Mini 761 - Game Over

[X]

Original Role PMs

Stephoscope:

You are the

Mafia Godfather

. Your partners are

Pitstop, Mafia Goon

, and

ryan2754, Mafia Goon

. You are NK Immune - you will not die during the night. Your scumteam has a nightkill and can nighttalk here.

You are a threat to the town.

Nightkill specs:

Any player may be targeted. That person will die that night, unless the kill is interfered with.

You win when your faction controls a simple majority of the living players, or nothing can prevent the same.

Game thread is here. When eveyone has opened their PM, D1 will begin.

Pitstop:

You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are

Stephoscope, Mafia Godfather

(NK Immune), and

ryan2754, Mafia Goon

. Your scumteam has a nightkill and can nighttalk here.

You are a threat to the town.

Nightkill specs:

Any player may be targeted. That person will die that night, unless the kill is interfered with.

You win when your faction controls a simple majority of the living players, or nothing can prevent the same.

Game thread is here. When eveyone has opened their PM, D1 will begin.

ryan2754:

You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are

Stephoscope, Mafia Godfather

(NK Immune), and

Pitstop, Mafia Goon

. Your scumteam has a nightkill and can nighttalk here.

You are a threat to the town.

Nightkill specs:

Any player may be targeted. That person will die that night, unless the kill is interfered with.

You win when your faction controls a simple majority of the living players, or nothing can prevent the same.

Game thread is here. When eveyone has opened their PM, D1 will begin.

Conspicuous_Other:

You are a

Vigilante

. You have a nightkill.

You are not a threat to the town.

Nightkill specs:

Any player may be targeted. That person will die that night, unless the kill is interfered with.

You win when no living players are a threat to the town.

Game thread is here. When eveyone has opened their PM, D1 will begin.

alexhans:

You are a

Doctor

. You can night-protect.

You are not a threat to the town.

Night-protect specs:

Any player except the protector may be targeted. That person will not die that night, unless the protection is interfered with.

You win when no living players are a threat to the town.

Game thread is here. When eveyone has opened their PM, D1 will begin.

Zachrulez, Gateway, lordzoner, AshKetchummm, Wall-E, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Amished:

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You are not a threat to the town.

You win when no living players are a threat to the town.

Game thread is here. When eveyone has opened their PM, D1 will begin.

Player List:

• alexhans, Doctor
  
  
  Amished, Vanilla Townie
  
  
  Debonair Danny DiPietro, Vanilla Townie
  
  
  dramonic, Mafia Goon
  LesterGroans; Pitstop
  
  
  Gateway, Vanilla Townie
  
  
  Hoopla, Vanilla Townie
  AshKetchummm
  
  
  Kise, Vigilante
  Jazzmyn; Conspicuous_other
  
  
  Panzerjager, Vanilla Townie
  lordzoner
  
  
  ryan2754, Mafia Goon
  
  
  Stephoscope, Mafia Godfather
  
  
  Wall-E, Vanilla Townie
  
  
  Zachrulez, Vanilla Townie

Night Actions

N1:

alexhans, Doctor

protects

Jazzmyn, Vigilante

Jazzmyn, Vigilante

kills

Amished, Vanilla Townie

Stephoscope, Mafia Godfather

kills

Gateway, Vanilla Townie

N2:

alexhans, Doctor

protects

Zachrulez, Vanilla Townie

Jazzmyn, Vigilante

does not kill

Stephoscope, Mafia Godfather

kills

Debonair Danny DiPietro, Vanilla Townie

N3:

alexhans, Doctor

protects

Zachrulez, Vanilla Townie

Kise, Vigilante

kills

alexhans, Doctor

ryan2754, Mafia Goon

kills

alexhans, Doctor

[X]

X:

First of all, thanks to all who played. A

special

thanks to everyone who didn't replace out: alexhans, Amished, Debonair Danny DiPietro, dramonic, Gateway, Hoopla, Kise, Panzerjager, ryan2754, Stephoscope, Wall-E, and Zachrulez.

About halfway through the game, I realized that 2 power roles against 3 mafiosi was not the most balanced choice, so I feel bad about giving the Mafia somewhat of an advantage. There were mistakes made speculating on the setup, and I gave up on re-posting Game-Specific Rule 2. As for the ruleset, any suggestions are welcome. I plan to change Rules 2, 4, 8, and 9 - not in spirit, just to close loopholes. If you noticed, I took Panzerjager's suggestion for Vote Counts starting on D3. Any suggestions about Vote Counts are welcome.

