Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (2): Zachrulez, GIEFF
jammer (2): Kairyuu, SensFan
Battle Mage (2): Mastin, VP Baltar
GIEFF (2): jammer, camn
Cephrir (1): Debonair Danny DiPietro
alexhans (1): Battle Mage


Not Voting: Cephrir, broomhead, SpyreX, alexhans, Benmage

8 to lynch

[VP Baltar]

I would like to hear some of your opinions regarding it.

[camn]

He kept saying "bro".
He, I think, is/was being intentionally argumentative regarding NICKNAMES, of all things.

Understand, though.. I am not sure he is actually SCUMMY.. just scummiER than alex. Right now I am inclined to think town vs. town on them.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Cephrir, DDD, and jammer--are you voting for the person you think has been the scummiest thus far in the game?

Cephrir opens the game with a wishy-washy post and then goes effectively MIA. I'm certainly comfortable with me vote right now.

I'd also be comfortable voting Mastin for pushing mediocre theories early and claiming they cleared him and then going MIA as well.

Anyways, I think I side with Sens/BM on this latest brouhaha. I see no benefit to scum to ask for a claim at that point. Since I'm a firm believer in scum generally playing conservatively even forgetful scum aren't going to ask for a claim in that situation. So I'm inclined to believe his crappy trap explanation.

[jammer]

I think Sens is thinking too much in black and white, but he's not completely wrong. Also, BM is a suspect, but his play is more important than the meta here. I find you scummier than him based on your RVS extension post.

RVS=Random vote stage, amirite?
So before my post, where did ever the RVS stop.
camn vote VP
Kairyuu vote alexhans(RV)
DDD vote Kairyuu(RV)
mastin kills RVS, he says?
jammer votes sensfan(RV)
Kairyuu vote jammer(not random)

..., and jammer hasn't assuaged my suspicions. I have no reads on whoever is left.

At this stage, you are suspecting me for extending a RVS that supposedly ended but didn't? Must I take that vote serious?

You suggest we ignore the kill?

Yes, or come with something good. You say not to disregard the kill, yet I've seen nothing usefull on that topic coming from you.

This contradicts itself jammer, no? You answer should be. “No, but nothing useful has come from it yet” or something along those lines. To note, I don’t think the kill should be ignored.

No, it doesn't contradict. If you misunderstood. I say we ignore the kill, if he says the kill is usefull. Then he should show how it is usefull.

Cephrir, DDD, and jammer--are you voting for the person you think has been the scummiest thus far in the game?

Cephrir didn't vote at all, btw. Not really voting for the person I find most scummiest, I more or less forget where I placed the vote.

I am lurkerwagoning, better vote then GIEFF, atm.

Unvote: GIEFF
Vote: Cephrir

[Battle Mage]

b]Any motive given to a scumkill is WIFOM.[/b] This also applies to Mastin, to a GREATER extent than to alex, which makes it a very poor reason to unvote the former to vote the latter.

It doesnt apply more to Mastin than to Alex. Mastin is the kind of player that will happily shake things up at the start of the game, just for the sake of saying "OMGZ, I KILLED THE RVS". Alex on the other hand, does not have the same meta excuse in my book. The fact he agrees, but hides behind Mastin's coat-tails, seems scummier, dont ya think?

[*]

Alex is desperate to push the 4 scum theory, yet town should be cautious.

This is incorrect – it is actually MORE cautious to leave the door open to the possibility of 4 scum.

Erm, i didnt even say this. GG reading comprehension. xD

[*]

Alex agrees with Baltar that newer players would have less say in a scum kill - you think this is a convenient because alex is saying that HE wouldn't direct a scum kill.

I don’t see this.

Thats a terrible shame, because i do.

[*]

Alex tries to appear pro-town, but isn't really saying anything.

I disagree - this is protown, if alex really believes it is pro-town to speculate on the nightkill. I don't think it is protown, but I see no reason to be so sure that alex-town would feel the same way.[/quote]

I think you're taking my point out of context. If i recall, that point was made about a specific post, rather than Alex's general mentality.

[*]

Alex says that players who are first to post and post a lot are pro-town - BM disagrees.

Viewing Mastin as pro-town is not necessarily scummy.

Haha, what?? This is going a little downhill now bro. Given everything that has occurred, what is not scummy about asserting Mastin is protown under so little evidence?

[*]

Alex believes Mastin destroyed the RVS - BM disagrees (and presents a falsely binary choice).

false binary choice?

Viewing Mastin as pro-town is not necessarily scummy.

Ok, i'll stop you there, because im getting bored now. The thing is, if you dont think Alex's panicked defence of Mastin was scummy, then i wouldnt expect you to agree with the case on him, because that is pretty much the cornerstone of it. If that's what you wanted to say, you should've just said that, and then gone on to explain why you feel that Alex was justified in concluding Mastin was protown, at such an early stage in the game.

Also, skimming down your post-what do you feel required response in post 144? As far as i am concerned, suggesting an anti-pairing is hardly anything to get edgy about.

BM

[Battle Mage]

He kept saying "bro".
He, I think, is/was being intentionally argumentative regarding NICKNAMES, of all things.

Understand, though.. I am not sure he is actually SCUMMY.. just scummiER than alex. Right now I am inclined to think town vs. town on them.

lmao. Is saying "bro" a well known scumtell these days?

BM

[jammer]

Alexhans post 94

#69 GIEFF? Why Mastin?

BM... YOUR #71 is much more scummy than anything you might pretend Mastin is... Hoping on a waggon just like that? Mastin is an active and great player IMO and that's just his style. He was amongst the first people to post and he completely destroyed RVS (First time I've seen this) making this game really interesting from the get go. I think that your move is odd and opportunistic.

OK... WTF? BENMAGE??? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUMPING ON MASTIN WAGGON... IT'S REALLY SCUMMY YES! IM FURIOUS (HENCE THE CAPS). I LIKE MASTIN. HE HELPS TOWN. HE MAY BE SCUM BUT THERE ARE NO LEADS THAT INDICATE THAT RIGHT NOW.

- Mastin's waggon is WEIRD and lacks of sufficient reason.
- Benmage gets a FOS. FoS Benmage

Alexhans post 98

I think Mastin may make the mistake of being too sure of his allignment, meaning that he expects everyone to acknowledge his townieness in an unprovable way.

