Mini 816: Revenge of the Monkey(GAME OVER!)

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: You show ryan2754 as simultaneously voting Devestation and dramonic.

[Konowa]

unvote;

vote Devestation

Posting from iPhone while on Metro heading home from D.C. I will post more when I get home.

[Devestation]

SC BOTH of your questions are answered in that post, please read harder.

Konowa I await your post with general irritation. If its because I didnt consider the topic at the time, you've already had that explained too.

[dramonic]

Mod: You show ryan2754 as simultaneously voting Devestation and dramonic.

Indeed, his real vote is on me <<

[StrangerCoug]

SC BOTH of your questions are answered in that post, please read harder.

You don't want to lynch a player for their honest opinion. Fine. You think I'm scummy for wanting to lynch a player for that honest opinion. Fine. Why, however, are you calling said opinion the biggest scumtell in the game? I'm not connecting the dots here.

[Konowa]

@Devestation - So the biggest scumtell to you so far is an opinion on theory? Also, as SC has said, if you think it is a scumtell why are you giving him scum points for pursuing charter?

Regarding jesters, they, in my opinion, have no place in normal games and should only be in bastard/open setups. So yes, bringing up jesters is scummy as it introduces a whole different type of WIFOM to the game.

@Dramonic - What is your opinion on Devestation? I have asked you this before, I am asking you again.

[charlatan]

@Devestation - So the biggest scumtell to you so far is an opinion on theory? Also, as SC has said, if you think it is a scumtell why are you giving him scum points for pursuing charter?

This is the right question.

Furthermore, Dev, if you actually consider it a scumtell (the word you used), then you have no reason not to be voting him. You seem to be saying scumtell on one hand and thinking "mistaken town tell" in your mind. If his opinion indicates he's scum, he should be lynched, easy call. This disparate stance is enough to bump you into my #1 slot, but I'm not eager to put you at L-1 at this second.

Regarding jesters, they, in my opinion, have no place in normal games and should only be in bastard/open setups. So yes, bringing up jesters is scummy as it introduces a whole different type of WIFOM to the game.

Agreed in general, though there

are

other places to play mafia in which they're more common, since games are quicker (especially EpicMafia). I'm not too hung up on this one.

However, Devestation is just a pile of scuminess and is probably a good call for today's lynch. My top three haven't changed in a while, but he's eeked into the #1 position.

I also don't consider defensiveness a scumtell in general, but Dev's is a special kind of defensiveness that I

do

consider scummy. For example:

When I'm not constantly having to defend my own actions I will think more about the actions of others.

In isolation you'll see he's made several comments like this. The gist of it is, "if you want me to scumhunt, let me off the hook." That's not how it works. You get off the hook by showing yourself to be pro-town and making people rethink their assertions: so far, no dice.

[dramonic]

@Konowa

I'm torn now. I was fine with his not bandwagonning ways, I guess it's a style of play or something, but it feels like he's not putting as much effort in this game as he should...

That, and the fact he think Charter's pro-wagon stance is a scumtell is kind of bad. It's very anti-town (Charter's thinking), but I wouldn't call it scummy, since it HAS a chance to hit scum, albeit very random.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count
With 12 playing, it requires 7 to lynch

Devestation(4) - Sajin, charter, StrangerCoug, Konowa
Dramonic(2) - Scott Brosius, Ryan2754
StrangerCoug(1) - charlatan
Scott Brosius(1) - AdamNW
Pim(1) - Snake
Ryan2754(1) - Pim

[Devestation]

SC BOTH of your questions are answered in that post, please read harder.

You don't want to lynch a player for their honest opinion. Fine. You think I'm scummy for wanting to lynch a player for that honest opinion. Fine. Why, however, are you calling said opinion the biggest scumtell in the game? I'm not connecting the dots here.

Possibly because I do not bother to call out my own scumtells? According to anyone thats posted in the last 72 hours or so, everyone else is clean. Unless of course, nobody is looking.

[Devestation]

@Devestation - So the biggest scumtell to you so far is an opinion on theory? Also, as SC has said, if you think it is a scumtell why are you giving him scum points for pursuing charter?

Regarding jesters, they, in my opinion, have no place in normal games and should only be in bastard/open setups. So yes, bringing up jesters is scummy as it introduces a whole different type of WIFOM to the game.

@Dramonic - What is your opinion on Devestation? I have asked you this before, I am asking you again.

Because, like what you said yourself in post 120, "For you be attacking him this hard over theory is very scummy". You even voted in that one, and I don't vote without a heck of a lot more evidence than that. Don't be a hypocrite.

Second paragraph is noted (plays a fair bit of EM).

[dramonic]

Although from what I seen Jesters are kinda rare here, I don't think speculating on one is exactly a scum or town tell, it's pretty null IMO

[StrangerCoug]

SC BOTH of your questions are answered in that post, please read harder.

You don't want to lynch a player for their honest opinion. Fine. You think I'm scummy for wanting to lynch a player for that honest opinion. Fine. Why, however, are you calling said opinion the biggest scumtell in the game? I'm not connecting the dots here.

