Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[MafiaMann]

Mastin your sarcasm can create confusion as in maybe someone thinks you are not truly being sarcastic. Its much more simple to be straight then giving people the chance to say maybe hes trying trick us.

Also mod just so you know mastin voted johny in above post so you dont need to read the entire thing

[Redith]

Jesus Mastin. Need to cut the crap.
Your obviously mafia. xD

K. so. I'm gonna have to go re-read through all this crap.

FoS: Empking's Alt.

I post reasons later.

[roflcopter]

mastin, tell me how many people i have to be suspicious of before i'm no longer "tunneling" on each and every one of them? because you just went down my various and changing suspicions throughout the later parts of lynch all lurkers and labeled each of them as individually tunneling. i would say that being vocally suspicious of more than one person and pursuing cases on these people all at once is in fact the exact opposite of tunneling.

my point in bringing up one example of me focusing ("tunneling") on a player and being right is that the benefit to the town of not being convinced to lay off of that player despite shouts of "omg rofl is tunneling" was a successful scum lynch. sure, it is possible for me or anyone else to be wrong, but if i see continued evidence that you are scum (which i do) i will continue to present it and will not be dissuaded simply by you or anyone else telling me to stop with the tunnel-vision and i will not be dissuaded by you stating that your own defense is valid and therefore i should back off.

i'll respond to other individual points later.

[Hayker]

He's scummy because of saying the RVS was over, when it clearly wasn't to the majority of the players.

Why is that scummy?

@ Fallen Angel, I consider hayker scummy for reasons outlined, basically I think his comments on rolf or very odd, and I don't like his reasoning here. Seems like he's making stuff up.

Looking back, it's not exactly w super scummy thing. Though I don't remember claiming it being super scummy, just that I found it scummy. And I am merely human(I know, it's unbelievable), and can indeed be wrong. As I read more of this game though, I'm thinking he's scummier and scummier, but that is because of his tunnel vision. Going by meta game knowledge that others have, that's normal. But I dan't go basing my opinions oiff of other peoples thoughts.

It was more the abrupt way of the trnsition. I learned to play mafia on FEABL, where the rvs does not exist really. The RVS is replaced by a clue hunting stage where people allign the clue to different people for different reasons. I've only played two RVS' here, and they both had rather slow transitions. The concept of ending it like that was rather alien, especially when you add in instant accusation, when I didn't think there was any reason for that hardcore of an accusaion this early at all.

[Hayker]

I find roflcopters constant strait up blaming Mastin being scum kinda scummy. Though I have to admit, I believe he brings up a few valid points.

@Kublai:I don't know for sure, but perhaps his acting different is because that was a newbie game. I can already tell how different newbie games are from large games in the first two pages.

I'm gonna assume that rvs is over for a fact, so I hope the complete and total randomness dies down a bit. Though with Mastin and Zazie around....

Can you elaborate on the Rofl-part?
And why no vote for either one of them?

The elaboration is in post 178.

I learned mafia on FEABL, which has a far different mafia style then here. Voting is generally discouraged unless you are fairly certain that someone is mafia, and thus I hesitate. I suspect some people to be scummier than others at this point in time, and actually have a couple vote ideas in my head. I'll get to that later though as I'm adressing posts to me first.

[Hayker]

Finally caught up. I was afraid Mastin would come back and start posting again before I finished.

Mastin's wall of text annoys me to no end but there is nothing inherently scummy about it. Since it is his MO it is a null tell. At least it has sparked discussion rather quickly. Dissecting his posts, it is mostly fluff but there is some scum hunting buried in there. I'll consider him pro-town for now.

rolfcopter is tunneling. I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with his citing of single cases to prove his points on tunneling and scum calling. Furthermore, there are differing viewpoints on the miller roleclaim so there is no reason to quash the debate. Anytime players want to make a stand on a topic provides information for the town to work with. Leaning scum.