This is mainly the case if I understand it right? There seemed to be more arguing about it then actual points.

[SensFan]

Sensfan has just 1 vote, in his very first post in the thread, which he refuses to explain. This is particularly odd for a player who calls himself "very aggressive", and who is active in other games.

That's a massive misrep. I describe myself as extremely aggressive. Not as vote-happy.

But since you seem to care so much, here's a second one:

Vote: GIEFF

[SensFan]

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

[jammer]

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

Could you explain the reasoning behind it?

And with a scum you mean only one, or atleast one.

[SensFan]

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

Could you explain the reasoning behind it?

I pity the Town if none of you are Scum. That, and I don't think its possible for all 3 of you to be that scummy, but still Town.

And with a scum you mean only one, or atleast one.

How could I possibly know if there is exactly one? This is the type of stuff that put you on the list.

[Battle Mage]

Out of sheer interest, rather than any game relevance, have you got a link to this process taking place? Like in a quicktopic or whatever?

It's mafia 91. You COULD'VE searched for it... but here are the links...
Mafia 91
Sicilian
Japanese

been there, done that.

Mastin's behaviour was vaguely scummy, but given how much he posts, and his general meta, not really lynch-worthy. Alex's reaction to him was far scummier, and doesnt make sense with them as scumbuddies. Taking the assumption Alex is scum (which is the assumption i am making if i want him lynched), Mastin is almost certainly town. Of course, if Alex turns out to be town, this condition is no longer met, and Mastin can be looked at again.

Ok... I sized this for emphasis... THIS is one hell of a scummy statement. COnnecting the lynches of 2 players so if one them flips town the other must be looked at... Hell of a way to get 2 town players lynched with crap logic (no, I don't know if mastin is town or not but it's my current feeling).

But that isn't what i said, is it? I said, if we lynched you, and you were town, Mastin would still be a suspect. It wouldnt be a scumtell for him, and he wouldnt be an insta-lynch, but he wouldnt be confirmed town, either.

haha, you make it sound so scary. I'm capable of thinking 2 moves ahead, if thats what you're actually asking. Wink
At the very least, we want an Alex claim here.

1) I don't care if you think the best of you and above every player here... but you can't appeal to experience to pull of scummy actions.
2) DONT underestimate me like that. First, it's stupid. Then, it's scummy. That's called fake scumhunting. Doing something you know, would not work if you were town but you do it all the same to pretend.

Lol, im not sure i understand the first point. The second is somewhat valid. But it isnt true. I just felt it was worth a shot. Admittedly, the delivery was poor.

Again, you consistently assume he is town. If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

Dude... I ADVERTISED this game to other players... I know what kind of setup it is... I can not imagine that you would think otherwise. Therefore your "scumhunting" is not genuine.

Why should i know that you advertised this game to people? Need i point out that i was not among this elite group?

Lol, it wouldnt be funny if i didnt actually want you dead. And if im not willing to put my money where my mouth is, i wont be a great asset to the town now, will i?

it's funny how you feel the need to respond a lot of useless stuff and always try to paint you in a "townie" fashion.[/quuote]

Always? you've given 1 example. haha.

Hasdgfas is fine for a short form. Alot of the players here i dont even know. You asking everyone to abbreviate their names,

is immensely unhelpful

Bolded for emphasis. NOTE HOW YOU ARE ATTACKING ME FOR JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. IT'S A REPETETION ATTACK FROM EVERY SIDE EVEN TO START IMPRINTING IN PEOPLE'S MIND THAT IF YOU HAVE SO MANY THINGS (bull) AGAINST ME THEN THERE MUST BE SOMETHING...
Cool tactic.

Aww shucks. Thanks

BRO

. You should know i dont like being bossed around.

Yep, i've never made any attempt to deny that it seems scummier from my perspective, because i know that the conclusion of such a policy will NOT result in a scum lynch. So of course there is an element of OMGUS. But anyone can see that it is logically flawed, and you yourself must realise that with people like you tailing Mastin like a lost little puppy dog, the rest of us are BOUND to be edgy about craplogic actually leading somewhere.

All I'm reading from this is

preventive

voting. You don't actually think we are scummy. You just want to avoid getting lynched.

Preventive isnt a word either.
Have you never considered that townies might be concerned about being lynched, and hence be paranoid about those who want to lynch them being scum? It's natural.

I'm usually told that setup-speculation is bad, but here we are, wondering how many scum there is and no one has said anything there was anything wrong about it.

Because it's totally and utterly, IRRELEVANT. Commenting on the number of scum we might have on Day 1, is the most pointless exercise i can imagine. Maybe look at it lately, and by all means, err on the side of caution,

but your attempts to bully everyone into believing there are 4 scum, when there is no way in hell you could know that as town, have not gone unnoticed by me

. What annoys me is,

i cant even see a logical reason to make that argument as scum, unless you are just deliberately out to mislead at every turn

, or you wanna get your chips in quick, so you can later cry "I told ya so!"

HAH!

OK PEOPLE! check this out ^^

I wonder why people complain about NK speculation and then say that no one is complaining about setup speculation (Most of us chipped in about the number of scum) and BM decides to think, now, not before, that I'm scummey for it even though from his own point of view is ilogical so he quickly makes up a theory where I'm a SUPER WIFOMER or a unnecesary gloater.

Ok...people? rofl
You're contradicting your own assessment of me. First you claim that im insinuating you are scummy, then you admit that i acknowledge there isnt a scum motive for doing so, unless you are just lying at every turn. Super Wifomer? Who's getting tunnel-visioned OMGUS now? lmao

I dunno how much clearer i can be. You're wrong. Please stop wasting everybody's time.

... you won't flame me up. So don't try. Anyway, I would advise you to stop with the agressive tone.

Haha, you think THAT was flaming? I'm not going to apologise for telling you the truth in a clear and concise manner. You can advise me all you like-until you drop the attitude, i dont think i will take your comments too seriously.

What is the obsession with the RVS about? It's like you portray it as something bad, when in reality, it serves us just fine. Granted, this conversation has induced discussion, but if it wasnt for Mastin, you wouldnt be in this position right now. Maybe you should think again as to whether his plan was quite so good.

