. What's made me most interested in baszie is how hard he is pressing the idea of whether there is a roleblocker or simply another goon. No one but the doc knows that a doc exists in the game, if there is a doc. No one but the roleblocker knows that a roleblocker exists in the game if the other mafia is a roleblocker. We don't know if either of those two roles are in the game, so speculating is out of the question. Assuming is even worse, and I'm not even going to begin to assume anything about the setup other than the fact that there are four townies and one mafia left.

One more thing, why isn't koriental suspected by anyone?

Should he be? I'm starting to see more reasons why cow put you at L-1. You have too many fingers dude. We all do. Let's consider the fact that there is one mafia left and four townies. If this is the case, why are we pointing so many fingers when we should really only have one? I think most of us need more clarity of thought in general, myself included.

I have come to a point where I feel it might be necessary for me to begin reading some past games you guys have played. Not really sure when I'll have time to do that (summer engineering sucks and I'm actually taking a break from my all-nighter), but hopefully I can start this weekend.

With all of this said, I am ready to postpone my case against reckoner as more and more things are posted. I don't like the idea of two other people deciding his fate when I myself am not sure. I know I called you confirmed scum, reckoner, but being aggressive has paid off for me in the past, and I will not stop playing this way until I find a reason to do otherwise.

Unvote

Right now I'm most interested in Baszie and Reckoner. I concede that my confidence in my case against Reckoner has waned recently, as my case on cow did D2. You two are both playing very well, but when I think about this game when I'm away from the computer, I begin to drown in WIFOM because of it. Are you defending yourselves so well because you are town, or are you defending yourselves so well because you are very clever scum? I think it's fair to think that the last scum is being quite clever, but I'm not jumping to any conclusions.

what do you guys think?

I agree with the majority of your post. I assume there is a deadline for D3, but I'm pretty sure it's not for a while.

[Baszie]

Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the doctor thing. I was saying that there is no reason for scum to look for a doctor, and I rambled on about it way too long, especially after my first post about it got neglected.
About my 'confirmed town' list: I myself am calling it townie list, but when I typed that, it sounded like I'm scum. The way I try to find scum is by finding out who is most probably not scum, and focusing my attention to the remaining player's posts. This is obviously my first game, so the strategy might be flawed though .
About koriental, I'm still a bit concerned the lynch for today is either going to be me, reckoner or cow. I hardly suspect koriental, I asked a question why no one else suspects him either.

I can completely understand that people are suspecting me, I've been posting a lot of stuff not relevant to the discussion in progress. However, on day one, I cast the final vote on bobo, it may have been luck, but he got lynched and he was mafia. I could have voted mufasa, putting him at L-1 too. Despite this, can I still be considered scum?

[Talitha]

Vote Count

Baszie (1) - hasdgfas

Not voting: Baszie, Dragonfly13, koriental, xRECKONERx

3 votes will lynch, deadline is 20 June.

[xRECKONERx]

About my 'confirmed town' list: I myself am calling it townie list, but when I typed that, it sounded like I'm scum. The way I try to find scum is by finding out who is most probably not scum, and focusing my attention to the remaining player's posts. This is obviously my first game, so the strategy might be flawed though .

Playing the newbie card on Day 3 = no no.

About koriental, I'm still a bit concerned the lynch for today is either going to be me, reckoner or cow. I hardly suspect koriental, I asked a question why no one else suspects him either.

I don't suspect koriental because of his early posts in the game. They came off VERY newbtown... however, now that we're down to five and he's still alive, I think it could very well have been newbscum, especially after the epic fail of killing Mufasa.

I can completely understand that people are suspecting me, I've been posting a lot of stuff not relevant to the discussion in progress. However, on day one, I cast the final vote on bobo, it may have been luck, but he got lynched and he was mafia. I could have voted mufasa, putting him at L-1 too. Despite this, can I still be considered scum?

You cast the final vote on Bobo... Dragonfly cast the first vote on Bobo... and I cast the second vote on Bobo. If anything, you swooping in for the kill when it looked like he was going to go down anyway doesn't convince me. That is a very interesting thing to note that koriental & Cow were the only two who didn't vote Bobo on D1 though.

[Baszie]

I don't suspect koriental because of his early posts in the game. They came off VERY newbtown... however, now that we're down to five and he's still alive, I think it could very well have been newbscum, especially after the epic fail of killing Mufasa.

Though I don't think the nightkill alone is a good reason to suspect koriental, I am glad someone took the time to even consider him. His votes make him possible scum and I was scared he was being ignored.

You cast the final vote on Bobo... Dragonfly cast the first vote on Bobo... and I cast the second vote on Bobo. If anything, you swooping in for the kill when it looked like he was going to go down anyway doesn't convince me. That is a very interesting thing to note that koriental & Cow were the only two who didn't vote Bobo on D1 though.

The only player that hadn't voted yet was cow, who was absent for a short while. I don't think you can safely say "he was going to go down anyway", because I was practically the only player left to vote.

[xRECKONERx]

He was at L-1. He was going to go down.

[hasdgfas]

Playing the newbie card on Day 3 = no no.

I agree with this.

Baszie, I still have some questions about your thoughts on koriental. Why say nothing and expect answers from others? I feel like you're just following popular opinion with regards to him.

[xRECKONERx]

I'm liking a Baszie lynch today. Almost forgot about this game.

[Dragonfly13]

This post would probably find a better home at the mafia theory board, but I'd like to throw this idea out there anyway, because I don't think a small digression would really hurt considering how slow this game moves relative to a few others.

There are five players left, we'll call them A B C D and E.

If we lynch one of these players, say B, then the final four remaining are A C D and E. Then the night kill happens, and we are left with C D and E. If we make a mistake today, then tomorrow is lylo.

My suggestion is, why not ask each individual player something (I don't know what exactly) that, if a mislynch were to happen today, might help tomorrow considering that a couple of confirmed town will be dead by then?