Hayker opens by committing and pointing out his own scumtell. He takes issue with rolf's quick push from RVS even while complimenting rolf's reasoning. RVS is necessary to spark discussion but with Mastin around RVS doesn't need to be too long. There was already plenty to comment on. This is no reason to believe a player to be scum and Hayker should move on. He as made enough posts without moving beyond this initial issue and for that I

Vote: Hayker

.

Working my way forward, more coming.

I disgree with you on Mastins wall fo texts. I find them useful, and actually enjoy reading them. He has a sort of chaotic logic, which is somewhat similer to my own. But has differences, as we are indeed different people

I dislike Rofl tunneling, but I have no power over that. His wanting to eliminate the Kahn miller debate I find anti-town. As people have said, it's never a waste of time to question a role claim. I agree on the leaning to scum(but he's not my only suspect right now). In case you wanna know about my lack of opinion on the miller subject, this is my first game with a miller. Well if I include epic mafia, first game with a miller that knows he's a miller. So really I don't know much about that subject, and am currently looking at others opinions on that subject.

And as I have said(though not as clearly), it wasn't just the abrupt ending of the RVS, and it wasn't just the wanting to lynch Mastin. It was the two combined. The fact that I didn't move on is that I didn't find anything particularily scummy about the other people on at the time. I intend to re-read last nights bantering and see if my opinion differs now that I've slept a little.

[Hayker]

And Hayker continues to add totally nothing except for opinions that are easy to back-track.
Good second choice.

I didn't add anything sicne the first post of page 5(I think, I might have made another post somewher eon 5, but I'm too lazy to check right now. Will corretc later if nescesary)

Opinions that are easy to back-track? Could you explain exactly what this means? My apologies, but despite english being my first(and only) language, I have only a basic grasp of how to use it.

[Hayker]

I'm saying your attack on Mastin is scummy because it started on the first post of the second stage. The RVS didn't even seem over at that point, yet you just claimed it was.

So what in the 18 posts after this post ended the RVS to you and why?

That post indeed ended it. It just didn't seem quite over before he ended it. But things like that change things.

[Hayker]

He's scummy because of saying the RVS was over, when it clearly wasn't to the majority of the players.

Nah, Rofl just got the memo first that the RVS was over, as the mod always sends a PM first to the scum, and afterwards to the townies. Which means Rofl claimed scum, and Hayker is town. Let''s lynch ahead[/sarcasm]

My opinion is that there''s no general borderline of the RVS. And I see no reason why this should be scummy.

Sarcasm aside. Rofl seemed to set a distinct border. Reasons have been explained as to why I found it scummy.

[Hayker]

The RVS didn't even seem over at that point, yet you just claimed it was.

To be fair, in any game I am in, the RVS will last only a maximum of three pages.

I don't believe voting at this stage is a scum tell John.

And most agree with you. I imagine some disagree, but not many will. Whether it's a null tell or a town tell, now, THERE you will find some disagreement.

Especially because this is a hard game with the current majority being 12.

Players?
We've had less than that?
Needed to lynch?
That's 11.

What were you saying?

RVS with you noted.

I'm not exactly sure how I typed what I did beyond being tired.

It shoulda said this is a large game with the current majority beign 11. Hard-large and 12-11. Pretty dumb errors of me to do.

[Hayker]

Okay so I'm all caught up on things that address me. I'll post some opinions on some stuff about things with some nouns.

[Hayker]

Okay so I'm all caught up on things that address me. I'll post some opinions on some stuff about things with some nouns. Not even sure why I clicked post there.

I'll post some stuff in a bit, my mom is yelling at me to do some yard work so see you guys in a bit(with like 5 more pages to read I bet)

[Mastin]

Also there's a shit load of people who have yet to post. This game has started pretty damn fast.

Mafia rule # 242:

If Mastin is in a game, the game will go very fast.
Mafia rule #342: If Both Mastin AND ZazieR are in a game, that game will get ten pages per day.

Whoa! 5 pages already?

That would be mostly my fault.

Man! I'll read through them all... when I can...

Yea...

