Stars Aligned - GAME OVER

[arelian]

Here's a thought:

Would there have been any action a cultist could have wanted to take other than craft fetish last night? Would there be any point in doing something else?

Assuming there are 6-7 cultists, (1/4th of the playerbase), let's assume that each one of the them crafted a fetish of a different person. That means 6-7 people will have heard noise from the craft fetish action. We have 9 people so far who claimed noise, 2 of which warded. Meaning that if anyone stalked, it likely overlapped with a fetish, or we have very few people who actually stalked last night.

Don't know exactly what this could mean, just throwing it out there.

[Kise]

{Need to read pages 3+}

Sorry guys. I'm back.

[Drench]

vote:Mastin

Care to actually give any sort of reason for this? Or are you just opportunistically hopping on the bandwagon?

Beat me to it. Damn sleep.

I'd also like to point out something: since becoming a Murderer is an insanity, and you are allowed to take one stalk action and one murder action as an Investigator, wouldn't that mean that all Investigators have a one-shot vig?

[chenhsi]

Yes. It is like all players being JOATs, except that some actions can be done multiple times, if you have the equipment.

[Kise]

But the key bit is, if you warded someone, we need to know who. We then know that person is not in danger of dying tonight, so they do not need to be doctored.

Warded dramonic.

[Drench]

Okay. So then this wagon on Mastin (which as far as I can see is based on his habit of voting himself first post), which as far as I can see is a policy lynch, can be stopped, right? Couldn't we just vig him instead and free up the lynch to, you know, catch scum?

...and as I read back this point has been made. Rereading so I can offer some new content.

[Exalt]

Okay. So then this wagon on Mastin (which as far as I can see is based on his habit of voting himself first post), which as far as I can see is a policy lynch, can be stopped, right? Couldn't we just vig him instead and free up the lynch to, you know, catch scum?

...and as I read back this point has been made. Rereading so I can offer some new content.

It isn't a policy lynch, because he won't even defend himself. The guy is a retard and did it to himself at this point for making himself look so scummy and then refusing to defend himself.

When he has players like you to call it a policy lynch instead of calling it scummy, it looks even worse. At that point, you never can tell if he is scum or not can you? He mine as well pretend he is scum all game because if we lynch him it is a policy lynch!

Btw, are we sure there is even a VIG in this game? I don't think there is unless someone turns murderer. Town only has investigators, but you would know that if you were town, wouldn't you?

VOTE: Drench

[chenhsi]

Okay. So then this wagon on Mastin (which as far as I can see is based on his habit of voting himself first post), which as far as I can see is a policy lynch, can be stopped, right? Couldn't we just vig him instead and free up the lynch to, you know, catch scum?

...and as I read back this point has been made. Rereading so I can offer some new content.

It isn't a policy lynch, because he won't even defend himself.

Technically, he did, you just don't like his defense.

The guy is a retard and did it to himself at this point for making himself look so scummy and then refusing to defend himself.

Be nice, and he has not refused to defend himself. I also don't think he is particularly scummy.

When he has players like you to call it a policy lynch instead of calling it scummy, it looks even worse. At that point, you never can tell if he is scum or not can you? He mine as well pretend he is scum all game because if we lynch him it is a policy lynch!

? I'm confused as to what your meaning in the last sentence is. I personally don't think that a policy lynch are needed for Mastin, because I consider it a null tell.

Btw, are we sure there is even a VIG in this game? I don't think there is unless someone turns murderer. Town only has investigators, but you would know that if you were town, wouldn't you?

There are no vigs. However, every player has the ability to stalk and kill, while remaining town, so everyone is technically a 1-shot vig.

[Kise]

Lynch, vig-kill... one in the same as far as I'm concerned.

Vote: Drench

If you don't think he's lynch-worthy but do think he is vig-worthy, something isn't adding up. Either you want him dead or not.

[chenhsi]

In summary, Mastin is not the lynch for today. He has not been particularly scummy. If someone doesn't like his behaviour, than they can vig him themselves. I agree with Drench, and think that we should lynch potential scum, not people with a non-standard-town-looking meta.

I don't think that we should lynch him. I don't think that we should vig him. My point is that if OTHERS don't like him, they should deal with it or vig him themselves. I personally don't disapprove of Mastin's behaviour.

[Drench]

Okay. So then this wagon on Mastin (which as far as I can see is based on his habit of voting himself first post), which as far as I can see is a policy lynch, can be stopped, right? Couldn't we just vig him instead and free up the lynch to, you know, catch scum?

...and as I read back this point has been made. Rereading so I can offer some new content.