Now to the gameplay. Day 1, Wall-E presented himself as a target, which I've learned he does as Town. The number of replacements probably helped Mafia, especially since ryan2754 and Stephoscope never replaced out. Day 2, Panzerjager's gambit made no sense to me. I considered PMing him to remind him that he was not a Watcher (a role that I had considered using), but didn't. Definitely interesting that he had called out Stephoscope (Mafia) with no information. Day 3, LesterGroans was certainly the most suspicious of the scum. ryan2754 and Stephoscope actually had a lot of trust with the town. So when dramonic entered and played hastily (especially with his claim of Stephoscope being Doctor), it made sense with him as the lynch. I actually expected that claim to get Stephoscope lynched on D4. Day 4, it was interesting to see people think that Kise's survival meant that Stephoscope was likely town. Actually, alexhans started PMing me his frustrations, venting that a certain VT was obvscum. ryan2754's claim seemed contrary to what the Mafia had suggested in their QT, so it really intrigued me. It turned out well, though. I personally feel bad about Hoopla's setup speculation in 1005. Oh, well.

As for night choices, I was pleased that every Night-protect was on a pro-town player, and surprised that every Vigilante NK was on a pro-town player. I was a little relieved that there was only one pro-town death on N3, because two deaths would end the game fairly quickly. I think I underestimated the swinginess of a Vigilante when designing the setup. You'll also notice that if Kise had selected to kill alexhans (already killed by mafia), Stephoscope (NK-Immune), or Zachrulez (Doc-protected), they would all have the same result as to who went into D4 alive.

Overall, both sides had their good and bad points. Thanks for giving me this opportunity to mod - it was fun! I plan to have my next game be a Large Normal. Look for it!

[alexhans]

This is an essay about frustration.
Fuck! I honestly suspected Hoopla... I even PMed X with all my suspicions....

Hoop: WHYYYYYYYYY???? Why would you say one day that I was suspicious and the next day that I was obv pro town? Why would you lurk SO much?

I actually thought it was Hoopla (and Ryan if the game didn't end). Steph seemed too obvious... And hoopla's sudden push on Kise who was obv the Vig made really sure she was scum... I hate to get wifomed...
And all the weird stuff she started pulling... WHY?

Now, Ryan... You know I'm gonna suspect you forever right? You just played like the scum I hate... Lurky lurk. Low activity. He remains unreachable because he waits a lot to post and then he does so in a manner that he is never in the spotlight.

Sometimes I wished I had had self-protect... I would've protected me N2 and N3.

It's ironic how the townie was hammered at lylo by 2 other townies and scum while the remaining scum didn't even vote.

I want to see that Quicktopic...

I knew that Wall-e was a bad lynch
I totally thought Panzer was a good lynch. I hated that "gambyt". It screwed us pretty bad.

So when dramonic entered and played hastily (especially with his claim of Stephoscope being Doctor),

He said Steph was a Cop. That actually made me trust Steph more... It was TOO STUPID for someone to do that.

Kise's kill was TOTALLY reckless... should scum shoot another Town-player we were doomed.

Meh... People never acknowledged the fact that they might be at lylo...

Replacements being replaced sucked... Lurker town replacements sucked. I sucked not being able to stop a single kill...

I sucked, overall, in this game. All along. meh. Frustration.
I couldn't convince people not to vote Wall-e on day 1.

...
All I'm feeling is this Angry, burning desire to blame all our town mislynched for TOTALLY deserving them...
But I also have to recognize that ryan and Steph played pretty well. I knew there was some bussing in Dramonic's waggon.
Of the 3 people I had (Zach and Kise were out) I would've chosen the only townie...

Zach: tough luck mate.... We tried.
Kise: who's chasing you? Why do you take rush desitions? Kill by meta? My kill didn't make sense.
Steph: GREAT, great play dude. You played, you were active, you acted disoriented. Great play.

Good game to you all...

Thanks for modding in such a great way X.

[Zachrulez]

Well at least I can take comfort in the fact that the game was effectively over when Kise voted.

I don't know what more we could have done, Hoopla looked so obv scummy. Bah.

[Zachrulez]

I will note that Steph's case on Hoopla was well played. That stuff he pointed out by Ash DID look like day talk. (Probably set up by Lester)

Though it honestly didn't factor much into my decision. Hoopla's play was uber scummy.

I regret defending Stephoscope on day 1, and even day 2... but I think I'm only saying that cause I now know he's scum. I really don't think any of his play was scummy the first two days... his day 3 play may well have been more telling, along with the fact that it was just rubbing me wrong how all his cases just happened to be on townies.