But first of all, yay! A mafia doctor (or whatever it is) has been eliminated!

This is the reverse-"well, that sucks"-tell.

Auto-FoS: ckool.

It's alright to be happy that a mafia doctor is dead.
To EXPRESS that, however, is scummy.

i would like you to read it and then explain why you think its still in the town's best interest to spend time and energy debating the miller claim.

Oh, I don't think we should waste time debating it--I think we should, however, keep an eye on Khan for it.

Do you consider someone self-metaing as a defence to be scummy?

Of course not. I do it all the time.

Would you consider someone defending you by saying "It's Mastin's meta" to be scummy?

Rather the opposite, I'd consider that person fairly pro-town instantly.

Would you consider someone attacking you by saying "Mastin's meta is different" to be scummy?

Wrong?
Yes.
Scummy?
Not really.

Would you consider someone attacking you by saying "Mastin's playing to his scum meta" to be scummy?

Wrong?
Definitely.
Scummy?
Possibly, but probably not.
Depends on how they present the case.

If your answer isn't the same for all the above questions, give a reason why.

Must I do that again?
*shrugs*
I hate repeating myself a million times on the subject. I can do it if necessary.

@Wickedestjr: You are a very cautious player.

That's a scum tell.

It's Confirmation Bias.
I just linked it in my earlier post.

I'd think that anyone with the title Mafia Scum should've at least seen it once.

I had initially overlooked this post, but Kublai Khan and FA bringing it up made me re-look at it. Very definite possible scumslip, right there.

i believe Mastin mentioned somthing about to mafia factions early on.

The difference is,
I did it in the RVS. I was joking.
You did it seriously, out of the RVS.
That's a scum tell.

if he's serious about the game

I'm serious once I say the RVS is over...for the most part.

or what color his socks are...

I wear two layers of socks (Washington got some COLD weather this winter.)--the outer layer is always white, the inner layer is sometimes white, sometimes gray.

Also, Mastin had a link to some of his town tell/scum tells

Yup, Mastin's Insane Tells. Most people ignore it, though. :/

I've managed to confuse myself with my last post. Allow me to rephrase the second half: "One of Mastin's town-tells was that someone sticks with what they were betting was true. You're pretty sure that it was an opposing faction. So does that make you more likely to be town?"

That actually makes sense. (Though the tell you mention was meant to apply to people taking/offering bets. I suppose it can be extended in the future.)



If this is a serious tell from this guy, ckool and I will get along rather well.

*Raises hand*
Here.
High five Mastin for keeping the activity high, while I was offline

High five ZazieR for keeping activity high while I was offline!

And yeah, that''s Rofl for you

I am not really surprised.

Mastin listed you as a member of Mafia A and you weren't sure if he was completely joking?

That is a good point.

I took Mastin's opening post as a joke calling out and ribbing people he had a history and was familiar with.

Actually, Mafia's a player I haven't seen before. I listed him because his name starts with M as well as mine.

But, yea, it generally involves people I've played with.

You're making some pretty reaching arguments which seem to betray a deeper knowledge of the game and it's setup than I've got. All I know is that there are 3 kills. Since the flavor is pretty minimal, the fact that the Cerulean Mafia has a name would strongly indicate that there are at least 2 mafia groups. The third kill could be a serial killer, a vigilante, or a third mafia group. The listed causes of death (Slaughtered/Murdered/Annihilated) give us no hints as to which group did what.

We can, however, make the assumption that the Cerulean mafia didn't kill themselves, meaning they made one of the other kills.

Your wild speculation about multiple mafia doctors is unhelpful

Well...I like symmetrical mafia teams as a player. (As a mod, not so much, but that's just to mess with the players. )

Why aren't you rejoicing that we have a lucky vig?

For someone who just criticized two players for assuming who did the kill...
This seems like rather the assumption.

And for Mod's sake, ckool5000, are you seriously following someone else's list of wiki scum & town tells while you're playing in a game with that same person? WTF?