It isn't a policy lynch, because he won't even defend himself. The guy is a retard and did it to himself at this point for making himself look so scummy and then refusing to defend himself.

When he has players like you to call it a policy lynch instead of calling it scummy, it looks even worse. At that point, you never can tell if he is scum or not can you? He mine as well pretend he is scum all game because if we lynch him it is a policy lynch!

Btw, are we sure there is even a VIG in this game? I don't think there is unless someone turns murderer. Town only has investigators, but you would know that if you were town, wouldn't you?

VOTE: Drench

Read the rules. Everyone has a one-shot vig.

Murder
You kill another character, satisfying your lust for vengeance, for power, for the sheer thrill of it. You may only Murder a character if you Stalked them last night.

You cannot take this action for a second time in a game unless you are a Murderer.

You get Blood on you. You gain an Insanity. Your Murder will resolve even if you are Murdered.

The bolded section of that indicates that you can take this action once without becoming a murderer. In addition, only Investigators can do this, so if anything, your last quip means nothing.

Also, from what I've seen of him, this is standard behaviour from Mastin we're looking at here. He always self-votes, he always looks scummy, so I don't see why we have a wagon at L-4 IIRC for A NULL-TELL. Yes, if he acts scummy later, by all means, lynch him. But I think today's lynch can be utilized better than what we are doing now.

Lynch, vig-kill... one in the same as far as I'm concerned.

Vote: Drench

If you don't think he's lynch-worthy but do think he is vig-worthy, something isn't adding up. Either you want him dead or not.

Lynches and vigs are vastly different. The lynch is one of the town's only tools to catch scum, and can yield lots and lots of information. A vig, on the other hand, gives far less information, since you have no idea who performed the vig, why they did, etc.

There are many other options to a Mastin lynch that will give us more information. It's all about maximising our knowledge while minimizing the time it takes us to get said knowledge. A Mastin lynch will do neither. A Mastin vig will cut down on the noise, helping us to actually catch scum instead of pointing fingers and going 'OMGSELFVOTEAGAINHEMUSTBESCUMLYNCHLYNCH'. A Mastin vig will, in short, maximize our gains and minimize our time in which we get them.

[arelian]

Exalt, I have a couple of questions for you.

What did you mean by this:

There is too much speculation in terms of murders and how a player can or cannot win as one, and not enough speculation as to who are cult and what we are going to do about it.

Enough with the murderer talk, because if you become a murderer you become anti-everything which is not what we should be focused on doing.

Seems to me like you're trying to put finding murderers at a lower priority than finding cult, when both should be important. Murderers are also an anti-town faction. We can't win when there are murderers. Seems like you're trying to push speculation away from murderers because you are one.

Also, this quote by you:

Btw, are we sure there is even a VIG in this game? I don't think there is unless someone turns murderer. Town only has investigators, but you would know that if you were town, wouldn't you?

This logic is kinda flawed. Why would a cultist know if there was a vig? Besides, it's written in the rules that anyone could become a murderer if they wanted to. The set up is completely open. I think you're reaching here for a reason to vote for someone.

Vote: Exalt

[dramonic]

But the key bit is, if you warded someone, we need to know who. We then know that person is not in danger of dying tonight, so they do not need to be doctored.

Warded dramonic.

You rate my setups, you have a RO avi and you ward me

<3

[Magua]

There are many other options to a Mastin lynch that will give us more information. It's all about maximising our knowledge while minimizing the time it takes us to get said knowledge. A Mastin lynch will do neither. A Mastin vig will cut down on the noise, helping us to actually catch scum instead of pointing fingers and going 'OMGSELFVOTEAGAINHEMUSTBESCUMLYNCHLYNCH'. A Mastin vig will, in short, maximize our gains and minimize our time in which we get them.

This is the first argument for not lynching Mastin I've seen that makes sense, actually. I'm not going to unvote Mastin yet, because I don't think that anyone so far has acted scummier than he has, but I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed.

[Kise]

It wasn't homo, dramo. Trust me.

[dramonic]

I just meant I appreciate it XD

[Exalt]

Exalt, I have a couple of questions for you.

What did you mean by this:

There is too much speculation in terms of murders and how a player can or cannot win as one, and not enough speculation as to who are cult and what we are going to do about it.

Enough with the murderer talk, because if you become a murderer you become anti-everything which is not what we should be focused on doing.

Seems to me like you're trying to put finding murderers at a lower priority than finding cult, when both should be important. Murderers are also an anti-town faction. We can't win when there are murderers. Seems like you're trying to push speculation away from murderers because you are one.

Also, this quote by you:

Btw, are we sure there is even a VIG in this game? I don't think there is unless someone turns murderer. Town only has investigators, but you would know that if you were town, wouldn't you?