I've never played a game without RVS. RVS can be a very easy path for experienced players (and I know there's a lot of them here) that can choose to excuse any scummy action because it was RVS... (ehem, Vote on Mastin, ehem)

There are other alternative game starts, but effectively, random-voting is something of a given. By your own assessment, Mastin did not kill the RVS then?

IIRC there's some important experienced players who say that there's no need for RVS so it's not Mastin's innovative plan. It's something that has been done.

I don't care in wich position you're trying to imply I am. I'm in no bad position. You're just trying to portrait it as if I were.

Haha, this does feel a little like a conspiracy. But i got that impression from the sign-up thread anyway. At some point, the group who came in together will have to start looking at each other critically.

Personally speaking, i only left the RVS with my vote for you. I expect the vast majority are still there, because you dont have anywhere near enough votes.

see? You excuse your mastin vote as RVS... You KEEP pushin my case in the worst possible way. Without

I dont need to excuse it. It could be a perfectly legitimate vote. I'm just being honest-you are far more vote-worthy.

#71 BM's vote on mastin
Mastin NEVER responded... YET, BM unvoted and voted me... scumhunting?

why would i need a response? Are you learning Mafia out of a textbook? lol

Pure, unadulterated OMGUS

NO man... If this is OMGUS Then why isn't omgus what you did to mastin? Come on... I'm just questioning your motives. I didn't jump at you for voting me. But the you keep acting in scummy ways to push a case that really doesn't exist.

Both are somewhat OMGUS.

Ask any other player here if they find your consistent protests about the number of scum wierd, and every single one (probably even your buddies, if they have any sense) will agree with me.

Here is where we draw a line between peculiar and scummy. My actions were not scummy. My actions were Alexhans. I explained my actions. You already made up your mind or are bullshitting so you never tried to logically think about them to realize I was telling the truth and that it was not scummy.

Funny how you can play this card for yourself, but have no tolerance for my playstyle.
Telling the truth? How can you possibly be telling the truth about something you cannot possible know, UNLESS YOU ARE SCUM? *facepalm*

You're just squirming now. lol

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

Again. PROPAGANDA won't work.

That's funny coming from Mr. Monstro-Post. Also, you really think the Nazi Minister for Propaganda and Enlightenment is a reliable source to quote? haha

What's with all the rhetorical questions??

I know SF has a strong personality. I'm just testing the waters. What's wrong with them, anyway? are you just adding fluff to an otherwise lame case?

I'm pointing out that you arent really acting in a protown manner. Rhetorical questions are a classic method of persuasion-you arent trying to find scum, you are trying to make someone look scummier than they actually are. You do it again here. You're trying to come across as an aggressive townie, but it's pretty apparent that it is just a front.

So... YOur question was just a rhetorical question to point I'm scummy? Kudos on the scumhunting then...

Eh?

Lmfao. Confirm Vote: Alex

You cant seriously try and tell me that you believe this Mastin bullcrap is consistent with your own confession-that you might have killed someone random who you dont know? xD

It's amazing. A post full of redundant "I'm convinced, look at me" tactics.
I don't see why that quote would make you confirm my vote. It's just advertisement. I don't believe anybody's bullcrap. I can find something to be plausible, possible, probable or not and I think for myself, thank you.

You havent responded to the point at all, you're merely trying to play it down. Please feel free to actually explain why you defend Mastin's point about N0 speculation being valuable, whilst acknowledging that you might kill randomly, were you scum.

Haha, dont kid yourself bro. YOU aren't going to lynch ME, full stop.

Love the confidence. I was thinking along the same lines about me. But, you know... Anyone can get lynched. Maybe not today. But you can't hide yourself behind experience. If you're scum, you're scum. No matter how many games you've played or how good your rep is.

Well i'd bet good money that i'll be lynched at some point anyway. The general vibe seems to be pretty anti-BM. And i'm not somebody especially difficult to get lynched, experience or no experience. The problem you guys will have, is where to go from there.

Please have the courtesy of quoting the entire backlog of conversation. I have a life outside of the game, and making me go back and read extra every time i come on, is not very friendly.

Ok. I was trying to keep things as shorter as possible but I will do it from now on.

thankyou

In any case, my vote was not without reason. Mastin came right out of the gate pushing an argument that was not only completely illogical, but was also likely to lead to the lynch of AT LEAST 1, and possibly 3 or 4, townies. What do you expect me to do?

Ok. I didnt take it that seriously but I guess it's somewhat valid to vote for him. But... would you lynch him for it?

If i intended to lynch him for it, you'd think i'd still be voting for him now, no?

Then why did you vote for him?

He was the scummiest player at the time, so i voted for him. But it was far too early days to consider a lynch.

The only way you can claim that Mastin destroyed the RVS, is if you assume that he is scum, and/or the wagon on him is legitimate. You don't seem to believe this, thus you cannot claim that we have left the RVS.

what??? I don't follow your logic that the only way in wich RVS was destroyed is if mastin is scum... Could you rephrase it in a way a 5 year old could understand?

Ok. In terms of votes, what Mastin achieved, instead of a random selection of reasonless votes, was a wagon on himself. Now, if you dont think that wagon was legit, then effectively, we are no better off than we would have been with the random stage.

If you believe Mastin has destroyed the RVS, then you are, by definition, acknowledging that the wagon on Mastin is valuable, and most probably, that he is scum.

OK... this seems like Twisted logic 101...

^^ READ THAT TWICE OR THRICE OR AS MANY TIMES AS YOU NEED TO AND TRY TO DISENTANGLE THE MESS

1) Every waggon that forms out of the RVS did not necessarily find scum.
2) Typically, there's a waggon on the active player for being so agressive. I've experienced that it's adequately pushed by scum.
3) The bolded part is contradictory BS from yourself who have tried to paint me as scum buddying up to mastin.

Contradictory? No. You are just desperate to tie me down to 1 particular belief so you can best understand how to handle me. Not gonna happen.
I merely pointed out that, your comments dont add up. If you think Mastin is town, you cant also think that his play was beneficial.

btw, BM, when did you stop beating your wife?

When she got a restraining order. How the f*** did you know about that?!?!?

You can feel free to explain your joke now, given i'm not married, nor do i have any history, or intention of beating women.