I see nothing wrong with it. If you play with Tar, are you forbidden to use his Standard Tells? Not really. (Then again, Tar's a more established player than I am. Still...)

Finally caught up.

Oh, wow. Someone read all of what I said? That takes skill.

I was afraid Mastin would come back and start posting again before I finished.

Zaz works as well, you know.

Mastin's wall of text annoys me to no end

The day I see someone enjoy my walls will be a surprise to me.

but there is nothing inherently scummy about it.

I find long posts rather pro-town.

Since it is his MO it is a null tell.

Yea, pretty much. I'd have long posts as scum as well in an effort to look pro-town.

At least it has sparked discussion rather quickly.

Oh, I LOVE it when people see the true purpose of my tactics!

Dissecting his posts

I like dissecting. Dissecting's cool. I do it all the time in my posts.

it is mostly fluff

Early-on, of course.
Later-on, I became more serious.

Now, I'm in full scum-hunting mode.

but there is some scum hunting buried in there.

And with luck, this will increase throughout the day. Depends on how much others choose to joke.

I'll consider him pro-town for now.

Good assumption.

rolfcopter is tunneling.

Yea, tell me about it. :/

I have no problem with this.

I have no problem with his tunneling. His choice of targets, now that's a little more worrisome to me. <_<

I do have a problem with his citing of single cases to prove his points on tunneling and scum calling.

I've pointed out the flaw in that logic as well.

Furthermore, there are differing viewpoints on the miller roleclaim so there is no reason to quash the debate.

Eh, I'd prefer not to discuss the claim, but the person instead--is Khan scummy, or not?, instead of Is Khan's claim scummy, or not?

Anytime players want to make a stand on a topic provides information for the town to work with.

Eh, I wouldn't say always, but I would say it happens most of the time.

Leaning scum.

Meh, he's leaning town to me due to meta.

Hayker opens by committing and pointing out his own scumtell.

Yea, it does look a tad bit bad, doesn't it?

He takes issue with rolf's quick push from RVS even while complimenting rolf's reasoning.

Like I've explained, I don't really see the problem with that.

RVS is necessary to spark discussion

Not necessary--just fairly important.

but with Mastin around RVS doesn't need to be too long.

Yea, pretty much.
(Oh, how I wish I could fit all of the comments like this in my sig...)

Working my way forward, more coming.

Wait, I thought you said you were caught up?

And, well, you commented on three players.

What about the rest of the people who have posted? At the time of that post,

Achilles, ckool, Empking, FA, Far, Hayker, Johnny, Kise, Kublai Khan, Mafia, Me, Rofl, Wicked, and Zazie.

And Hayker continues to add totally nothing except for opinions that are easy to back-track.
Good second choice.

I actually agree. I don't agree with the rofl inconsistency point against him, but he is a suspect of mine.

Johnny Rotten's last post is a terrible one.

There's a reason I am voting him.

Advocating the lynch of a player you don't think is scum is wrong.

And scummy.

Furthermore, he holds off on voting on it because he wants to hear how others feel is fear of commitment, which both interferes with forming lasting relationships and is a scum tell.

I wouldn't call it always a scum tell.
In a game of this size, though, it is at least scummy.

Achilles is likely going to be lurking.

A shame if true; I liked his post.

And you shouldn't trust Mastin's tells.

People are free to trust my tells if they want to. They're insane, and I'd be surprised if even two other than myself do, but still, my MITs can be used by anyone if they wish to.

@ZazieR: Way to look for convenient bandwagons to hop on.

If you were a convenient wagon, you'd have far more votes than you currently do. (One.)

Quoted For Truth.

well seems you guys have been quite active.

My fault, along with Zaz.

Mastin your sarcasm can create confusion

In the RVS, my jokes and sarcasm are mostly marked, but can be possibly not.
Out of the RVS, I always mark them appropriately.

Why do you push for this point, when there's no sarcasm not marked as such that means anything?

[sarcasm]Perhaps I should stop using sarcasm because it's apparently a scum tell.[/sarcasm]

Jesus Mastin.

