dank wrote:Maybe that is what I look like, but i'm not going to vote for a claimed doctor. I just don't understand why everyone abandons the chance that he IS our doctor. If the doctor is as valuable as you all say, where you under no circumstance want the real one to counter, what if you happen to lynch our doctor? Does not that bother you the slightest bit?
Like I said, I have no problem voting for FC prior to the claim. But lynching a power role is about the stupidest thing town can do, and I honestly have to believe FC's claim unless there's a counter. I can't stop you guys from doing it, but i'd much rather we lynch someone else today.
What makes you believe it
wasn't
a claim of convenience? If you have anything to suggest he
behaved
like a doctor, let me know - but the claim on its own means very little. If anything, it's one more reason to think he's newscum.
Also, don't get me wrong on the previous post. The decision to no longer follow your professed list of reasons to lynch FC strikes me as somewhat odd, but not necessarily a scumtell. I can understand the discomfort in voting for a claimed doc, even one who looks incredibly scummy. I'm simply saying if my suspicions (and yours, for that matter) of FC are correct, it's a textbook example of the effect that inexperienced scum hope to evoke.
Mixed messages from dank right now. He might be a partner ... or maybe just a protown with a dearth of spine. IGMEOY, and a cardflip of FC would be enlightening.
"Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I've seen enough. Sentiment for the lynch has not died down and though I agree with Dank, worst case scenario is we lynch our doc instead of letting him be nk'd tonight. At least that opens the door to confirm the masons. Also, if he flips scum
and
the masons live we may actually have our scum team. Day1 scum at L-1 shjould always try to out the doc, so its not that far-fetched to think odds have changed all that much.
kikuchiyo wrote:Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them. Given that choice I would much rather lynch Mokina than FC. Given that I think either move is only made by ignorant players or scum, I will opt to lynch Nadroj. Unless there's a counterclaim.
This is your most recent post, when you were opposed to having masons die in order to confirm them
and
opposed to lynching FC. You wanted a counterclaim, but it didn't happen. Now, after two pages of lurking, you're suddenly okay with both.
FoS: kikuchiyo
Kiku's driving the bus, perchance?
"Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
kikuchiyo wrote:Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them. Given that choice I would much rather lynch Mokina than FC. Given that I think either move is only made by ignorant players or scum, I will opt to lynch Nadroj. Unless there's a counterclaim.
This is your most recent post, when you were opposed to having masons die in order to confirm them
and
opposed to lynching FC. You wanted a counterclaim, but it didn't happen. Now, after two pages of lurking, you're suddenly okay with both.
FoS: kikuchiyo
Kiku's driving the bus, perchance?
First. What do you mean by "both"?
Second. You should know better. I opposed the lynch and asked for confirmation(counterclaim) that our claimed doc was actually scum. You, on the other hand seem determined to lynch him and are disbelieving of the claim. The only players who should be confident in lynching scumFC are the real doc and the scum team. I am the player whose been pushing the FC wagon since its inception. That's quite the epic day1 bus.
Third. You are calling for FC's lynch. Why are you now suspicious of those who are bending to your will? You know he's scum because he is your partner. You and Hero are the scummiest masons I could imagine. I have used logical reasoning for all of my day1 moves. If you are going to be suspicious, bring a little more to the table than "gut" feelings.
kikuchiyo wrote:First. What do you mean by "both"?
I mean exactly what it looks like. You now support the killing of masons to confirm their claims and the lynch of FC. Two pages ago, you were calling both bad ideas. I just think it's weird how fast you changed your opinion.
Second. You should know better. I opposed the lynch and asked for confirmation(counterclaim) that our claimed doc was actually scum. You, on the other hand seem determined to lynch him and are disbelieving of the claim. The only players who should be confident in lynching scumFC are the real doc and the scum team. I am the player whose been pushing the FC wagon since its inception. That's quite the epic day1 bus.
While it's polemic to lynch a claimed doc, I did it anyway. That's not a scumtell - it's because myself and Hero have already claimed. You will find that out how ridiculous this theory is when one of us (probably me) gets NK'd. Hell, you might be the one doing the shooting. For now, I am willing to take chances for the reasons SerialClergyman so eloquently pointed out.
kikuchiyo wrote:Third. You are calling for FC's lynch.