2. You admitted above that defending someone looks scummy. Ive been nailed for it in the past, so if you're town, you have my sympathy. But, your buddying is based on nothing, and is completely illogical. You've basically decided he is town off the bat, and then used that claim to lead your suspicions.

No. my suspicions came from the way in wich the waggon form. It's reasons. The quickness of it. I hadn't found anything that indicated mastin-scum and you were all voting the active player for a STRATEGY? yes. Voting someone for an hypothesis was scummy.

No it wasnt. haha.

If you're town, you should see what i see. Or thats how i view things anyway.

The thing is... I'm trying to decide if you're scum or not based on all the inconsistencies and scummy things you seem to try to pull to get my lynch (endless propaganda too).

You really think you can call me on propaganda, when every so often, you taking chunks of posts, put them in bold, and anxiously scream at everyone else to buy into ur bs? lol

haha, you make it sound so scary. I'm capable of thinking 2 moves ahead, if thats what you're actually asking. Wink
At the very least, we want an Alex claim here.

It IS scary. The last time I saw somebody make nested assumptions like that, he was scum. It's much easier for scum to pretend to look a step ahead, because they are ALREADY SURE of the first step (i.e. sure of player 1's alignment, so they pretend to use that assumption to make "guesses" about others' alignments, whereas townies would NOT make these nested assumptions so readily, especially not so early in the game).

GIEFF has a BIG point here. I've seen this attitude in some other games too. Conditioned lynches.

You should read my response to him then. Because anyone who can read, will be painfully aware that i suggested nothing of the sort.

Voting off lurkers is more important then voting scummy players? Where is your priority?

Not where yours is, apparently. Look. When I voted. It was an RVS vote (I give a crap reason for my RVS votes so I can get a reaction, instead of the typical Vote A because he smells like socks) to try and see how the guy reacted. Later on... I awaited patiently for "the ghost's" return so I could question him about anything and try to get a read on him. In a mountanious game, we can not afford lurkers. Also, I don't need to vote to question a scummy player nor I need to find someone scummy to question him...

I'm well aware of the setup thanks. Whether Alex was or not, im not so sure. Why would you not let the trap play out?

BM

Do you think the "If you're cop, claim now" trick has a high rate of succes?

lol. It's hard to picture BM being so naive as town.

Aww, i'm being flamed... lol

Let's talk scenarios here. Say this game wasn't mountainous, and i was asking for a roleclaim. How is that scummy play?

With just one vote on me... it's TERRIBLY scummy. Trying to expose or a cop. Or trying to narrow down the cop pool.

You seem to have a mild obsession with Cops. But, moving past that, the 1 vote, was mine. Therefore, its perfectly legit for me to request a claim, if i feel you ought to be lynched.

If you have any familiarity with my play, you'd know that outright asking for a roleclaim would merely be a BM-tell. Maybe a mild town-tell? I'm not sure.

lol... so you try to pull scummy meta to protect yourself? XD

It's not scummy though. Thats my point. It's just how i roll.

Did Alex recruit Mastin? Because that might explain his odd loyalty to him. I'm surprised you haven't brought this up.

Also, by recruiting you mean what exactly??? there's townies and scum... no cults, no recruiting masons... no nothing... What are you trying to say?

Don't be a douche. Did you recruit Mastin for this game?

Vote stands btw. I love the way suddenly people jump up to defend Alex when the charge is something other than scummy play

what? explain because you're being unclear. Why do you think people are "defending" me? They're just stating what they know... I INVITED many of them to this game. IF they were, in fact, defending me... what do you think it would mean?

Thats a big issue with this game. Alot of you guys allegedly know each other, therefore it's going to be hard to distinguish in-game buddying, from ooc-buddying. On the plus side, if you guys are ALL town, this game should be pretty clear cut.

My point was, as soon as a comment was made about you which wasnt really relevant to you play, you suddenly developed a wealth of support. Notably, these people didnt feel able to jump to your defence where it would actually have meant something.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

Could you explain the reasoning behind it?

I pity the Town if none of you are Scum. That, and I don't think its possible for all 3 of you to be that scummy, but still Town.

And with a scum you mean only one, or atleast one.

How could I possibly know if there is exactly one? This is the type of stuff that put you on the list.

I lol'd.

Unvote, Vote: Gieff

Might as well put my vote somewhere useful.

BM

[Benmage]

Still need to catchup, just skimming a bit...

Wait...really? Then why is one of the newbie setups a 2:7??

I think he was refering to a 2:10 setup without powerroles.

I fully endorse the battle mage wagon.

I was reading you as being more critical of being alex. Was I wrong about this?

Isn't there a newbie 2:7 setup with no powerroles as one of the 4 options..

The battle mage wagon statement was an obvious joke...sometimes sarcasm is difficult to portray through words.

[SensFan]

Still need to catchup, just skimming a bit...

Wait...really? Then why is one of the newbie setups a 2:7??

I think he was refering to a 2:10 setup without powerroles.

I fully endorse the battle mage wagon.

I was reading you as being more critical of being alex. Was I wrong about this?

Isn't there a newbie 2:7 setup with no powerroles as one of the 4 options..

Yes, there is.

What the hell does that have to do with the face an Open 2:10 game is slightly pro-Scum?

[Benmage]

Yes, there is.

What the hell does that have to do with the face an Open 2:10 game is slightly pro-Scum?

I just found it odd, that a 2:10 game never wins. Wouldn't a 2:7 (no PR's) be even harder... Thats all, I was just inquiring.

[SensFan]

Yes, there is.

What the hell does that have to do with the face an Open 2:10 game is slightly pro-Scum?

I just found it odd, that a 2:10 game never wins. Wouldn't a 2:7 (no PR's) be even harder... Thats all, I was just inquiring.

1) Newb Games aren't open
2) Newb Games aren't played anywhere near optimally
3) Newb Games aren't concerned about perfect balance

[Benmage]

Okay, back to my chronological catchup from post 127 and onward.

I have a question for you, alex. You attacked Benmage for jumping on the Mastin wagon, without a good reason, right? Yet at that time (Post 94), Benmage had already given a reason for his vote, in Post 90. But I myself didn't give any explanation whatsoever about my Mastin vote until Post 107. You now claim that you think the Mastin wagon has little reasoning behind it, but why did you focus on attacking Benmage (who had given reasoning for his vote at the time), and yet ignore me (who had not)?