Possibly because I do not bother to call out my own scumtells? According to anyone thats posted in the last 72 hours or so, everyone else is clean. Unless of course, nobody is looking.

Oh come on. Nine pages and you don't have a better response than that?
Several connections have been proposed throughout the game: you and Scott Brosius, Snake and me, dramonic and me, charter and Konowa, etc. You have nothing to say to support or debunk any of those? Thanks for telling everybody you're not scumhunting. (I'm not saying that you have to give two people who you think are scumbuddies, but my point is there's a lot out there and you don't seem to care about commenting on any of it.)

Although from what I seen Jesters are kinda rare here, I don't think speculating on one is exactly a scum or town tell, it's pretty null IMO

I frown upon jester speculation in a normal, but I agree with you that it's null in the long run.

[ryan2754]

Unvote: dramonic

Combining Devestation's "scumtell" on game theory and reluctance to scumhunt until he's off the hook, warrants a big fat

Vote: Devestation

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Prods? Status of anybody still with a prod out?

[Devestation]

All those connections just turn into WIFOMs in my mind, but thats just the way I think.

Nobody seems to have accepted my reason for not hunting, so I offer you none more. Yes, you've completely outreasoned me. Yes, I skimp off other peoples scum-hunting and rarely put effort into it unless I've actually noticed something seriously odd, and when I voice the things I find seriously odd I get a few more votes on me.

Finally, I have a 16 hour school excursion tomorrow to a place with a wind that bites. I will either be V/LA for 24-28 hours, or V/LA for some weeks while I recover from Swine flu (or don't).

[charlatan]

All those connections just turn into WIFOMs in my mind, but thats just the way I think.

I don't see any of the things that have been said about you as WIFOM.

Nobody seems to have accepted my reason for not hunting, so I offer you none more.

In my experience, there is never a good reason for a town player not to scumhunt.

Yes, you've completely outreasoned me. Yes, I skimp off other peoples scum-hunting and rarely put effort into it unless I've actually noticed something seriously odd, and when I voice the things I find seriously odd I get a few more votes on me.

I don't think anyone's voting you simply for lack of scumhunting; it's not quite as easy as that. I'll sum up the case as I see it to give you a last chance to change my mind, otherwise I'm probably going to hammer pretty soon.

Bare bones summary:

1) Overly cautious in the early game; likely an attempt to look like careful town.
2) Pretending three votes is a big, dangerous bandwagon and trying to present Charter as scummy for starting it.
3) Saying Charter's stance on wagons is a huge scumtell, but not wanting to lynch him for it. Seems like a likely slip.
4) Defensive play coupled with appeals to emotion that project the idea that you're being treated unfairly.

Again, please claim immediately.

Also, in case this day ends more quickly than I expect it to, let the record reflect that ryan's L-1 vote is scummy.

[dramonic]

Ì don't know where he lives, but I think he won't be back soon enough to answer your questions Charlatan.

[StrangerCoug]

All those connections just turn into WIFOMs in my mind, but thats just the way I think.

Uhh... Suggesting that people are connected is not WIFOM. Yes, it's possible for only one of the pair to be scum, but the later in the game the more they help. I direct you to Mini 677, where a strong connection between BlakAdder and me developed—and on Day 1, too.

Nobody seems to have accepted my reason for not hunting, so I offer you none more.

Good, because not hunting is scummy.

Yes, you've completely outreasoned me. Yes, I skimp off other peoples scum-hunting and rarely put effort into it unless I've actually noticed something seriously odd, and when I voice the things I find seriously odd I get a few more votes on me.

Don't give up! As long as you're not lynched, you still have a chance. I get mislynched frequently, but I don't give up and let it happen—I fight back as hard as I can. While townies shouldn't put their lives first, they shouldn't put them last either.

I'd ask Devestation to claim or die, but I'm convinced he's scum, so I don't mind a hammer at this point.

[ryan2754]

Also, in case this day ends more quickly than I expect it to, let the record reflect that ryan's L-1 vote is scummy.

I am intrigued as to how so?

[charter]

dramonic, nothing in post 148 is the reason I'm doing anything. My reasons have already been stated.

149- Stranger, I don't consider your post 9 to be mentioning Devastation at all. 14, maybe, but you mention him only in passing, and your opinion on him is weak. In 16 you don't say anything about Devastation either. Mentioning his name doesn't equate to giving your opinion on him.

What game? I've played/modded too many games to have mental notes on everything that's happened in my games; that's why I comment on them after I'm done.

The one I mentioned in post 83. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182

Charter is my no.1 scum right now. He doesn't care who gets lynched, he just jumps on the highest wagon.

I do care who gets lynched, where have I said/suggested otherwise? How is jumping on the highest wagon indicative of scum?

So you think that that question was pointless? Why were you asking pointless questions then?

I thought your question was pointless. I don't ask questions unless I have a reason.

It doesn't matter how many you show that helped town. The second you showed the one you the won game as scum, that's when all the reasons to bandwagon went down the drain.

