Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[kikuchiyo]

You had no evidence against Hero other than that he attacked you! Does it make sense for a protown player to push a case like that? Why are you trying to kill off, very specifically, those who are voting for you?

Um, no. I attacked Hero for his "charitable" interpretations of FC's ambiguous statements. Not quite sure how you missed that since I've posted it time and time again. Trying to present my argument as omgus when my reasons were repeatedly and clearly laid out is scummy. I don't believe FC voted for me. I have also not brought a case against Tenchi, so your second question is kind of stupid seeing as the only people I find suspicious who happen to be voting me are you and Hero.

Your bullet point summary is flawed and represents only your opinion. Where have I "made nice with Hero"?

The fact that you would be willing to allow Tenchi's vote to contribute to a player being at L-1 is a bit scummy. No strawman here.

It would reflect badly on his towniness if he placed it randomly and then held it there, even as the votee accumulated a wagon.

That is exactly what he is doing and yet you are willing to let it stand as opposed to question his motivations. I am willing to buy the rl excuse at this time, but that doesn't change the fact that he has still left his vote floating since the rvs.

Its funny how you keep accusing me of "avoiding" issues when you are clearly avoiding any discussion about your giant hypocritical scum slip.

What issues haven't I addressed for you? Please present them in a pbp fashion and I will respond. As of yet, your posts seem to be more hypocritical mudslinging than anything.

[Mokina]

I don't believe FC voted for me

. I have also not brought a case against Tenchi, so your second question is kind of stupid seeing as the only people I find suspicious who happen to be voting me are you and Hero.

He didn't. You didn't attack him, you attacked Hero, then switched targets when he let off and I started pointing out your weak-argument defense. You vote for the person voting you rather than addressing their suspicions, and that's both antitown and another reason for me to make a case against you.

I have also not brought a case against Tenchi, so your second question is kind of stupid seeing as the only people I find suspicious who happen to be voting me are you and Hero.

I have no doubt right now that Tenchi's going to unvote and write some stuff when he comes back, regardless of alignment. Even if Tenchi's town, you aren't worried about him at the moment - it would look far too suspect to go active and not immediately unvote.

That is exactly what he is doing and yet you are willing to let it stand as opposed to question his motivations. I am willing to buy the rl excuse at this time, but that doesn't change the fact that he has still left his vote floating since the rvs.

And yes, you read that correctly. For once, I completely agree with you. It would indeed look scummy if he held it there even as an active player, and I certainly expect an analysis and replacement of his vote when he returns. As of now, though, it means nothing because he hasn't read our quote war. You can't exactly attack him for having that vote, seeing as he's V/LA.

Its funny how you keep accusing me of "avoiding" issues when you are clearly avoiding any discussion about your giant hypocritical scum slip.

Sigh, okay.

Tell you what. I'll give you a PBPA of my points against you if you give me the same for your case against me. No strawman, just tell it how it is. I will even throw in a free list of suspicions, just for you.

Give me a moment ...

[nadroj15]

Mokina -- please explain your slip. If you have already, I apologize for missing it.

Kiku -- The reason that line bothered me is because it seems like a scum thing to say. If you are scum, and you get Mokina lynched, and she flips town, you could say "She was town, but her behavior was screwing us over." A Get Out Of Jail Free card if people call you out on leading the Mokina bandwagon.

[kikuchiyo]

Kiku -- The reason that line bothered me is because it seems like a scum thing to say. If you are scum, and you get Mokina lynched, and she flips town, you could say "She was town, but her behavior was screwing us over." A Get Out Of Jail Free card if people call you out on leading the Mokina bandwagon.

Understandable. But if she were to flip town I could make the same argument regardless of whether or not I had made that statement. As it stands I don't see her as flipping town. She's agreed to post her case against me, yet still has not addressed the "slip".

Further:

He didn't. You didn't attack him, you attacked Hero, then switched targets when he let off and I started pointing out your weak-argument defense.

I attacked FC. The evendence exists in this thread.

And yes, you read that correctly. For once, I completely agree with you. It would indeed look scummy if he held it there even as an active player, and I certainly expect an analysis and replacement of his vote when he returns. As of now, though, it means nothing because he hasn't read our quote war.

You can't exactly attack him for having that vote, seeing as he's V/LA.

I am not attacking Tenchi. I do not expect others to "attack" him, but am pointing out that both you and Hero have ignored the issue until I raised it.

Someone else has already posted the case on you and you have not responded to it. Add to the "slip" previously referred to, the fact that you are continuously misrepresenting what I have been posting.