Why are you now suspicious of those who are bending to your will?
You know he's scum because he is your partner. You and Hero are the scummiest masons I could imagine. I have used logical reasoning for all of my day1 moves. If you are going to be suspicious, bring a little more to the table than "gut" feelings.
As town, you should
always
be suspicious of those who bend to your will. Just because you agree with me doesn't mean you're not scum - in fact, I am wary of those who are too willing to bend. When someone does it too much, it becomes obvious they're following town trends. And as a side note, it's
very
logical for antitowns to switch up their opinions on a wagon to follow general opinion after lurking for a couple pages. This is what I observe in you, and by extension, the reason for the FoS.
That said, I have had no indication that you're scum so far other than this, and I certainly have no intention of changing my vote. I could be wrong with this theory, and I acknowledge that.
"Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Mokina wrote:I mean exactly what it looks like. You now support the killing of masons to confirm their claims and the lynch of FC. Two pages ago, you were calling both bad ideas. I just think it's weird how fast you changed your opinion.
Sorry. Perhaps I should have employed [/sarcasm] tags. I think it is an equally bad idea to lynch either the claimed masons or the claimed doc, but as this is a team game I am willing to give this a shot. Also, if you think I have been lurking you should realize that I have been reading. There are certain aspects to this wagon that are difficult not to notice. i.e. There should be at most 3-4 anti-town roles in this game with an interest in nailing the doc with a mislynch. Odds are that they all would not be so brazen as to wagon him uncounterclaimed on day 1 which to me means that at least a few town are on the wagon. Not everyone is going to make their reasoning as to how they feel public knowledge, so as a team we need to at some point take the leap of faith. I find, and have found, FC to be the scummy to the degree of qualifying for lynch. I am not going to stand in sole opposition to the wagon because I have no evidence that suggests he is telling the truth.
Also, please note the contradiction of you claiming I changed my opinion fast, but that I also "lurked" for a couple of pages. Mafia is a dynamic environment and sometimes a player changes their mind because of what they read.
Hey, everybody. I had a quick skim of the thread last night before offering to replace in, but now I'm going to go back and reread the whole thing carefully. I'll post some thoughts shortly.
After a more thorough reading, here's what I found most noteworthy so far.
Page 1: Confirmations and random votes.
Page 2: There's a little dustup between Mokina and Neferenom about being third on a bandwagon and changing votes and so forth. The "third on a bandwagon" thing gets more attention than it probably deserves.
Page 3: Kikuchiyo points out a possible connection between Mokina and Far_Cry, which Far_Cry explicitly denies. Dank replaces in with a pretty good analysis post that mostly echoes my thoughts so far.
Page 4: Hero764 joins in on the "explaining what Far_Cry meant" game, which Kikuchiyo and qwints call him on. Dank questions Hero764's lack of scumhunting. Wiirdo posts in the game for the first time since confirming, and it's a contentless two-liner. Dank calls out Far_Cry for trying to unplay the newbie card he played on Page 1.
Page 5: Hero764 votes for Kikuchiyo, who I think is one of the towniest-looking players so far (along with Qwints and Dank).Nadroj15 shows up, calls Kikuchiyo wishy-washy for changing her vote, votes Hero764 for being over-defensive and "having no opinion." Far_Cry votes Tenchi, for his "stay out of the way attitude"(???).
Page 6: Okay, Kikuchiyo loses some points for 126, especially the talk about a day 1 mason claim. This threatens to turn into a big theory argument between her and Qwints. Nadroj15 and Lowell weigh in on the pro-mason-claim side. Meanwhile, Hero764 continues to pretend not to understand why people think it's suspicious for him to explain what Far_Cry meant, and we get a rare appearance by Tenchi at the end of the page.
Page 7: Wiirdo's second appearance, again virtually without content. Mokina defends Hero764. Lowell puts Hero764 at L-2 without much of a justification, so some votes naturally swing his way.
