The Sopranos: A Deadly Game (GAME OVER!)

[Kise]

Alright... I want you to look at things in this light for a moment -->

Hypothetically speaking, you're a member of the mafia. The game begins. A bandwagon forms and you decide to be #5 on the wagon. Your reason for being on the wagon is to get the player you're voting for to freak out, meaning you want to entrap this player [Empking] into looking scummy so that a bigger case can be used against him and everyone will vote him. You've accomplished your goal of getting an easy mislynch, Day 1.

Additionally, you call someone [me, myself & I] a busy-poster. However, you yourself have asked other players questions but never followed up or led to anything with it. You tend to drop things when they either do not work out in favor of your faction, or no one else is following it.

What I'm getting at is that you are appearing to be an opportunity seeker. If one angle doesn't work like you hoped it would, you drop it and decide to find what else you can instigate. And by opportunity, I mean to say opportunistic-scum.

This is all hypothetically speaking. Understand how things look regardless of your alignment, because there's no credibility with anything you've done or tried to do in this game. It's nice that you're finally sticking with something by keeping the vote on me, but, again, no credibility. Why drop your earlier suspicions altogether? There is more than 1 way to get something out of Emp, and there certainly could have been a stronger reason to vote for EK when you did.

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Also, has anyone [else] ever been in a game where a quick bandwagon actually did produce a valuable result, and not a mislynch? Does anyone think the bandwagon that formed on Emp was pro-town, or even had potential to get something relevant out of Emp?

[al_kohaulec]

*snip*

This is all hypothetically speaking. Understand how things look regardless of your alignment, because there's no credibility with anything you've done or tried to do in this game. It's nice that you're finally sticking with something by keeping the vote on me, but, again, no credibility. Why drop your earlier suspicions altogether? There is more than 1 way to get something out of Emp,

By earlier suspicions, are you talking about hohum's suspicions on EK? AFAIK, hohum had no suspicions of EK, he was just pushing to get a reaction.

and there certainly could have been a stronger reason to vote for EK when you did.

This statement jumps out at me. What could there have been at the time that hohum voted EK that would have been a stronger reason?

Also, has anyone [else] ever been in a game where a quick bandwagon actually did produce a valuable result, and not a mislynch? Does anyone think the bandwagon that formed on Emp was pro-town, or even had potential to get something relevant out of Emp?

I want to say I have been part of such a game, but nothing specific is coming to mind right now, at least not for D1 bandwagons. But I would say "Yes," it did have potential of getting something relevant out of it.

[ZONEACE]

I don't think name claiming is going to break this game. Arguably, my character could be viewed as a threat to the DiMeo crime family (as Tony Soprano intended for him to be whacked). So, I'm against it.

[Kise]

I don't need your consent to make observations. I don't answer to you.

For all we know, I could be your boss. That'd be ironic as hell.

I'm not implying that. You're putting words into my mouth now.

Hmm.. I don't see the similarity between my vote for zwet and your vote for Emp. I think zwet is scum. You simply wanted to pressure Emp.

You're invalidating the only tool the town has to pressure people by preemptively saving people.

Trust me, I would not have stepped in if

Emp said something scummy/suspect to warrant being wagoned

. That way, trying to pressure him would have been fine & dandy because it was his own fuck-up and he's accountable for getting himself voted upon. The thing is, 5-quick votes on someone gives me an uneasy feeling, and I wasn't going to be quiet about it. Random voting stage or not, it's fishy.

Pack mentality in this game is a GOOD thing, not a BAD thing.

And by pack mentality, you mean bandwagon. No, that is not a good thing. Everyone should have a valid reason for their votes. I have never seen a moderate-sized bandwagon during RVS such as the one on Emp.

why do one of those three

have

to be scum?

I excluded the first 2 people that voted for Emp because the greater suspicion lies on those other 3 that nonchalantly followed along with it; Ash, inHim & hohum. Some argue that bandwagons don't start until the 3rd vote, so I went with that. I forget if inHim or Ash mentioned why they did it, but it's laughable that hohum wants to justify his Emp-vote by saying he expected a worthwhile reaction. Emp, or

anyone

for that matter, had nothing significant to comment on back then. The only elephant in the room was the bandwagon itself. You should also note how hohum recently says he backed off after Emp "barely reacted." If he truly wanted to get anything vital out of Emp, he should have stuck with it. It's coincidental that he chose to back off of Emp after the others unvoted from the wagon.

By earlier suspicions, are you talking about hohum's suspicions on EK? AFAIK, hohum had no suspicions of EK, he was just pushing to get a reaction.

Whatever he wants to call it, he should have kept on EK & Emp. He quit after getting nothing out of it, rather than push for it by other means. And I doubt these

other means

would present themselves until

after

Emp has had a chance to say anything worth inquiring.

What could there have been at the time that hohum voted EK that would have been a stronger reason?

I'm not saying there was a stronger reason. I'm saying hohum's reason for voting EK was mild at best.

But I would say "Yes," it did have potential of getting something relevant out of it.

Meh... alright then. Maybe I did screw it up. Fact doesn't change that there are other ways to peg Emp as scum.