[dank]

I don't want to get accused of giving Mokina the benefit of the doubt,

but you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement

. She could've meant, for instance, that while kiku's initial accusation could've been townish, the fact that she kept pushing after being shown she was wrong was scummy. Scum can find cases against people too and base them on something worthwhile. Townies can make themselves look scummy when they aren't.

Are Mokina's actions questionable? Yes, very. But I find kiku's continuous scumminess much more of a grounds for a lynch than this.

Hero, are you

seriously

arguing that there is more than one way to interpret something?

really

?

[dank]

(Analysis post coming later tonight)

[qwints]

Wow, lots of activity.

I second dank's reaction to Hero defending Mokina.

I don't think either Mokina or Kiku come out looking good from their fight - I think both are engaging in some pretty blatant misrepresentation.

[Wiirdo]

Vote:Lowell

for active lurking and suspicious posts.

Um, Wiirdo, I'm not sure if this is ur 1st game, but this sounds strange. U urself hav been lurking (a little), and then go and vote for someone else doing the same.

Alright, hypothetically your biggest suspicions are Lowell and myself. So you think we may be scum.

It would make no sense whatsoever to vote for somebody who is also on my side, or at least thought to be.

[Hero764]

Alright, fuck it. This isn't going to end well at all.

Claim: Mason

Me and Mokina. She can confirm.

[qwints]

That actually explains a lot. I'm very interested in how Neku will react to this.

[Mokina]

I guess it's too late to drop tells.

Reciprocate: Hero

. I am a mason with Hero. Breadcrumb in 186, top to bottom, reads [ME + HERO].

In truth, Mokina knows nothing about the scum other than Hero's innocence. First time playing mason and I had to go chainsaw-defend Hero like an idiot, demonstrating some pretty obvious alignment knowledge. I apologize for not playing like a proper informed minority, and I am fully aware that one of us will be dead tonight.

Also, who am I kidding?

Unvote

. Kiku's argument would have convinced me if it weren't for the confirmation bias of knowing Hero's motivations.

[Mokina]

Understandable. But if she were to flip town I could make the same argument regardless of whether or not I had made that statement. As it stands I don't see her as flipping town. She's agreed to post her case against me, yet still has not addressed the "slip".

Slip was a tell that I knew Hero's alignment. What with your obsession with finding linked roles, I thought you might pick it up ... but in retrospect, there wasn't much chance of that. We'd already tunnel visioned each other.

[kikuchiyo]

Hm.

unvote.

Very bold move if you are scum. Understand you are not wholly confirmed, but until evidence is presented otherwise I am playing with both of you as town. With that I have to assume that scum have been watching this argument with glee and perhaps egging it on. My suspect list has to narrow, and some rereading will help.

Also, i am looking at the player list and I am seeing that there are players who have all but dissappeared through this entire argument. Explanations from the lurkers should be forthcoming. Did either of our masons glean any information over the last however many pages we've been arguing?

[Wiirdo]

Hmm, this is bound to change the game up quite a bit.

NOTE: Also, Hero, I see your avatar is from the Black Hole Sun video. Soundgarden are my favorite band ever. Superunknown is just unbelievable.

[Hero764]

I still think you're scummy, kiku. I'm not actually entirely sure why Mokina thinks you're town, perhaps she should elaborate?

As for information gained, the lurkers look pretty bad, especially Lowell. Far_Cry looks like supernewb, Wiirdo hasn't done really anything(btw Soundgarden is the shit dude, not as good as STP though ), and I'm inclined to believe Tenchi's story because it would be pretty low to lie about that just to get out of being prodded. I really would like to hear more from all of them though.

I might do a reread as well.

[dank]

First a few notes:

kik, why did you want to lynch/claim so soon, when we still have so much time left?

At the time I asked I was feeling confident that Hero was scum. I can't lynch someone on my own, that takes votes, and bandwagon analysis can be a large part of this game. I got to a point in my argument with Hero where I thought he was simply avoiding the issue. I never overstated my case on Hero. It was built on two separate incidents where he "charitably" interpreted the ambiguous statements of another player. In fact, both incidents occurred with the same player, so I don't see how my call for lynch or claim was "rushed". Further, this line of questioning ignores the fact that I did in fact unvote, and promote discussion of other players actions. i.e I could have kept pushing, I believe Hero was at L-1 or L-2 at some point.

Alright, so you were feeling confident that Hero was scum, based on two incidents (that I agree with you were not pro-town). You later unvoted to promote more discussion (also agreed was the right move) and later placed your vote on someone you thought was more scummy.

My issue is that even though you later changed your mind, you were pushing for a lynch very early, one that you are not pushing for now. It makes no sense to push for a lynch at first, and then unvote for more discussion, like you say you did. It's backtracking in a way. It almost seems like there was an opportune chance for a quick lynch early in the day, and you wanted to quickly take it, but when it didn't work, you backtracked away from lynching him. That is looking pretty suspicious.