XP

Need to cut the crap.

:/

Your obviously mafia. xD

...

K. so. I'm gonna have to go re-read through all this crap.

If you've read it, surely you have SOMETHING to contribute?

FoS: Empking's Alt.
I post reasons later

I am looking forward to it.

mastin, tell me how many people i have to be suspicious of before i'm no longer "tunneling" on each and every one of them?

If you focus on the same group of players until they're dead (which you did in Lynch all Lurkers, for the most part), and pretty much refuse to consider other suspects, and refuse to listen to the logic of those you are accusing, that's tunneling.

because you just went down my various and changing suspicions throughout the later parts of lynch all lurkers and labeled each of them as individually tunneling.

The thing is...
The suspicions didn't change.
They stayed the same.

i would say that being vocally suspicious of more than one person and pursuing cases on these people all at once is in fact the exact opposite of tunneling.

...No, if you do it consistently on those same people throughout the game, and not on others...that's still tunneling. It's just a wide tunnel with multiple people instead of one.

but if i see continued evidence that you are scum (which i do)

ANY post written by ANY player, no matter HOW good it is, can STILL be picked apart and labeled as scummy if done correctly.
You can see evidence anywhere.

If your evidence is unlikely/improbable/illogical/etc./not the best conclusion, then more likely than not, it's going to be tunneling.

i will continue to present it and will not be dissuaded simply by you or anyone else telling me to stop with the tunnel-vision and i will not be dissuaded by you stating that your own defense is valid and therefore i should back off.

I have no problem with pursuing your targets.
Pursuing your targets, refusing to listen to their logic, coming to the most scummy conclusion instead of the most probable one,
Now,
THAT is a problem.

I find them useful

As do I.

and actually enjoy reading them.

...Remember my earlier point?

Yea.
This is the day that I will be surprised.

He has a sort of chaotic logic

Insane, really.
Mastin:
Insane Rampage.

which is somewhat similer to my own.

I'm really starting to like some of the players in this game who have similar beliefs as mine.

---

Okay, I am caught up. That took a while.

[MafiaMann]

Just because something is said in RVS i shouldnt pay attention to it?

[roflcopter]

pretty sure faraday is town at this point

[MafiaMann]

pretty sure faraday is town at this point

can i ask why

[roflcopter]

pretty sure faraday is town at this point

can i ask why

gut read

[Mastin]

Only scum or bad town will put weight into my RVS comments.

Agreed.

Moving on, shall we?
Johnny needs to post more. In fact, LOTS of people need to post more.

[MafiaMann]

Only scum or bad town will put weight into my RVS comments.

Agreed.

Moving on, shall we?
Johnny needs to post more. In fact, LOTS of people need to post more.

1 I was part of a game called international mafia in which we had 15 pages in pre game of good info i dont find anything wrong with reading into RVS a little other wise whats the points of RVS.

2 you agree that fardays town? On what basis same as rofl gut feeling.

3 yes it seems we have 4 or 5 people who post a decent amount

[Kise]

And don't worry, Khan. I won't kill ya.

Uh.. Are you claiming a killing role?

Well, either I'm a killer who will neglect killing you, or I don't have killing-powers so therefore I couldn't attempt to kill ya anyway But now it looks like you rolefished..... and I committed entrapment.... and you took the bait.... but we're still cool. Let's move right along.

Do you think if he was scum he is making a good move.

Yes, because there will be many players who are suspicious of him due to the claim, but more won't be suspicious as it is seen as a pro-town move to claim miller before a cop investigation has been revealed.
Which means that an opposing scumteam kill would be very unlikely

You think there's 2 scum teams? Don't break my heart here Zazie... what do you know???

Oh boy... I think I just gave Mastin more ammo for his next posts,

lol

. I bet it'll be a thick read.

To me, saying "lol" in your first two sentences when there wasn't a joke in the previous is a slight scum-tell, since it sub-consciously lures the town into believing that you're like them or something like that...