Nice point.

1) NK-speculation distracts

Too much NK speculation in my opinion distracts. Just like to much game setup speculation distracts. But I like to take a personal note of both and value a little commentary.

Can we stop now about the discussion with meta N0 kills?
You talked about how it isn't useless. But don't who the suspects would be according to it.

jammer... there's scum in this game that KNOW the actual motives behind the kill... listening to speculations COULD help us at some point. There's always the chance of a slip or a scummy statement.

Agree.

Independent of your feelings about alex, do YOU think Mastin is town, Battle Mage? Your previous posts seem to indicate otherwise, yet you claim alex KNOWS Mastin is town.

Mastin's behaviour was vaguely scummy, but given how much he posts, and his general meta, not really lynch-worthy. Alex's reaction to him was far scummier, and doesnt make sense with them as scumbuddies. Taking the assumption Alex is scum (which is the assumption i am making if i want him lynched), Mastin is almost certainly town. Of course, if Alex turns out to be town, this condition is no longer met, and Mastin can be looked at again.

This is an interesting point that I sort of agree with. Alex could be scum, but if he wanted to push Mastin’s townness for wifom later purposes, he kind of overreacted with it. Something I’d doubt a scum would commit so heavily to. However if he is scum, and acted this way, kudos to him.

At the very least, we want an Alex claim here.

At the very least… that seems quick and unnecessary.

Again, you consistently assume he is town. If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

Ah...hmm. Could be Mason, could be something else. Who knows, a cop claim now is worthless. Mastin isn’t in danger of being lynched. Plus I’d rather see a cop come out when they can at the very least suicide a scum.

I'm usually told that setup-speculation is bad, but here we are, wondering how many scum there is and no one has said anything there was anything wrong about it.

Because it's totally and utterly, IRRELEVANT. Commenting on the number of scum we might have on Day 1, is the most pointless exercise i can imagine. Maybe look at it lately, and by all means, err on the side of caution, but your attempts to bully everyone into believing there are 4 scum, when there is no way in hell you could know that as town, have not gone unnoticed by me. What annoys me is, i cant even see a logical reason to make that argument as scum, unless you are just deliberately out to mislead at every turn, or you wanna get your chips in quick, so you can later cry "I told ya so!"

Ehh, I was more annoyed at Gieff’s endless tangent here.

I've played with Hascow before and he was not a very active scum player... at least in that game. Maybe it was because the town had 80 % of lynchable material (Empking, Zwets, Dejkha, Wall-e and Hewitt). Anyway... If I had to kill... knowing there were no protections whatsoever... I would've killed... sensfan? Mastin?

someone random that I don't know?

Probably I wouldn't have had a voice in a scumteam....

Lmfao.

Confirm Vote: Alex

You cant seriously try and tell me that you believe this Mastin bullcrap is consistent with your own confession-that you might have killed someone random who you dont know? xD

This is the most successful point I’ve seen you raise against alex, through all the mass of fluff and bantering.

When i disagree with you, just back down, and we'll get on fine. *hugs*

Lol…ya noted.

Ok. In terms of votes, what Mastin achieved, instead of a random selection of reasonless votes, was a wagon on himself. Now, if you dont think that wagon was legit, then effectively, we are no better off than we would have been with the random stage. If you believe Mastin has destroyed the RVS, then you are, by definition, acknowledging that the wagon on Mastin is valuable, and most probably, that he is scum.

Ooo another nice point.

If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

First, this is a mountainous set up. There are only goons and vanilla. Second, if we did have powerroles, this is a horrible idea and is blatantly you rolefishing.

Oh ya duh..confusing games I’m in. So than the point of Alex Knowing Mastin as town could be because he’s scum.

re-

Vote : Gieff

For trying to shove a crapcase down my throat just cuz I like to be nice.
And stop calling me 'abrasive'!
I am sweet as a summer day!

I thought the rvs was over…

Let's talk scenarios here. Say this game wasn't mountainous, and i was asking for a roleclaim. How is that scummy play? In fact, the optimal play would be to subtly hint at him being a cop, and see if he breadcrumbs back. I've done that before, quite recently, in a game that is still ongoing, but might be finished soon.

It is scummy becouse mafia likes to know PR's for obvious reasons.

But..we’re all VT’s in the game.

The pressure on BM is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.

It had a >0% chance of helping the Town, by outing a Scum
It had a 0% chance of hurting the Town

How the fuck can you call that scummy?

Agree.

Ok... I sized this for emphasis...

I didn’t read it because of the size.

Post 174…That was painfully filled with fluff. Disclaimer of fluff at top next time please.

So, to sum up, you claim that your case makes you SO sure that alex is scum that you are willing to make a complete 180 on Mastin, and say that he is town, with a LOT of confidence. Yet as I think I have shown here, many of the points you brought up are not scummy - they are just observations. And as I also think I have shown here, you

LIED

when you said your vote for Mastin was random, to allow yourself to perform the mental gymnastics required to force this case on alex.

Most of his argument seemed like bantering nitpicky fluff. There were a few decent points. I think he was suggesting one point of view wherein Alex could be scum. If that was the case in this specific point of view Mastin would almost certaintly be town. He continues to express that in this perspective if Alex flips town, all assumptions of Mastin would be dropped and we’d return to our previous positions on Mastin before analyzing this Alex point of view. (Which were scummy opinions of Mastin)

1. Umm, first of all, the fact that a high priority player wasn't killed increases the likelyhood that some or all of the priority kills are actually the scum.

Interesting.

Benmage is being Benmage

Huzzah, Kairyuu is growing on me. And I’m going to force myself to (grow on him too?) wow that’s sounds odd.

To note, I’m skimming most of this camn gieff banter. I thought it initiated as a semi-joke vote from camn with a weak previous game analysis by gieff, but is being dragged and dragged and dragged on in my opinion a relatively null case.

Spyrex has 2 posts, and no votes or FOSs.

Just for reference, I think Spyrex is travelling right now so I would guess that his posting would be sporadic until he gets back.

This is true, I think he’ll be back the 20th.

Running to lunch at post 200 top of page 9, will finish catchup real soon.

