Newbie 798 - Michael Jackson Memorial Mafia (Game Over)

[moose200x]

Also,

IC tip:

it's usually extremely helpful if, when quoting a person, you include the name of the person you're quoting so that when people read your posts in isolation, they can know who or what you were responding to.

Fine, ya caught me, I was being very lazy

[fhqwhgads]

Blah blah blah OMG FHQWHGADS IS SCUM blah blah blah

First, I'm not going to restate the reason for voting The Many. You can read back (and not in isolation). Seeing as The Many had the biggest wagon going, it would seem that someone agreed with me. Besides, you seem hell bent on finding small (and inevitable) ambiguities in what one says to build a case.

On your case. Random voting, meh, it's random voting.

On lurking. You got me. I don't like lurkers. You know why I don't like lurkers? Because I can't get a read off them. QED nulltell. So I'm trying to isolate lurkers and get them replaced so we can get some content from everyone. Or so we can separate the active lurkers from the flakers.

Having said that, I just filtered fhqwhgads's posts and I am totally prepared to sheep on you. unvote; vote: fhqwhgads

Nice.

Fine. I say we lynch FHQ and if he is town string up ol' incognito the next day.

Nice, with players like these, we'll get scum in no-time!

I know I mentioned that I'm almost certain you're town, but I'd seriously be careful with this line of thinking as it almost looks like you're making an attempt to set up future lynches.

Oh wait, it's scummy to point out coaching, right? You guys?? RIGHT?!

I'm not liking incog's buddying with ether. With a newbie townie (that's at least one point we agree on) following the pressure in the form of moose, they have the potential to steamroller this game nicely.

But I suppose I shouldn't complain. At least SOMETHING'S happening.

[Ether]

Moose, in general, it's unreasonable to attack someone on the basis of being wrong, assuming its train of thought made sense and you agreed with it and all that stuff. (Obviously there are exceptions, like if attacker if it claimed a rock-solid meta that other people didn't know about and was proven wrong. Actually, Incognito hasn't invoked meta at all, and I know they've played at least one game together. I'd be curious to hear his take.)

I don't think he's wrong, though. I am liking my vote. I am liking it quite a bit. I am damn proud in my taste in sheeping on people.

(The second-biggest thing that clinched my Fhqwhate is something Incognito didn't bring up at all, actually. I've just started page 6 at this point. Don't hold your breaths a fancy summary post at the end; I was taking notes early on but it degenerated into educational corrections pretty quickly.)

Fhq needs to post a List.

[fhqwhgads]

I like this "vote first, get bandwagon rolling and explain actions later" gameplay. I must remember it next time I'm scum.

[fhqwhgads]

Oh, sorry for the double post:

List of what?

[Ether]

Hey, stay around for a bit, 'kay? I'm still reading, and I probably won't focus all my attention on you since I'm almost done. In the meantime, I'm still waiting for that List.

[Ether]

Arrange every player in the game in order of scummiest to towniest. You can give comments if you're confused about certain groupings, et cetera. I don't mind extra words.

[fhqwhgads]

Tbh, there's not a lot that's happened before the two of you replaced in this game. I'll do that later today when I'm not at work, although I can tell you now, I usually don't like to speculate on scum pairings this early in the game (yeah, shoot me for pointing out the buddying between you and Incog. Just because it's true, it doesn't mean it's scummy.)

Btw, ether, are you a newbie or an IC?

[Seregil]

I'll come by later today and post although I probably won't restate why I voted TheMany because I did that already.

[Ether]

See, I don't think you can say nothing's happened anymore when you have literally voted half the other players in the game (Incognito, Facebook, Seregil, Moose), none of them randomly, as well as at different points expressing suspicion against Fiend and now me. You should be perfectly capable of making a List.

I am qualified to IC, but actually using that title jinxes me. So we say I'm semi-experienced.

[Ether]

Seregil, what do you think of the Fhqwagon?

[Ether]

Anyway, Moose is town, The Many/Incognito is probably town, I feel obligated to temporarily write off McRookie for that goon question even though I don't really understand it. Thoooooooooooose newbflakes.

Fhq's Moosevote in 99 is the single worst post in the game. Many's flip to Facebook is a bit weird, but he's the first person who decided to read Moose as town and that is pretty cool. Therefore the Manywagon was stupid.

Of the people I haven't covered--{Facebook, Giskard, Imaginary Fiend, Seregil}--Giskard sets me on edge, especially later on. I haven't filtered the other three, though.

I do want Incognito to explain his town read on Wolframn.

[Ether]

See I was about to say "Fhq isn't on so I'm going to bed now that it's 8:00 am here," except now he's back. Damn him.

[fhqwhgads]

Ether, go to bed. I'm still at work. It's almost 15:00 here now. I've got a social call tonight as well, so if I do that post, it will be latish.