I've always wanted to point that out in someone's post, but never got a chance to until now.

But..... what's wrong with laughing at [regretfully] giving Mastin more ammo to type about? Trying to point out a trivial-scumtell = a scumtell. Shame on you!

I'm keeping the vote on Rotten for those comments he made (in the post where he says he wants Mastin lynched; can't be bothered to link or quote. You all know which post I'm referring to, hopefully).

Wicked speaks quite strangely.. I feel like giving him the finger (of suspicion, of course ) but I won't judge someone who hasn't posted much, and only commented on the Miller issue.

I get the feeling that rofl & Far are town. They'll be useful players for the town. And, despite how positive I feel about Mastin, I'm not sure what I can say to convince or persuade rofl. I'll leave it up to him to have faith in Mastin.

FoS: MafiaMann

-- Needless speculation and focusing too much on useless material from RVS/Night 0.

IGMEO

ckool.... just saying..

[MafiaMann]

What does IGMEO mean i couldnt find it in the wiki

[Mastin]

1 I was part of a game called international mafia in which we had 15 pages in pre game of good info i dont find anything wrong with reading into RVS a little other wise whats the points of RVS.

The point of the RVS is to get discussion going.

People intentionally do random/scummy stuff to accomplish this.

Which is why, in serious scum hunting, you ignore the RVS.

2 you agree that fardays town?

Yes.

On what basis

His posts. I linked in one of my posts above one of his posts, and said that posts/quotes such as the one provided make me think he's pro-town. He raises good points, amongst others.

That enough of a basis for you?

same as rofl gut feeling.

Well, yea, my gut's backing up my reasoning--a good tell meaning that my read on the player which my gut backs up my reasoning...is probably going to be correct.

3 yes it seems we have 4 or 5 people who post a decent amount

This was not the point.
The point is that we have only eighteen of twenty-one living players saying anything, and that of those, many needed to post a lot more.

You think there's 2 scum teams?

Yea. The Mafia Doctor flip gave a very specific type of mafia. Meaning likely more than one faction exists.

Don't break my heart here Zazie

Fine, Zaz, just shatter it instead of breaking it.

what do you know???

Zaz knows to read the results of night zero post, that's what.

But..... what's wrong with laughing at [regretfully] giving Mastin more ammo to type about?

Use emotes, like my wink.

Trying to point out a trivial-scumtell = a scumtell. Shame on you!

So you think pointing out my MITs is a scumtell?

I'm keeping the vote on Rotten for those comments he made

And I agree.

(in the post where he says he wants Mastin lynched;

Yea, we know.

can't be bothered to link or quote.

I already did this.

You all know which post I'm referring to, hopefully).

Yup.

Wicked speaks quite strangely

I agree.

I feel like giving him the finger (of suspicion, of course

It was noteworthy. FoS-worthy, not so sure.

but I won't judge someone who hasn't posted much

Isn't the fact that he hasn't said much enough to judge him already? :/

and only commented on the Miller issue.

When there were many other issues to address, mind you.

I get the feeling that rofl & Far are town.

I do as well.

They'll be useful players for the town.

Far, yes. Rofl, only if he stops tunneling on me. <_<

And, despite how positive I feel about Mastin

Yay.

I'm not sure what I can say to convince or persuade rofl.

I don't know if there is a way, Kise.

I'll leave it up to him to have faith in Mastin.

Yea...probably not happening. :/

FoS: MafiaMann

Quoted for truth.

Needless speculation and focusing too much on useless material from RVS/Night 0.

Not exactly the reason I'd give.

IGMEO ckool.... just saying..

Aww, but he's soo much like me...

---

Going to eat my supper, now.

[ckool5000]

If this is a serious tell from this guy, ckool and I will get along rather well.

It

is

a serious tell...

[ckool5000]

Oh yeah, what's IGMEO?

[ckool5000]

Actually, it's not THAT serious of a tell, I just really wanted to say that about someone's post... But that is something to point out, and adds a point to the "Suspicion of Kublai Khan-o-meter".