[GIEFF]

Sensfan has just 1 vote, in his very first post in the thread, which he refuses to explain. This is particularly odd for a player who calls himself "very aggressive", and who is active in other games.

That's a massive misrep. I describe myself as extremely aggressive. Not as vote-happy.

But since you seem to care so much, here's a second one:

Vote: GIEFF

That isn't a misrep at all. What do YOU think an aggressive player does?

One vote would be plenty if it wasn't in the very first post of the game, or if you had also been aggressive and scumhunting. You haven't been. All you've done is thrown out two votes with no explanations, yell at people for discussing the nightkill, ignore any questions asked of you, and said BM is not scummy. How is that aggressive?

Still no reasoning behind your jammer vote, and I won't be holding my breath for reasoning behind this one.


------

The thing is, if you dont think Alex's panicked defence of Mastin was scummy, then i wouldnt expect you to agree with the case on him, because that is pretty much the cornerstone of it.

I DO think it is scummy:

All you really have on alex is that he freaked out about Mastin, which I agree is scummy, but if that's really the main reason you had for wanting to "serious-wagon" him, it makes little sense to completely ignore Mastin, and assume that he is town.

But as I said - all that other stuff you threw in your case was just fluff - you are trying way too hard to push a case on him. And the fact that after saying:

Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans

Serious vote. Serious wagon required.

BM

...you then unvoted without alex doing anything to assuage any suspicion, SHOWS that I was right about your case - you didn't believe it as much as you were claiming you did. If a serious wagon is required, why are you giving it up?

Do you still think Mastin is town, BM?

[Zachrulez]

Battle Mage, why did you unvote Alex?

I'm going crazy trying to read your text walls of reasoning for voting him in he first place.

[alexhans]

I actually tried... I need to check this more often and write shorter posts...

GIEFF pointed a couple of things in a meta search and camn reacted very strongly calling it a crapcase and voting GIEFF when it was not

PS, GIEFF..... you have already totally proven that you don't really understand how to use Meta.... so any meta arguments you might bring are pretty worthless, IMO.

quotes like this one ^^ make camn sound really strange because she doesn't seem to imply she think GIEFF is scummy. It's more like he pissed her off or something.

You have no idea what town-camn would do.
You have proven this.

Everything you have written is insane speculation... you need to be more clear.

Are you asking where I was this weekend?

camn... why are you acting like empking? like a stubborn kid that knows deep inside that he is wrong? You over reacted to some points he made.

He said you looked like buddying and he metaed you...
You totally overreacted and voted him but never called him scummy.
#185 is lame camn... what are those 2 crapcases you claim that GIEFF made? What does your birthday have to do with the fact that you posted but were most unhelpful and odd?

Everything I have written is speculation, but calling it insane does not make it insane, no more than calling my posts crapcases is enough to make them crappy. Yet once again, I feel that your focus is not on calling me scummy - you only call my cases crap because you want to protect yourself

QFT. You don't seem to find him scummy. Yet, a vote.
187: Camn... You're REALLY starting to give me Emp-vibes... what's wrong with you?
"When I totally refuted and destroyed your case (in 149), I asked YOU some questions.. which you have totally ignored. "??? what the fuck??? You say nothing here... You just cover your ears and yell...
"YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG!"

#189: So Kai? Not one suspicion?

Uhh, okay wow…uhm hop of his dick. The caps adds to anything?

They express my annoyance.

3-4 votes in this large game isn’t a dreadful wagon, so chill.

I know it's not THAT big but it does set a tendency that I'm trying to avoid. Look how some people already thought this in terms of:
Today's topics:
1) BM vs Alexhans
2) GIEFF vs Camn
Wooooooh!! let's ignore everything else!!!!
My point is that if you waggon someone then it's starts to be an acceptable lynch at the end of the day.

And where the hell is Mastin by the way? I'm expecting him to post. He was active on site...

Alexhans, why so upset about Mastin being bandwagoned?

I see no reasons for voting him but atacking the first one who makes something to move the game. He is acting as he usually does and his auto-clearing doesn't seem scummy to me. Just mastin's personality. I should check a game where he is scum to have more information but from what I have now he is not scummy.

I'm not liking a fast waggon on an active, pro town player...

We should worry about those who DONT post or post null opinions and keep discussing everything...

Acting the same way one does when town doesn’t clear them.

??? explain...

Agreed. Ironically, Alex mentions M91 as solid reason for NK speculation, noting that Sens’ N0 death wasn’t random. Except the other scum group, which I was a part of, removed everyone we played with from the player list and then randomly killed from that list N0 as to throw off townies trying to do this exact kind of speculation.

WOW*****can we lynch Mastin yet?

Read my Quicktopic quotes and tell me if all the kills are random and who has made his point regarding the killing motives.

First this whole ‘big post’ seems like alex took some chill pills and may be trying to relax off the MASTIN is confirmed town mentality, which is an odd quick switch.

let's clear something up...
You think I think Mastin is confirmed town?
Did you read the NutSoCaps? Read it again... maybe you'll see that I NEVER ignore the possibility that he may be scum... I was just annoyed at an unreasoned (IMO, and I still dont see much besides he's apparent clearing himself) quickwaggon and the fact that it was built upon the most active player at the time. Wich is something I hate about mafia. When active players get attacked for being active and scum may safely glide around.

Also my vote forced? What the fuck does that even mean. Are you suggesting that the 3-4 of us on Mastin all plotted to vote quickly and wagon him. No scum would ever do that. Don’t be an idiot.

If you haven't fully understood what I mean. Don't call me an idiot.

Vote Forced means that you try to make your vote sound convinced and strong when you really don't feel it. You don't even talk much about mastin in the post where you voted him but still did at the end... You jumped on a full growing waggon without much thought? cool. Very pro town.

motives for a mastin vote from Benmage:

a) Mastin may be scum and may be acting ilogically
b) He's going after Battle Mage.
c) ...
d) there's not even a c) man... do you expect a d)?

later, you develop on matin that he seemed to try to auto-clear himself.

And that's it...
Now you feel that those points are good enough to push his vote.

Simply saying "I like you" isn't enough to be buddying, in my opinion.

I agree.

I was not reacting particularly strongly, in my opinion.