Page 8: Lowell tries to defend his vote on Hero764, can't, says "maybe that was someone else" (!) and unvotes. Wiirdo pops in, votes for Lowell, pops out. Far_Cry points out Wiirdo's lurkiness. Dank points out that Wiirdo gave exactly the same reason for voting Lowell as Far_Cry originally did. Meanwhile, Mokina says that Kikuchiyo's argument is based on honest belief, and yet is still voting her because it's an anti-town kind of argument(?). Kikuchiyo points this out, Nadroj15 "me too"s, iamausername votes Mokina, Nadroj15 "me too"s.
Page 9: Kikuchiyo votes Mokina, much discussion ensues about Mokina's agreement/disagreement with Kikuchiyo's case against Hero764. Hero764 chimes in with an explanation of how to interpret Mokina's posts so they don't look scummy.
Page 10: Hero764 claims Mason with Mokina. Mokina confirms, which actually does explain her going after Kikuchiyo and his defense of her, assuming that they're confirmed town masons. Doesn't explain why he defended Far_Cry in a similar manner, though, as Dank points out. This prompts Hero764 to start defending his point (and, by extension Far_Cry) all over again.
Page 11: Hero764 and Dank continue to rehash the past eight pages. Kikuchiyo decides to try lurker hunting. Dank and Mokina go around for a while on whether Mokina and Hero764 were "forced" to claim masons or not. Nadroj15 "me too"s some more, starts drawing votes and Fs of S for it.
Page 12: The lurker hunt picks up steam. Wiirdo gets called out for active lurking, Far_Cry picks up some votes. Nadroj15 bandwagons some more, picks up more votes.
Page 13: Tenchi comes back, makes a big post that's sadly not much use because he's only read up to page 5 and hasn't seen the mason claims yet. Lowell shows up, makes a recap post, decides Qwints is scummiest player and votes him. Nadroj15 does a player list, which as a rule I'm generally not too fond of for the reason that Hero764 points out -- it helps the scum decide who's lynchable and who they'll have to nightkill. Tenchi makes another mostly useless recap post covering pages 6 and 7, which starts another bit of conversation about day 1 mason claims in general. Interestingly, everybody seems to be making the tacit assumption that mason pairs are confirmed town to each other. Nobody's even mentioned the possibility of a scum-mason pair.
Page 14: Tenchi/Mokina vs. Kikuchiyo on whether K "forced" Mokina/Hero764 into a too-early mason claim, and general theory stuff about masons. Out of nowhere, Far_Cry suggests that Kikuchiyo and Nadroj15 are masons(?) and gets into even more weird role speculation, including the possibility of an actor, which I had to look up in the wiki to find out what it was.
Page 15: More on Far_Cry's odd "defense" of Kikuchiyo. Finally getting some content out of Far_Cry and Wiirdo. SerialClergyman replaces Neferenom, who I totally forgot was even in this game.
Page 16: Seems like some wheel-spinning going on. Iamausername makes a case against Qwints, Qwints reiterates his case against Far_Cry. SerialClergyman's first big post makes a similar case against Far_Cry, voices suspicion of the mason claim, and calls out Wiirdo for active lurking. Dank puts Far_Cry at L-2.
Page 17: Hero764 defends Far_Cry based on meta. Qwints finally asks the question that's been in the back of my head since Page 10: are the masons confirmed town to each other? Nikanor replaces Wiirdo. SerialClergyman continues to be skeptical about the mason claim. Both Hero764 and Iamausername point out the problems with the fake-claim scenario SC is suggesting.
Page 18: Far_Cry returns, doesn't defend himself very well. Lowell puts him at L-1. He makes a weird post where he soft claims Jester, third-party, and town power role. Two posts later he claims doctor. Almost nobody believes him, but several people unvote on principle. Qwints explicitly advises against a counter-claim.
Page 19: More discussion of the doc claim. Nadroj15 picks up some more votes. Mokina doesn't buy the claim and even votes Far_Cry. Tenchi shows up.
Page 20: ... and votes Far_Cry, putting him into a tie with Nadroj15, which is then broken when SerialClergyman switches his vote from FC to N15. And then goes on to argue that the doc claim might be fake, and switches his vote back to Far_Cry. He and Dank go around about that for a bit.
Page 21: Kikuchiyo takes Far_Cry back up to L-1. Mokina gives her the Fos and they go back and forth. (My replacing in takes Nadroj15's vote off so he's back down to L-2 now.)