I also regret that we didn't get Lester lynched sooner... but with Panzer doing what he did, that probably wasn't possible. I maintain that the only reason I voted Panzer was because of that gambit. If he had claimed vanilla like he should have, I would have done everything in my power to prevent that lynch from happening because I didn't think it was a good one until the claim. (I only asked in case there was a serious threat to a potential power role.)

This game was hurt badly by scummy townies. Don't feel too bad Alex, against three scummy townies, there wasn't really that much more that we could have done.

Kise, you shouldn't have vigged Alex, that could have lost us the game outright. The speculation about the vig kill WAS also a null tell. Hoopla, myself, and Steph all asked about it, and only Steph was scum, which proves my point. ^ _ ^

Also something I find interesting is that on day 3, with the bandwagon on Dramonic building, Stephoscope tried to build a bandwagon on me, and it was COMPLETELY scumridden... HA! That's just crazy.

I'm dying from morbid curiosity about what Jazz had for a case on Steph. I wish she would have shared it, but I don't know if it would have actually changed anything... oh well.

[Amished]

I think I actually pegged Steph and Ryan halfway through D1 (I followed until Jazz claimed Vig) so I don't know how Kise or anybody else did (and didn't see the "gambit" or whatever was referred to).

I also wanted to comment on the fact that so many people were after her to claim, but if you saw her talking about the setup like that there's only one reason why she would have had to worry about how many scum are left (because she had a killing role).

[Stephoscope]

Great game, all.

Quicktopic is here: http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/wxdxKfvUuBnQb

You'll see that Ryan's copclaim and my attack on Hoopla were totally not part of the plan I agree with you guys, certain townies made questionable posts and we just jumped on them, and I was amused that I made it to the end when Wall-E, Panzerjager and Hoopla were all town and all calling for my death as they were lynched Don't feel bad Amished and Zach, you guys played totally solid and my efforts to off you were completely unsuccessful. I was pretty surprised that Amished was vigged.

I was a little disappointed that there was never a vig attempt on me. You can see how we were trying to set up Jazz to go ahead and try to kill me...but then she was replaced at the last minute. It would have been interesting to see how that played out.

[Stephoscope]

I was also REALLY surprised that my promise to help lynch myself if Panzerjager flipped town never came up again. That was why I later said something about how Panzerjager's play probably lost the game for the town...even though obviously his suspicions were correct.

I didn't even think Panzerjager WOULD flip town...I figured him to be an SK.

[Zachrulez]

I was also REALLY surprised that my promise to help lynch myself if Panzerjager flipped town never came up again. That was why I later said something about how Panzerjager's play probably lost the game for the town...even though obviously his suspicions were correct.

I didn't even think Panzerjager WOULD flip town...I figured him to be an SK.

You got away with this because Panzer LIED. He was completely discredited even before his flip.

This is why you don't lie about your role as town.

[Stephoscope]

You got away with this because Panzer LIED. He was completely discredited even before his flip.

This is why you don't lie about your role as town.

Yeah, it was a bad play on his part, it just didn't clear me...and if I remember correctly, I started hinting that it did and DDD called me on it.

alexhans played a great game, especially considering I never suspected him of being a doctor, and I can't believe he got vigged as well as scumkilled...although obviously we went into the final day exactly like we expected, since I was non-NKable and I expected a vig attempt.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I was also REALLY surprised that my promise to help lynch myself if Panzerjager flipped town never came up again. That was why I later said something about how Panzerjager's play probably lost the game for the town...even though obviously his suspicions were correct.

I didn't even think Panzerjager WOULD flip town...I figured him to be an SK.

You got away with this because Panzer LIED. He was completely discredited even before his flip.

This is why you don't lie about your role as town.

D2 is why you don't lynch uncountered power role claims.

[Zachrulez]

It's really eerie reading about you guys considering a kill on me on night 2... ^ _ ^

[Zachrulez]

I was also REALLY surprised that my promise to help lynch myself if Panzerjager flipped town never came up again. That was why I later said something about how Panzerjager's play probably lost the game for the town...even though obviously his suspicions were correct.

I didn't even think Panzerjager WOULD flip town...I figured him to be an SK.

You got away with this because Panzer LIED. He was completely discredited even before his flip.

This is why you don't lie about your role as town.

D2 is why you don't lynch uncountered power role claims.

I feel absolutely terrible about asking Panzer to claim now, I feel like I somehow encouraged that play

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I was also REALLY surprised that my promise to help lynch myself if Panzerjager flipped town never came up again. That was why I later said something about how Panzerjager's play probably lost the game for the town...even though obviously his suspicions were correct.