[hohum]

It wasn't susipicion of anything empking had done at that point (as you pointed out he hadn't even posted yet). It was as you put it a baseless vote, still a vote designed to provoke a reaction (as a properly constructed wagon should)

Not having a case is better than having a bad case and your case on zwet certainly qualifies as a bad case.

Hypothesizing at this point won't further the discussion and actually reeks of an attempt to deflect. The only way to properly judge a wagon is in hindsight and you're doing the town a grave disservice by picking the wagon apart.

I'd be happy to sit here and have game theory discussions with you but we're just going to start going around in circles here pretty soon. The fact is: you're just plain wrong.

I'm still lost on this post. Could you elaborate on your vote and your "point"?

Simple. I didn't like how fast she constructed her case. Fast and early cases are usually either made of fail or driven by scum. My letting her know I disapproved was designed to provoke a reaction so that I could figure out which and make a note of it accordingly. When she didn't respond to me the first time I figured a vote might get her attention. When she didn't respond to me after the vote, I put a note about it in my journal so that I could remember to try and extract reasoning later on in the game with the benefit of hindsight.

This post does surprise me. Kise has been posting content, and there are many other players who are barely even posting. From first view, hohum is the player I'd say isn't posting content. But reading his posts more focused, I can see some content in them, it's just hard to pull out what he's saying with how he says it. His push against Kise for "busy" posts is a little suspicious.

The post was partly designed to provoke a reaction from Kise and it did with great success. To that extent I'm happy with the result.

[al_kohaulec]

I wouldn't say you "screwed it up". You posted your opinion of the bandwagon, and it had its merit. And I agree, there are other, better, ways to peg Emp as scum. I do say there was potential, but the potential wasn't that great. I still believe it was a worthwhile attempt, but if the wagon grew bigger, then the wagon itself would have grown much more suspicious.


And even the wagon itself provides some relevant information. I personally can't read much from it, though, cause everybody pretty much copy/pasted what the person above him said, and that's where I get the feeling most people were joking when they voted EK. If it weren't for your attacking hohum and others on the bandwagon, I wouldn't have realized that you had a very valid point that there likely could have been scum in that last three. I wouldn't put it at 100% that one of those three is scum, but there's a good enough chance of it to look at it.

My thoughts on that bandwagon are:
It was initiated and pushed based on RVS and a joke. There is no way the bandwagon would have been pushed to a lynch, so it was mostly harmless. It did, however, grow very quickly, so the temptation to hop on the wagon and push it would appeal to scum. So even despite the fact that it's very unlikely EK would have been lynched, the probability that at least one scum would have fallen into temptation of pushing that wagon is good. Since nobody (besides hohum after the fact) posted anything original for their vote, though, if there was a scum amongst those three, I wouldn't know where to start, so there's nothing I can pull from it, so I'm laying that aside and looking for other evidence to scumhunt.

[hohum]

For all we know, I could be your boss. That'd be ironic as hell.

Is that a soft claim tucked away in the form of a joke? I'll go ahead and add that to my list of reasons to push for your lynch.

[hohum]

There is no way the bandwagon would have been pushed to a lynch,

QFT

[Kise]

The post was partly designed to provoke a reaction from Kise and it did with great success. To that extent I'm happy with the result.

Lol.. trying to entrap others, I see.

Is that a soft claim tucked away in the form of a joke?

Didn't you get a pro-town PM like most of us? All we know is which other characters we're linked to, but we're not given the players actual account names. It's impossible for me to softclaim when I don't know who I'm linked to.

I'll go ahead and add that to my list of reasons to push for your lynch.

AAAHHH, SCCHHHH, PUSH IT..... PUSH IT, REAAAL GOOOD

[inHimshallibe]

unvote

[rajrhcpfreak]

alko, please dont abbreviate Empking as EK.

EK, ek, e_k, E_K, elvis = elvis_knits
Emp, emp, E-king = Empking

[Locke Lamora]

Kise: if you're so interested in the Emp bandwagon, why are you dismissing Poro's vote so easily? 'Some argue that bandwagons don't start until the 3rd vote' just sounds like you've grabbed at the earliest justification you could find.

[Kise]

Vote: Empking

You're not the king. You're not even the Boss.

Vote: Empking

You're not the king. You're not even the Boss.

to tired to make a random vote of my own

Poro falls more in line of an obvious joke-vote than the 3 who followed him. I'm not gonna bust his balls over it. Same way I didn't bust inHim's balls as much as Ash's. With Ash being the more current voter, I felt that he was more likely to be scum out of the 4 voting Emp (This was before hohum voted, BTW).

Additionally, the "some argue that bandwagons...." line is being used just in case anyone here is also in a certain (ongoing) large-normal game with me. In that game, I say that I personally think a bandwagon begins as soon as a 2nd person votes for someone, but a lot of people there shot me down and said bandwagons are moreso the 3rd vote. So, hence me feeling contrived to say "some argue."

[Locke Lamora]

And what about in the context of Poro posting very little else in the whole game apart from saying he doesn't like millar?