Okay, that's what jumped out at me on reading the thread. Probably not much help to anybody else, but what can you do? I'll post some thoughts and questions later today, but it might not be until this evening.
The last two pages have me considering a dank, fc, kiku scum team. Dank's fighting a bit too hard to save FC, especially considering this gem of a goodbye post:
Far_Cry wrote:Back to L-1, for what, the third time in 2 pages? This is crazy.
Hero764 wrote:What are the advantages of lynching a claimed doc as opposed to someone else, who in most's eyes is about as scummy?
This is wat I'm not understanding. Suppose I actually do flip doctor (which I will, when I die.) How will u feel, and wat would u do?
This does not feel like a PR trying to save himself to me - especially given how vociferously FC has defended himself in the past.
Here are some of the posts that suggest dank-FC-kiku to me.
dank wrote:^^Agreed. Doc is such a ridiculously common role that I can't see scum trying to fake claim it when they're backed into a corner. Even if they do, chances are there's a counter.
dank wrote:
You don't think a doc for 1/3 (i'd guess 3 scum in this game) of the scum team is a good tradeoff? Without a real doc claiming, I can't see any reason to lynch FC today, so we'd essentially be letting scum roam free, where we could lynch him now.
As far as not claiming till later, if there's a D1 doc claim by scum, and the real doctor claims a few days later... who will town most likely believe? The real doctor will certainly get lynched, it just wouldn't make sense to lynch FC then.
I dont' understand your reasoning; it seems fairly anti-town.
dank wrote:
I was saying that if there's a counterclaim and it catches us scum on D1, I think we should go through with it, instead of letting that caught scum that could be lynched D1 continue to roam free, with the assumption that he's the real doc when we can prove he isn't. Like letting an easy lynch get away in favor of a tougher lynch later on, where the counterclaim could not be as easily believed.
dank wrote:No, you're pushing for an FC lynch and not once accepting the chance that maybe, oh maybe, he's the real doctor. I think that's much scummier than anything i've been doing.
Dank is 1)wrong and 2)pushing
really
hard for a counter-claim in these two posts. Dank's policy of not lynching without a counter-claim could possibly be consistent with him being town, but pushing this hard for the real doc to out himself is scummy.
Then Kiku comes in after Mokina and I have explained why counterclaiming is a bad idea with this post:
kikuchiyo wrote:Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them. Given that choice I would much rather lynch Mokina than FC. Given that I think either move is only made by ignorant players or scum, I will opt to lynch Nadroj. Unless there's a counterclaim.
Note the reference to a counter-claim. Such a sentiment is so obvious that it amounts to fishing. Furthermore, Kiku fails to distinguish between a D1 lynch and a lynch at a later date.
KIKU THEN VOTES FC IN HER VERY NEXT POST!!!
kikuchiyo wrote:
Vote: Far_Cry
I've seen enough. Sentiment for the lynch has not died down and though I agree with Dank, worst case scenario is we lynch our doc instead of letting him be nk'd tonight. At least that opens the door to confirm the masons.
Also, if he flips scum
and
the masons live we may actually have our scum team.
Day1 scum at L-1 shjould always try to out the doc, so its not that far-fetched to think odds have changed all that much.
Dank: Shut up and hammer.
Two things to see here:
First, the hypothetical creating Mokina and Hero as town is entirely in kiku's power to bring about if she is scum with FC. Second, note the instruction to dank. Scum coaching scum?
Kiku does try to explain her switch (after Mokina calls her out on it) in 503 and 505, but I find neither persuasive.
This scenario, combined with FC's unwillingness to protest his own lynch, make me willing to take the rare step of lynching a claimed doc on day 1.
FC/kiku is a bit of a stretch, but thanks for your post. You could just as easily be his scumbuddy jumping the inevitable wagon at the last minute. If he is scum, we can afford a mislynch to prove your theory wrong if need be, so again: thanks.
kiku's very next post was two pages later after several other players chimed in. Asking for a counterclaim is not necessarily rolefishing. Doc is a common day 1 scum claim, but as it was pointed out, bad players sometimes pull good roles. What's done is done. I love the fact that you give me no credit for a day of hard pressed scumhunting.