Camn... you voted him... and acted all "Angry"... Any you keep ad homin him with no explanation when all the cases you quoted as you buddying as town were all subject to opinion.

I made no Joke. You attest I made a joke.. but I see no smiley face. Your assumption is wrong. Probably it is just a lie. Thus, again, you are simply trying to change the subject, and it doesn't deserve anything but my scorn and disdain.

riiiiight... Because we know that you only make jokes with smileys beside them...

I'm so much more on GIEFF's side of this conversation... You have been completely stubborn, ilogical and evasive.

@Camn: Who do you think is scum? (Besides GIEFF if you actually think he is)

I fully endorse the battle mage wagon.

I was reading you as being more critical of being alex. Was I wrong about this?

if you quote the whole thing you will see that it is a joke.

Spyrex has 2 posts, and no votes or FOSs.
Cephrir has 3 non-"will catch up later" posts, and none since 4 days ago.
Sensfan has just 1 vote, in his very first post in the thread, which he refuses to explain. This is particularly odd for a player who calls himself "very aggressive", and who is active in other games.

I agree with this. We all have to be active... Spyrex is on V/LA till 20... I'm gonna ask the mod to replace him... 12 straight days without playing (especially on day 1) hurts this game a great deal. There's good players waiting out there.

I'm not liking Sensfan's attitude of not adding practically anything and acting as if he had psychic powers that could solve this game whenever he wanted...

He is supposed to be confrontational but is not using it to scumhunt... He seems to be playing his role...

It doesnt apply more to Mastin than to Alex. Mastin is the kind of player that will happily shake things up at the start of the game, just for the sake of saying "OMGZ, I KILLED THE RVS". Alex on the other hand, does not have the same meta excuse in my book. The fact he agrees, but hides behind Mastin's coat-tails, seems scummier, dont ya think?

When are you gonna read???!!! dude... I SAID I never played in a game without RVS!! Obviously I don't have any related meta... I thought RVS it was the way to go but seeing the amount of experienced players I liked this turn of events where we got serious from the start.

[*]

Alex is desperate to push the 4 scum theory, yet town should be cautious.

This is incorrect – it is actually MORE cautious to leave the door open to the possibility of 4 scum.

Erm, i didnt even say this. GG reading comprehension. xD

yes you did.

It's really wierd how you are desperate to push the 4 scum theory, but it is in the interests of the town anyway to promote cautiousness.

Haha, what?? This is going a little downhill now bro. Given everything that has occurred, what is not scummy about asserting Mastin is protown under so little evidence?

Let's clear something up...
Pro-Town: He acts in a way that helps town. Not lurking, scumhunting, etc. (this can be faked by good scum)
Anti-Town: He acts in a way that is a detriment to town. Lurking. Evading questions. Tunnel vision. etc.

Both of this can be town or scum. The important thing is that if there's a pro-town scum we have a lot of info to search from his posts making it still useful.
If all town players were pro-town. That would force scum players to act accordingly to hide amongst them. Then, it would be very hard for them to win.

I asserted Mastin is pro-town. I didn't assert his allignment is town.

And, also, why do you assert I'm scum under so little reasoning and why do you use that reasoning to chain the assertion that Mastin is town?

The thing is, if you dont think Alex's panicked defence of Mastin was scummy, then i wouldnt expect you to agree with the case on him, because that is pretty much the cornerstone of it.

dude... If, as you say, I'm scum... and Mastin is town... why the fuck woudld I panic? I could only have a motive of panic if I we both were scum or we both were town and I strongly suspected him to be town...

Also, skimming down your post-what do you feel required response in post 144? As far as i am concerned, suggesting an anti-pairing is hardly anything to get edgy about.

No... Anti pairing can get 2 town players lynched... If you think mastin's NK theory is BS... then Antipairing should be much more BS. It's like when you say... well if player A doesn't die tonight then he is scum... Obv, scum won't kill him knowing you will be foolish enough to lynch him the next day.

lmao. Is saying "bro" a well known scumtell these days?

BM

Yes! It totally is!!! You should be dismembered and fed to rottweilers.

Sensfan has just 1 vote, in his very first post in the thread, which he refuses to explain. This is particularly odd for a player who calls himself "very aggressive", and who is active in other games.

That's a massive misrep. I describe myself as extremely aggressive. Not as vote-happy.

But since you seem to care so much, here's a second one:

Vote: GIEFF

Is GIEFF Scum, Sensfan?
Who do you think is scummy?

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

I'm much more wary of the following group:
Sensfan, Battle Mage.

Why are you not explaining ANYTHING? I knew I would end up fighting with you... but you can not continue to play like this and expect someone to follow you...
You're not Sherlock Holmes, your allignment is not confirmed town. So you will have to play like everybody else and explain your posts...

Why am I possible scum? Why is jammer possible scum? and why is GIEFF possible scum?
That goes to you to camn... Don't say that BM is scummier or we are both townies or whatever without explaining.

I pity the Town if none of you are Scum. That, and I don't think its possible for all 3 of you to be that scummy, but still Town.

lol... already excusing the fact that you might be mistaken? nice.
why is GIEFF scummier than jammer or me?

How could I possibly know if there is exactly one? This is the type of stuff that put you on the list.

ohh... so scumhunting puts him on the list.... cool.

Why should i know that you advertised this game to people? Need i point out that i was not among this elite group?

You need not. But there were hints in the sign up thread that you, apparently, didn't get.

Preventive isnt a word either

I meant preemptive Mrs.Magda.

Have you never considered that townies might be concerned about being lynched, and hence be paranoid about those who want to lynch them being scum? It's natural.

I know. I don't want to be lynched, ever. But did mastin's theory meant he was scum? Or are you saying that you prefer to remove a threat to you no taking into account his allignment?

You're contradicting your own assessment of me. First you claim that im insinuating you are scummy, then you admit that i acknowledge there isnt a scum motive for doing so, unless you are just lying at every turn. Super Wifomer? Who's getting tunnel-visioned OMGUS now? lmao

...
dude... I don't even know what to say to you... your sentence doesn't make sense... although you manage to paint me as either an idiot or a liar without explaining anything. Then... you call me tunnel visioned???? me??

I'm not even gonna respond to that...