Next, regarding Hero's "you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement", he explained why he did that with the roleclaim, so that's understandable. However, by saying that, he awknowledges that he DOES understand the concept he spent pages and pages ignoring, he just for some reason thinks it doesnt apply at all to FC. In a way, this makes his defense of FC even stranger.

Hero, why were you unwilling to interpret FC's statement differently when you're admitting that a statement can be interpreted differently?

I will

unvote

for now, however I am not fully sold on the mason claim. If scum, Hero's been hearing "claim mason!" for many many pages, and it wouldn't even be that bold of a scum move, just a very smart one. He perhaps decides to do that, and if Mokina is scum partners with him, she just follows when he said "Mokina will confirm". We can't just assume he's being 100% accurate and ignore his previous play which has been scummy, it could be a very opportunistic fakeclaim is all.

That said, for now I believe him enough to not push a lynch in his direction, but I will pay attention to him/Mokina on the reread to see if it all adds up.

Post coming soon.

[nadroj15]

Unvote.

I'm going to reread to see if I can figure anything new out with this added info.

[Hero764]

Hero, why were you unwilling to interpret FC's statement differently when you're admitting that a statement can be interpreted differently?

He first statement? I believe I did admit that I was wrong about that. If not I'll do it now. If you mean the whole thing about him stating his experience and such, I did not interpret anything there,

I only pointed out that his posts did not contradict eachother

. That's not an interpretation, that's looking at the damn facts. I've stated this over and over again.

[dank]

Uh uh, its an interpretation that I, kik, and probably a few others have explained to you. ONCE again:

1st statement can either mean: Hey, this is my first game on this site, but I've played elsewhere.

OR

Hey, this is my first game on this site, i'm new to mafia.

If you believe the first INTERPRETATION, then yes, they don't contradict each other. If you believe the second INTERPRETATION, then they do.

You were unwilling to consider the second INTERPRETATION that others explained they had thought he meant.

Don't argue this further, if you disagree, just say you disagree. I don't want another argument blowing up over it. This is my opinion, you have yours.

But I really don't like that you seem to consider alternate interpretations for only select posts.

[Hero764]

Here, I'll fix it for you:

1st statement can either mean: Hey, this is my first game on this site,

but I've played elsewhere.

OR

Hey, this is my first game on this site,

i'm new to mafia.

Why are you tacking extra stuff onto his initial statement? That's why you think he contradicted himself, because you apparently have a problem with reading stuff as they are. His first post, taken for what it really means DOES NOT contradict his second, no matter which way you look at it.

[dank]

"I think the reason you went about your argument the way you did is that you honestly believe your accusation was based on something worthwhile." completely goes against the argument Mokina had been making.

Here, i'll fix it for you:

I don't want to get accused of giving Mokina the benefit of the doubt, but you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement. She could've meant, for instance, that while kiku's initial accusation could've been townish,

the fact that she kept pushing after being shown she was wrong was scummy. Scum can find cases against people too and base them on something worthwhile. Townies can make themselves look scummy when they aren't.

Are Mokina's actions questionable? Yes, very. But I find kiku's continuous scumminess much more of a grounds for a lynch than this.

Why are you tacking extra stuff onto her initial statement?

[Hero764]

Lol, you suck at that. I didn't tack anything on to her statement.

I was bullshitting though to try and save her from being lynched w/o having to claim. Are we in agreeance that I wasn't interpretting anything though?

[dank]

Just because you were saving her doesnt mean you didn't

add things that she did not flat out say

. Though it may be bullshit, it is something that you added that COULD be interpreted from what she did say.

[Hero764]

What point are you trying to make anyways?

[dank]

Does that mean i'm right? No rebuttal?

My point is that you ignored an interpretation of FC's statement. Your defense of this was that there was nothing to interpret, and refused to acknowledge those that were interpreting his statement differently. You basically refused to understand the concept of interpreting a post that could be vague.

By posting an interpretation of another possible vague post by Mokina, and flat out saying that posts can be interpreted differently, even if it was in defense of a Mason, the argument that you don't understand the concept that we were trying to explain to you is null. It becomes apparent that you simply ignored the arguments about interpreting FC's statement differently; you understood them fully (since you did the exact same thing we did with Mokina's post). Whether it was bullshit defense or not, you proved that your defense of your argument against kik's or my interpretation of FC's post ("I dont understand how you can interpret it!") no longer stands. Which means, your defense of FC makes absolutely no logical sense, and is far more suspicious than originally thought. You knowingly played stupid to defend him, when you understood exactly what we were trying to say.

That's my point.