First of all, I should say that I completely understand why people are voting for me/Nadroj15. The bandwagonning, "me too" posts, and lack of any real scumhunting contribution look really bad, I know. I'm hoping that if people are willing to give me the benefit of the doubt and not necessarily hold my predecessor's bad play against me too much.
I don't want to replace in and immediately hammer somebody, especially when he's not around to defend himself. Not because it would look bad for me if he flipped town (although admittedly it would), but because: a.) There's still some stuff I think we should talk about on Day One; and b.) I do think there's a slim chance that Far_Cry is just a nut and not necessarily scum, and if so then I'd rather petition for him to be replaced (since he's apparently away at camp for a week) and see how his replacement acts. After all, that's basically what I'm asking the rest of you to do with regards to Nadroj15 and me.
So there's that. And I have some questions. If they've been answered already and I missed it, a pointer to the relevant post(s) would be appreciated.
@Hero764: Just to get the answer in black and white: Does your role PM say that you know Mokina is pro-town?
@Mokina: Same question. Does your role PM say that you know Hero764 is pro-town?
@Lowell: Way back in your one long post, you ranked Qwints, Nadroj15, and Iamausername as the three scummiest players. Is that still your opinion?
@Nikanor: Do you have any thoughts? Questions? Anything at all you'd like to share with the rest of the class?
Okay, good. That's what I thought, but it's best to get these things clear rather than make assumptions and then feel stupid when they turn out not to be true.
Ok, well the game has stalled massively, and that's always going to happen when replacements come in. I appreciate you guys need to catch up but if you could really try to get around the latest developments and let us know what you're thinking about Far Cry that'd really help.
Gwyn - I don't understand where you're going with your questions. The mason question was asked and answered previously, the Lowell question is kinda old news (what's it going to tell you if his opinion has changed or not?) and telling Nikanor to post something isn't exactly content. Could you stop stalling and mention your thoughts about recent events? If you didn't like the people bandwagoning you, who did you think did it in a scummy way? Would you not have voted Nadroj? Which side are you picking/leaning on with regards to lynching Far Cry or not?
For those not in favour of lynching FC, in your cotton-wool wrapped shame, could you start putting up some alternatives? Both Wiirdo and nadroj have been replaced, so instead of just unvoting and barely posting, would you like to maybe re-read, try your hand at scumhunting and actually put yourselves out there a little? The biggest advantage to being a townie is that you're expendable, so you can afford to put your opinions out there and push people a bit. All this sitting around without a vote on not saying anything isn't useful.
I don't like replacements. They always give people a weird kind of clean slate.
Gwynplaine ... please consider all options here. I know you just replaced in, but a case and a vote would not go amiss. Agree with SC about the stalling - avoiding hammer votes on principle makes you that much more useless if you're a townie. That said, if there's some reason you don't believe there's a worthy case against FC at this point and wish to hold back, feel free to elaborate. You mentioned the possibility of him being "just a nut" in your previous post?
"Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Seconded on the dislike of replacements, especially when they are seemingly as useless as the ones they replaced. Is FC lynched? I thought qwints was the hammer?
Nope, I gave Gwynplaine the benefit of the unvote when he replaced nadroj15. Far_Cry is at L-1. New votecount up shortly.
kikuchiyo wrote:Seconded on the dislike of replacements, especially when they are seemingly as useless as the ones they replaced. Is FC lynched? I thought qwints was the hammer?
This should be interesting. I would like the replacements take. Also, an FC replacement may help as well. Five days to deadline. I suggest we let the replacements have the thread so as not jump up the pge numbers too quick.
Hero, you and I will need to vote Far_cry before deadline if necessary. If you still feel strongly for the Gwynplaine lynch, try to be short and to the point. I want our replacements caught up.
I'll hammer FC if necessary. Although I really do not think we should be lynching an uncounterclaimed doc based on a poor playstyle in general.
We should lynch Gwynplaine because his former self active lurked and was always going with the flow, even making it blatantly at one point(at which I voted him). He doesn't have many posts, so it shouldn't take long to read nadroj in iso and get an idea for yourself.