I'm looking at everyone. I haven't voted you (still). I'm trying to look at all players. I'm trying to read a whole game and not just one quote or one moment. I'm definetly NOT tunnelvisioned and not OMGUSing because I never voted you. I'm just pointing the scummy and fake things about your case.

There are other alternative game starts, but effectively, random-voting is something of a given. By your own assessment, Mastin did not kill the RVS then?

BM... you're not a lawyer so quit acting like one... lame questions suck. Mastin did kill the RVS IMO. I agreed to the decease of the RVS. There was already a couple of things to talk about.

Haha, this does feel a little like a conspiracy. But i got that impression from the sign-up thread anyway. At some point, the group who came in together will have to start looking at each other critically.

lol... are you scared? I invited a lot of players here. I know that the odds of all of them being scum must be amazingly low, so I won't even think about it. I'll just play a normal game. I invited people I thought would be active and would make this an enjoyable experience.

why would i need a response? Are you learning Mafia out of a textbook? lol

I'm writing it. I'll give it to you as a present on your birthday.

Ask any other player here if they find your consistent protests about the number of scum wierd, and every single one (probably even your buddies, if they have any sense) will agree with me.

Here is where we draw a line between peculiar and scummy. My actions were not scummy. My actions were Alexhans. I explained my actions. You already made up your mind or are bullshitting so you never tried to logically think about them to realize I was telling the truth and that it was not scummy.

Funny how you can play this card for yourself, but have no tolerance for my playstyle.

That was my point exactly. You excused your actions as playstyle but not mine...

Telling the truth? How can you possibly be telling the truth about something you cannot possible know, UNLESS YOU ARE SCUM? *facepalm*

wtf man? you just don't learn do you? You keep trying to go for semantics out of context? Do you even READ what you're saying? It seems to me like you read a sentence and say whatever BS comes to your mind.

That's funny coming from Mr. Monstro-Post. Also, you really think the Nazi Minister for Propaganda and Enlightenment is a reliable source to quote? haha

BM missed a point ONCE AGAIN!
Yes, I'm comparing you to him!!!! you're using the same tactics.

You havent responded to the point at all, you're merely trying to play it down. Please feel free to actually explain why you defend Mastin's point about N0 speculation being valuable, whilst acknowledging that you might kill randomly, were you scum.

I can't anymore man... READ BACK...

It's a valid source of investigation. It's not a foolproof theory to lynch someone but it's STILL good and discussion about is very healthy IMO. Didn't you read the first options I gave before random? One was a rep kill (SensFan), the other was Mastin (I admire his scumhunting), then it came a random one... But, as always, you only look a little piece and not at the full picture.

You seem to have a mild obsession with Cops.

huh?

But, moving past that, the 1 vote, was mine. Therefore, its perfectly legit for me to request a claim, if i feel you ought to be lynched.

I'm not gonna follow up on this because it won't take us anywhere but...
come on...

Don't be a douche. Did you recruit Mastin for this game?

ohhh!!! I see what you mean now... lol... Yes. I did invite him to the game.

I invited:
qwints, StrangerCoug, VPBaltar, molestargazer, Vi, Shanba, Stephoscope, Kairyuu, Zachrulez, Mastin, WhiteCastle, Firestarter, KublaiKhan, Korlash, orangepenguin, RedCoyote, Battousai, camn and DebonairDannyDiPietro.

I've only played one game with most of this people... And I don't think they will think of me implicitly as town... The "support" that you claim they gave me was because you pretended I didn't know the setup when I advertised it to them stating clearly that it was a mountanious game... NO PR's involved. I even called it the real deal mafia or something
-------------------

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

Could you explain the reasoning behind it?

I pity the Town if none of you are Scum. That, and I don't think its possible for all 3 of you to be that scummy, but still Town.

And with a scum you mean only one, or atleast one.

How could I possibly know if there is exactly one? This is the type of stuff that put you on the list.

I lol'd.

Unvote, Vote: Gieff

Might as well put my vote somewhere useful.

BM

... , ... and more ...

wTf, WTF and wtF?

May I ask why did you vote GIEFF? How is it useful? do you think he is scum? Why? Are you certain he is scum?
--------------------------

Oh ya duh..confusing games I’m in. So than the point of Alex Knowing Mastin as town could be because he’s scum.

dude... are you that lost? So BM asking for a claim didn't bother you at all? weird. Rolefishing is not scummy?

Post 174…That was painfully filled with fluff. Disclaimer of fluff at top next time please.

No... I was responding to BM's bullshit.

Most of his argument seemed like bantering nitpicky fluff. There were a few decent points.

I think he was suggesting one point of view wherein Alex could be scum.

If that was the case in this specific point of view Mastin would almost certaintly be town. He continues to express that in this perspective if Alex flips town, all assumptions of Mastin would be dropped and we’d return to our previous positions on Mastin before analyzing this Alex point of view. (Which were scummy opinions of Mastin)

BM acted "certain" that I was scum in all of his posts...
------------------------
- Vi and RedCoyote were willing to play.

Mod: Did you let Vi know that we need him to replace in?
are you considering replacing SpyreX? Will the deadline give us enough time for him to catch up and give us enough input?

[GIEFF]

Telling the truth? How can you possibly be telling the truth about something you cannot possible know, UNLESS YOU ARE SCUM? *facepalm*

wtf man? you just don't learn do you? You keep trying to go for semantics out of context? Do you even READ what you're saying? It seems to me like you read a sentence and say whatever BS comes to your mind.

I don't think this is just semantics. When you said "telling the truth" it looked like you were referring to the possibility of 4 scum - is that correct? If not, what truth were you referring to?


Here is your quote (Post 174), in full context:

Ask any other player here if they find your consistent protests about the number of scum wierd, and every single one (probably even your buddies, if they have any sense) will agree with me.

Here is where we draw a line between peculiar and scummy. My actions were not scummy. My actions were Alexhans. I explained my actions. You already made up your mind or are bullshitting so you never tried to logically think about them to realize I was telling the truth and that it was not scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Alex, I think you just booted my post 1/4 of the way up the scroll bar there.

I still have to catch up, and the text walls are not making is easy.

Though I will say right now that I'm not liking what I am seeing from Battle Mage so far.

[alexhans]

ok... seriously... no more wall posts... I'm gonna ignore BM when he makes little bs points... and try to speak more generally about whole posts...