[Giskard]

vote: fhqwhgads

Incognito made some very detailed and thorough arguments when casting his(?) vote. Your only real response was basically brush all of his points aside without really responding to them, except for some brief discussion about why you think lurking is both bad and not bad ("who's bad") at the same time. Then you tried to shift the focus back on Incognito by bringing up coaching.

[Incognito]

First, I'm not going to restate the reason for voting The Many. You can read back (and not in isolation). Seeing as The Many had the biggest wagon going, it would seem that someone agreed with me.

Okay, so let's have a look back, shall we?

Your reasoning for voting The Many:

That being said, I don't like the facebook wagon at all. For the same reason that I didn't like the attack on 'non participating' people. I do approve of pressure on the Many, however.

unvote, vote:the Many

...

So... your reasoning for voting The Many was because... you disapprove of the facebook wagon that he joined and because you approve of pressure on The Many? That's not reasoning at all. I fail to see how you could disapprove of The Many's so-called "attack on non-participating people" when lurking has been something you've apparently had a gripe with since the start of the game. I mean really, you don't call people out on something that you're now claiming you consider to be a null-tell; you call people out on things that you find to be

genuinely scummy

, which, I'm assuming is how you initially claimed you feel about lurking. I think you're backtracking here with your sudden "I think lurking is a null-tell" and trying to concoct ways to sew together cases against people.

Oh wait, it's scummy to point out coaching, right? You guys?? RIGHT?!

I think moose is town. The typical, somewhat lazy attack that someone would make on a post like moose's 196 would be "OMG setting up future mislynches", but since I think he's town, I'm going to assume that he's just a newbie who didn't completely think about the consequences of what he was saying. Therefore, I'm trying to teach him that something like that could be seen as scummy in some circles and would be something he'd want to avoid. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I'm not liking incog's buddying with ether. With a newbie townie (that's at least one point we agree on) following the pressure in the form of moose, they have the potential to steamroller this game nicely.

So do you think Ether and I are scum or what? Why aren't you voting either one of us?

This feels more like you're trying to employ some kind of scare tactic rather than genuinely determine our alignments by claiming that we could potentially steamroll the game since you haven't even followed suit with this accusation with a vote or any line of questioning.

-~-~-~-~-~

On 'mid-way through my post' preview, I see that Giskard has also voted fhq. I don't want to lynch him just yet and would certainly like a claim from him so I'll

unvote

since he's now at L-1.

I'll respond to the other stuff that's been said on this page in my next post.

[Incognito]

Actually, Incognito hasn't invoked meta at all, and I know they've played at least one game together. I'd be curious to hear his take.

I haven't brought up my meta on fhq because 1) I feel it's fairly outdated, and 2) I don't completely remember his play from that game (Newbie 592

[holy shit. we're in the 800s now for Newbie Games?]

). I kinda tried to push that game out of my mind since it was heartbreaking that I was on the right path but just had the scum pairing wrong. x_x

I do want Incognito to explain his town read on Wolframn.

There were certain things I disliked about his play (I thought his Imaginary Fiend vote kinda sucked when I think his vote would have been better placed on fhq at the time, and I thought his post 41 where he agreed with fhq's thoughts was pretty bad), but I did feel like his line of questioning at least with fhq matched some of my thoughts and his aggressiveness was somewhat town-ish. I didn't get the feeling from wolf's posting that he was trying to sabotage people and paint them in a scummy light; I felt more like he was using aggressiveness to try and figure people out. I'm also assuming that he got somewhat busy around the time he flaked since he did so across the board (I think he was in like one or two other games), so I'm guessing his head wasn't completely in this game. Since he never voted fhq on page 2 despite pointing out something at least somewhat voteworthy, I initially thought they could be scum together but then you came in and sheeped on me, so I'm assuming that's not likely.

Were you reading wolf as slightly scummy upon replacing in?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Giskard, now that you're here, what

were

your thoughts on the The Many wagon?

[Giskard]

Giskard, now that you're here, what

were

your thoughts on the The Many wagon?

Yeah, sorry about disappearing, school got kind of intense for a little bit.

As for the Many wagon, no one really gave an argument for a good reason to kill the guy, and nothing he did made me any more suspicious of him then anyone else.

[Giskard]

fhqwhgads, can you give us some further discussion as to why you unvoted for The Many?

With the deadline coming closer I think it's in our best interest to get feedback from EVERYONE and make sure replacements are done before then. I think before any bandwagons are pushed any further we should wait till every player has posted at least once again.

Also, I'm going to

Unvote

for the reason above. My reasons for the vote still stands and if we approach deadline without any further resolutions, it's where my vote will stay.