I didn't even think Panzerjager WOULD flip town...I figured him to be an SK.

You got away with this because Panzer LIED. He was completely discredited even before his flip.

This is why you don't lie about your role as town.

D2 is why you don't lynch uncountered power role claims.

I feel absolutely terrible about asking Panzer to claim now, I feel like I somehow encouraged that play

Well, personally I'm in the camp that you only call for a claim if you're willing to put down the hammer right then and there, so the badness of your play depends on that.

I actually think it was a great gambit, but it failed because two scum were already on the wagon and they suddenly had no desire to be anywhere else and Jazz the vig knew he was lying as well because she was the one who had sent in that kill, which meant there was only one person who he could possibly swing off his wagon.

Fuck, looking back at it, Panz claiming tracker instead of cop makes it even more obvious he was town. Scum would've claimed cop to try and draw a counterclaim at the very least, claiming tracker avoids that danger for the town allowing the imaginary cop to stay hidden.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Anyways, as a VT I'm beginning to see that I generally stink at actually finding scum, I am however quite competent at finding other townies. It’s seriously disheartening to spend all my time arguing with three people on D2 (Zach, Zlex, Ash) and not have a single one be scum. Amished was obvtown for me and it turns out completely on target D1 so it really, really sucks that our vig killed him on N1. Compliments on the scum side to ryan as he never drew my attention at all during the game.

Looking at the QT I’m only moderately insulted that ryan thought I wasn’t getting the arguments against Panz and had external information. I got the arguments that were made, I just properly sussed out that they were bogus; at least I ended up soaking up a NK as a VT because of it.

[Zachrulez]

As I look at the QT, it's interesting to see that the expended a a lot of effort to find a cop that didn't exist.

[Zachrulez]

Which makes me wish that Hoopla had played better toward the end. Ryan's cop claim was fishy at best.

[Stephoscope]

@Steph: You want discussion. I completely agree with you, but discussion also arises from people talking about the little things that come up. You also said that you don't want people jumping on the little things (sparking discussion imo). While it's all fine and dandy to have discussion over the big things, discussion over the small things shouldn't be discouraged either. I'm also trying to imply that people shouldn't be afraid of what they say period. If they're townie, it should be able to be somewhat determined through the rest of their actions/posts, regardless of what people question them about.

Well, I think that's all I need to see.

110: Amished votes for me because of the "plenty" thing, providing an appeal to ridicule as his explanation.

116: Says my "soft vote" (his words, not mine) is "one more reason" for his supposed thinking I'm scum.

125: Keeps talking about how I supposedly wanted to vote for Wall-E, ignoring the fact that I had quite obviously tried to shift the focus away from him.

133: Amished acts like I claimed he "disagreed" with me about discussion being a good thing. Begun, the semantics games have.

137: Says "scumhunting too hard" (re: my "plenty" comment) leads to weak cases. Talks a lot about tunnel vision.

144: But noooo, he wasn't saying *I* was tunnel-visioning. (While technicially true, go back and read these posts and see how his position shifts when he's called on something. This has been the case with Amished all game long.) Oh and look! Now the "soft-vote" is "still the bulk" of why his vote is on me. As if that had always been his supposed primary reason. Slick.

155: Again claims I want to lynch Wall-E, ignoring that I'm the person who tried to shift conversation in a different direction. And he never saw a townie say something like I did, therefore I must not be a townie. I will revisit this logic in a bit.

156: "What possible motivation would I have for that?" You know something? I HAVE seen lots of scum say that, therefore it's evidence you're scummy. Better logic than yours in 155, and I'm not done with your logic yet.

180: Amished's statement to me is basically incomprehensible. His statement to DDD is "look how protown I am" showboating that Wall-E has been pointing out.

190: Now he's desperate. Realizing he made a mistake voting and building a silly case against someone who was scouring for clues, what does he do? Apologize? Try to move the conversation in a different direction? Perhaps do his own part to get others involved or figure out who might really be scum? No...

those are the sorts of things that a townie would do.

Instead, he is actually trying to convince us all that *he's* been the one who's been trying to facilitate discussion all along!

No townie would be playing games like this.

Although here's one just for fun: I've never seen a townie with an avatar showing Amish people

before

, so here's a

Vote: Amished

For the record, this was a scumtell (the "before" was bolded by me just now). "before" implies that I am currently looking at a townie. I STRESSED about this one after posting.

(Later in the game, I expected to die and hoped ryan could take the victory on his own, and so I was far less worried about what I posted.)