Yes, it does matter. It's certainly not a scumtell if it helps town, which I showed. You're avoiding giving evidence of your position, instead you're just saying mine is wrong, and not giving evidence why. So, for the last time, where is your evidence that bandwagoning doesn't help town?

People are more likely to talk and slip under pressure, but right now with all the lurkers we can't even havev 4 players on one wagon, it's a bit ridiculous.

Pretty sure you're scum too. All you're doing is bitching about lurkers, not looking for scum one bit. You also vote me for bandwagoning, but how do you expect to pressure people if not with bandwagons? You're also not trying to discern my alignment, you just declared me to be scum early and are still running with it.

182-183- I like these votes on dramonic.

207- WHAT THE FU!#*%#$@ Explain how you arrive at

That, and the fact he think Charter's pro-wagon stance is a scumtell is kind of bad. It's very anti-town (Charter's thinking), but I wouldn't call it scummy, since it HAS a chance to hit scum, albeit very random.

When you've previously said

My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

I'm not as sure SC is in the scum triangle with Devastation and dramonic. I AM

(almost entirely)

sure however, that dramonic and Devastation are scumbuddies and willing to lynch either today without further ado.

[dramonic]

People are more likely to talk and slip under pressure, but right now with all the lurkers we can't even have 4 players on one wagon, it's a bit ridiculous.

Pretty sure you're scum too. All you're doing is bitching about lurkers, not looking for scum one bit. You also vote me for bandwagoning, but how do you expect to pressure people if not with bandwagons? You're also not trying to discern my alignment, you just declared me to be scum early and are still running with it.

For the nth time, I'm voting you because of your quickwagonning playstyle. Weither you like it or not, you've given proof that it can benefit scum very well, therefore it's crap. I'd much rather lynch an anti-town with a deranged playstyle than swing my vote randomly at the highest wagon just cus. What's so hard to understand about that?

Oh, and let's play a game. If you can find one place where I said you were scum you get a cookie.

207- WHAT THE FU!#*%#$@ Explain how you arrive at

That, and the fact he think Charter's pro-wagon stance is a scumtell is kind of bad. It's very anti-town (Charter's thinking), but I wouldn't call it scummy, since it HAS a chance to hit scum, albeit very random.

When you've previously said

My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

Must I define anti-town for you? scum-benificial = nuisance to the town = anti-town =/= scummy.

I said that your behaviour was anti-town and scum-beneficial, but not scummy. Doesn't sound complicated to me -_-

[charlatan]

Also, in case this day ends more quickly than I expect it to, let the record reflect that ryan's L-1 vote is scummy.

I am intrigued as to how so?

You popped in to parrot two points I raised against Dev a few posts earlier and then bump him to L-1 without further explanation. At best, you're following the pack without doing your own legwork. At worst, you're scum trying to nudge Dev towards the edge.

[StrangerCoug]

149- Stranger, I don't consider your post 9 to be mentioning Devastation at all. 14, maybe, but you mention him only in passing, and your opinion on him is weak. In 16 you don't say anything about Devastation either. Mentioning his name doesn't equate to giving your opinion on him.

I was talking to Devestation in my post #9. In it, I say that worrying about a jester is not indicative of scumminess, but paranoia, an opinion I would later support in #30. I had a weak opinion of Devestation in #14 because he honestly wasn't that high on my scumlist at the time, and in #16 I acknowledge that there is a case on him, however weak it was. Your complaint about me in your post #12 was that I didn't mention Devestation at all, name or otherwise, before my post #17, not that I wasn't giving opinions about him before that (neither of which are true, by the way):

This is false. I've touched on the same Devestation-Scott Brosius connection that your posts imply to exist, and by saying I'm not fond of Konowa, I imply that I'm leaning scum on him. Me talking mostly about you ≠ me talking only about you.

No, as far as I can tell, the only time you've mentioned Devestation is your post 19 (which is after you made this post).

[charter]

Oh, well, I meant mention him as in give your opinion on him, which I think you only did weakly, but you have now, so I'm dropping that.

I'm pretty sure dramonic and Devastation are scum together.
dramonic defends and clarifies for Dev in post 148 and still goes on about voting for me.
dramonic leaves Dev out of his lurkerlist in post 152 while blaming lurkers for whatever, though Dev was definately a lurker at that point. He also gives a very weak neutral read on Dev and gives no reason.
Then in 154 he admits that Dev hasn't done anything this game (which gives him town cred and makes him not a lurker, which makes no sense)
In 186 he unvotes me and leaves it at that. Doesn't put out another vote. Doesn't say who he's suspicious of. Basically just waiting until it's safe for him to do something.
Also he tries to start up an alt hunt (horridly scummy) on Pim (who does need to post...)
Basically everything he's said on this page has just been active lurking (post 221 excluded, though it doesn't say much either) and the scummiest thing I find about dramonic is how he is completely and totally ignoring the Devastation wagon. He is posting plenty, but not saying anything about it at all. He's not doing anything at all. Not voting, not questioning anyone. All I know about him right now is that he doesn't like lurkers.

This all leads (and pretty conclusively) to both dramonic and Devastation being scumbuddies.