To me, an approaching deadline and missing players doesn't seem like a reason to unvote for someone you were so sure is scum. At the time you posted this we were still 9 days away from having to invoke the 1/2 required votes lynch rule. So, I am not really clear as to why you did it.

[Giskard]

Apologies for the triple post but,

Mod, can we get a vote count?

[Imaginary Fiend]

Things have gotten lively!

I'm trying to pick through the most recent posts to see if I agree at all with the bandwagon on

Fhqwhgads

. I really didn't like the way he was pressing

Seregil

earlier when it was pretty obvious that we'd had a lot of flaking. (Posts 79 through 90.) I did get a sense that he was putting words in

Seregil

's mouth, or perhaps that he was taking undue umbrage.

My (unsolicited) read on the

The Many

bandwagon is that the guy was a jerk. He was shooting off abrasive one-line posts along the lines of "the next one to post is scum" was bound to draw irritated votes. The reasons given by the voters -- that he was an "active lurker" or that he needed "pressure" were sort of spurious and his case wasn't voteworthy.

As far as your question about metagaming,

Incognito

, I don't like it on principle. I don't have a lot of experience with it, so casting it as a scum action probably wasn't appropriate. Can you share your perspective on metagaming?

Also: If anyone wonders why I haven't voted, it's cause I'm trying to make it count. (And, to be honest, I got off to a rocky start, so I'm trying not to stick my foot in my mouth any more, if possible.) I find myself not preferring the "vote early, vote often" playstyle.

I'm most inclined to look for players who are staying under the radar. In my (admittedly limited) view, the scum don't benefit from grandstanding, getting in arguments, or making obvious plays, they benefit from putting in just enough remarks to remain unremarkable. Of course, in this game, with so many replacements, that'd be pretty damn tough to follow through on. Any insight from our more experienced players on this?

And what the heck is sheeping?

[Incognito]

As for the Many wagon, no one really gave an argument for a good reason to kill the guy, and nothing he did made me any more suspicious of him then anyone else.

Okay. So why did you mention the following when you thought he had four votes on him:

Can I make a request. The Many is currently at four votes. If anyone is thinking of adding the last vote can you please wait until we figure our what is going on with wolframnhart?

Why not speak out against the wagon instead? Also, out of curiosity, have you played forum Mafia elsewhere or is this your first game?

And wow, school during the summertime, or do you live outside the U.S.?!

---

@Imaginary Fiend:

In reference to your question on meta-gaming, I've found that it's oftentimes a really good tool to use when trying to determine a person's alignment since most players really do have certain quirks or tendencies that they tend to do when they're of a certain alignment. Obviously there are some players who can change over time and learn to try and "fix" their own meta, which can place some limitations on the validity of meta, but I think most players simply aren't able to. I've come across a lot of instances where I've seen players who played using seemingly anti-town playstyles as town that would have led to their mislynch had I not done the meta-research to determine if this is something this particular player does all the time.

With regard to your question on replacements, I think you should never forget the actions that a replaced person performed. You should look at the replacement's actions, try and develop an impression of him or her, and then try and figure out how the

sum total

of both the replacement's and the replaced person's actions add up to your general view of him or her.

Sheeping is following another person's opinion or vote. Ether has sheeped off of my vote because she likes

me

it.

[Incognito]

I feel obligated to temporarily write off McRookie for that goon question even though I don't really understand it. Thoooooooooooose newbflakes.

I thought similarly, btw. Though, McRookie hasn't completely flaked, has he?

[Giskard]

As for the Many wagon, no one really gave an argument for a good reason to kill the guy, and nothing he did made me any more suspicious of him then anyone else.

Okay. So why did you mention the following when you thought he had four votes on him:

Can I make a request. The Many is currently at four votes. If anyone is thinking of adding the last vote can you please wait until we figure our what is going on with wolframnhart?

Why not speak out against the wagon instead? Also, out of curiosity, have you played forum Mafia elsewhere or is this your first game?

And wow, school during the summertime, or do you live outside the U.S.?!

I didn't speak out against the wagon for a few reasons. First, I wanted here everyone's opinion on the matter before he was lynched. Second, he never really defended himself and I wanted to make sure he lived long enough to get the chance. And third, I didn't think he was guilty, but I didn't think he was innocent either.

This is my second game on mafiascum.net and this is the only forum I have ever played on. I have been playing in real life off and on for close to a decade. And I am in the US and trying to finish my masters degree as quickly as possible so I am taking a summer class.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Votecount #007

3 - fhqwhgads (Ether, moose200x, Giskard)
1 - Incognito (seregil)
1 - Ether (McRookie)

Not voting: Imaginary Fiend, fhqwhgads, facebook, Incognito (4)

DEADLINE SUNDAY 7/11 12:00 PM CST

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!