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I think I was a bit taken by how much I liked your cases Steph.

I hate you now. Damn you for fooling me in the early game. Damn you to hell.

I really didn't start suspecting you until it was too late.

[Stephoscope]

I would have played in much the same way if I were town--I would have brought up the "plenty" thing, I would have brought up the birthday thing. I really do believe that "easy lynches" are often bad, and that players need to look for subtleties like the one I just posted. Of course, once scummy Wall-E and Panzer flipped town, and once I started arguing that scumtells weren't actually scumtells, that made me bolder in trying to save obvscum Lester/dramonic and basically acting scummy myself

[Zachrulez]

I would have played in much the same way if I were town--I would have brought up the "plenty" thing, I would have brought up the birthday thing. I really do believe that "easy lynches" are often bad, and that players need to look for subtleties like the one I just posted. Of course, once scummy Wall-E and Panzer flipped town, and once I started arguing that scumtells weren't actually scumtells, that made me bolder in trying to save obvscum Lester/dramonic and basically acting scummy myself

Primarily the reason I started to suspect you.

The easy lynches thing is a tough call. Sometimes you have to lynch people because their behavior is scummy, but there are players that do the same scummy actions all the time, and it's kind of a tough call to call them simply anti-town vs scummy. (And frustrating that you even have to make that call in the first place.)

I wasn't a big fan of all the twilight we had, I felt it presented too much of an oppurtunity for scum to find contradictions made by townies vs their reactions to the night actions the next day. As it turns out Hoopla fell victim to this by voicing suspicion of Alexhans in Twilight (a feeling I shared.) and then flipping on this position the next day after he died, and what looked like in my eyes her freezing up when I noticed the contradiction on that matter. This was presicely why I tried to say as little as possible during twilight. I wanted to give the scum as little information as possible, and even less to use against me directly when they did their night actions.

But yeah, I think that would be another lesson, be careful what you say during twilight, and if you suspected someone that died and flipped town, don't be afraid to fess up and admit you were wrong, that was Hoopla's downfall.

Though on the other hand, had twilight not been an issue at all, I think the game could have gone in a very different direction, cause I felt Hoopla was town until I noticed she contradicted herself in a really scummy way.

[Hoopla]

Which makes me wish that Hoopla had played better toward the end. Ryan's cop claim was fishy at best.

I flip-flopped on a lot of my suspicions - when my views change on someone I post them. I've been bit too many times committing to a case, getting a bad feeling about it, and being paranoid about changing my mind thinking I'll look scummy. I think if I had more time I could have backed myself up better, but overall don't fault my play. You were all very hasty to lynch me which is a shame.

Alex, I don't remember using the term 'obv' for anything. Thanks for playing everyone, I had fun!

[Kise]

I'm pretty sure the mafia killed Alex before I did.. right? Lol.

Hoop, I could tell the paranoia sank in. But that, combined with you telling us about the truck stop, to you further throwing dirt on me by saying I could be a SK... It was too obv-scum in my opinion, so that's why I sealed the vote.

It was very unfortunate that we asked Ryan to RC last. He got away with the cop claim, and I believed it because he was the 1st to vote for dramonic, so I figured he was onto something then.

Good game, although it was a short experience for me.

[Hoopla]

I'm pretty sure the mafia killed Alex before I did.. right? Lol.

Hoop, I could tell the paranoia sank in. But that, combined with you telling us about the truck stop, to you further throwing dirt on me by saying I could be a SK... It was too obv-scum in my opinion, so that's why I sealed the vote.

It was very unfortunate that we asked Ryan to RC last. He got away with the cop claim, and I believed it because he was the 1st to vote for dramonic, so I figured he was onto something then.

Good game, although it was a short experience for me.

What are you talking about? You were in no way confirmed and from a balance perspective an SK was perfectly viable in this set-up, if in fact we did have a cop.

[Zachrulez]

Which makes me wish that Hoopla had played better toward the end. Ryan's cop claim was fishy at best.

I flip-flopped on a lot of my suspicions - when my views change on someone I post them. I've been bit too many times committing to a case, getting a bad feeling about it, and being paranoid about changing my mind thinking I'll look scummy. I think if I had more time I could have backed myself up better, but overall don't fault my play. You were all very hasty to lynch me which is a shame.

Alex, I don't remember using the term 'obv' for anything. Thanks for playing everyone, I had fun!

There were a lot of concerns about your change in position and you talked about the game setup instead, and then you said you were going to be taking a couple of days away without ever addressing the points.

My vote wasn't needed anyway, a hammer from Ryan would have won the game for scum.