[millar13]

I post stuff because I thought you were scummy, but i wasnt't going to be rash and vote for you straight away. When you know that your not the only person with similar views, that isn't scummy. That just means you say the same thing. The fact i was already suspicious of can't mean I jumped on the wagon if I was already effectively part of it. Funny how that is all you have really got on me.....a wagon wait claim. Kind of poor really

[hohum]

The post was partly designed to provoke a reaction from Kise and it did with great success. To that extent I'm happy with the result.

Lol.. trying to entrap others, I see.

How do you suggest we go after scum then?

Also, has anyone [else] ever been in a game where a quick bandwagon actually did produce a valuable result, and not a mislynch?

I was in just such a game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8657

Hint: My alt is dcorbe

The scum was caught and lynched thanks to the quick construction of an early wagon which resulted due to a response to a random vote. The scum team in this game tried to save the lynchee by protesting the wagon.

[Empking]

Locke: Second scummiest thing Al did?

[elvis_knits]

However, I don't like the OMGUS reaction from Kise.

Someone makes a trivial case on me, and I automatically start digging in their ass. I went into Mastin-mode and was about to make a wall-of-text, but I kept making jokes out of hohum's posts and decided not to use it. I got it saved in notepad, and I'll probably pull that

bad boy

out if I feel warranted. Anywho!

So you admit it was OMGUS.

You're admitting you are attacking hohum precisely because you don't like his attack on you. You are not merely defending against his points or showing why he is wrong. You are making a counter attack. That is OMGUS.

Hohum says kise isn't doing anything, and kise's reaction is: neither are you.

I didn't use the word "neither," because I do not fall in the category that hohum wants to place me in. I flipped the script in a way to label him a hypocrite. He called my posts mere busy/activity) posts, but all he's been doing is asking people questions and not following up (nothing but gristle). So, in other words, he's the one who is making busy posts and

not going anywhere

with these questions.

I disagree. I think he's pressuring people he thinks might be scum in order to get a better read. But whatever, you might think that about hohum. But I sort of doubt it because you weren't complaining about hohum until he attacked you. Which makes the attack seem dishonest and OMGUS.

1) kise didn't defend himself by saying he is scum hunting.

Do you believe I was scumhunting?

Maybe sometimes. But you did post a lot of filler, which is akin to active lurking.

Do YOU believe you were scum hunting?

Trying to have it both ways on Al.

His mother took it both ways. I had the rear, Jr. took the mouth.

Lack of serious response means I'm right.

Also, looking through his posts, his early presence on the empking wagon and then lecturing posts about how wagoning is bad. Seems insincere since he was on empking too.

July Fools, anyone?
*smh*

See above.

[mneme]

Quick bandwagons are a tool of the town. Quick lynches less so.

I've been away since Wednesday. Fortunately, the pace of the game is such that nobody (seemingly) noticed.

[Porochaz]

Im busy with another game atm. This is next on my list. However having read the past few pages, my vote on millar seems like a good vote.

[Porochaz]

Looks like Im not voting millar

unvote vote millar13

[al_kohaulec]

alko, please dont abbreviate Empking as EK.

EK, ek, e_k, E_K, elvis = elvis_knits
Emp, emp, E-king = Empking

Thank you, raj.

I think I need to do some rereading.. I know I misread that abbreviation earlier...

I thought millar and miller were going to be the only confusing names.

[Kise]

And what about in the context of Poro posting very little else in the whole game apart from saying he doesn't like millar?

This is straying from the main source/reason . I haven't gotten on Poro's case for his posting very little, but at the same time, I haven't gotten on inHim or Ash's cases for doing relatively the same thing. I know Ash to pop in here and there. Not so much familiar with inHim & Poro doing it, but I'm in a few other games with Poro and he usually keeps his promise if he says he'll come back to comment, or w/e, as said in Post 244.

@elvis - It's not OMGUS at all. I already went over how uneasy I felt about those who wagoned Emp -- hohum being one of them. So, in a sense, I've always had my eye on him. How can you say I'm not bothering to prove hohum wrong when you yourself said you don't agree with him about me not posting content? (or was that someone else?) And yes, I do think I have been scumhunting. I've asked questions for clarification/understanding, pointed out millar's meta behavior being different than I know of him, and I almost got something worthwhile out of Ash when he was so nervous about why I kept my vote on him instead of switching to hohum. But, he went missing.

I want to touch on this for a moment:

zwet usually full claims. This is an improvement.

Not sure if you were serious, but this would be another reason why I think he's hiding something. Very unnecessary for him to softclaim. It was alright that he wanted to voice a defense for Al, but the reason he gave was not appropriate.

elvis, what did you mean when you said I wanted it both ways with Al?

[Locke Lamora]

Locke: Second scummiest thing Al did?

I assume you mean in relation to my comment about the goon/family confusion making Al look scummy?

inHim still hasn't answered any questions about that strange proxy comment and having reread him, his last few comments have been filler and a bandwagon vote on Al.

Unvote; Vote: inHim

[AshMC1984]

I'll be V/LA for 2 days. Posting this in all my games.