This logic is kinda flawed. Why would a cultist know if there was a vig? Besides, it's written in the rules that anyone could become a murderer if they wanted to. The set up is completely open. I think you're reaching here for a reason to vote for someone.

Vote: Exalt

\

You do realize it is impossible for me to be a murder right now, right? No one was killed, so there is no way to gain the insanity, and without the insanity there is no murderer. Good try though.

[dramonic]

Stalk -> gain an insanity -> choose Psychopath -> Become murderer is a possible N0 chain of actions.

[Exalt]

Stalk -> gain an insanity -> choose Psychopath -> Become murderer is a possible N0 chain of actions.

Ok, I stand corrected. I didn't realize stalk even gave an insanity. I guess arelian's case stands then.

[Exalt]

Exalt, I have a couple of questions for you.

What did you mean by this:

There is too much speculation in terms of murders and how a player can or cannot win as one, and not enough speculation as to who are cult and what we are going to do about it.

Enough with the murderer talk, because if you become a murderer you become anti-everything which is not what we should be focused on doing.

Seems to me like you're trying to put finding murderers at a lower priority than finding cult, when both should be important. Murderers are also an anti-town faction. We can't win when there are murderers. Seems like you're trying to push speculation away from murderers because you are one.

Since I stand corrected on the stalk = insanity issue, I have to address this now.

They were discussing how they could possibly win by having town sacrifice themselves to become murders and help the town. I saw THAT talk as an examination on their parts as how to win as a murderer, and not how to win as town. Becoming a murderer turns a player into anti-everyone but themselves, so this isn't a win condition. It actually could be viewed as cheating if a bunch of townies tried to end game by switching to murderers to kill the remaining cult. It just wouldn't be a good win condition, and that is what I stated.

I don't like the speculation on murderers because at this point the game is about taking out the cult first and foremost. Murderers can only win by getting the most kills as a murderer and also taking out the OTHER murderers. They have to be the ONLY murderer left standing to win as far as I know. With that mindset, I find it pretty scummy that you are so FOR the talk of murderers and how to become one/use it as a win condition. That is what that discussion was about. I find it even scummier for you to defend that type of talk at this point in the game.

The murderers have to focus on the other murderers to win, whereas the town has to focus on cult to win, and also murderers to a lesser extent. Get the point here? Talking about murderers instead of cult just distracts from the purpose of taking out the cult, which you seem to be wanting. Maybe you are showing you are cult here? Shall I vote you for that?

Also, this quote by you:

Btw, are we sure there is even a VIG in this game? I don't think there is unless someone turns murderer. Town only has investigators, but you would know that if you were town, wouldn't you?

This logic is kinda flawed. Why would a cultist know if there was a vig? Besides, it's written in the rules that anyone could become a murderer if they wanted to. The set up is completely open. I think you're reaching here for a reason to vote for someone.

Vote: Exalt

What about this quote is so scummy to you? Please explain further.

As far as reaching is concerned, it seems you are reaching quite a bit yourself. Care to explain why you are so hypocritical? Maybe you are cult and would rather talk about murderers instead of cult, hmmm?

[chenhsi]

The murderers have to focus on the other murderers to win, whereas the town has to focus on cult to win, and also murderers to a lesser extent. Get the point here? Talking about murderers instead of cult just distracts from the purpose of taking out the cult, which you seem to be wanting. Maybe you are showing you are cult here? Shall I vote you for that?

No. Town has to focus on both cult and murderers. As long as cult is alive, town cannot win. As long as murderers are alive, town cannot win. Cult is not more important to get rid of than murderers.

I actually think that focusing on murderers might be better. Murderers can all kill every night, so if there are a lot of murderers, people will die faster (which might be a good thing, but I don't particularly like it). Cultists also want to kill off the murderers, because otherwise they will also die faster, and they cannot win.

Also, this quote by you:

Btw, are we sure there is even a VIG in this game? I don't think there is unless someone turns murderer.

Town only has investigators, but you would know that if you were town, wouldn't you?

This logic is kinda flawed. Why would a cultist know if there was a vig? Besides, it's written in the rules that anyone could become a murderer if they wanted to.

The set up is completely open.

I think you're reaching here for a reason to vote for someone.

What about this quote is so scummy to you? Please explain further.

Your logic was flawed.

[sideney]

I'm back, i need to re-read, i will post tomorrow

[zwetschenwasser]

I'd say that they are confirmed town if they come forward with it. Revealing yourself as a stalker when you are a murder is foolish, because you will die at the hands of one of the factions in this game.

Too much WIFOM for my taste. And nothing is stopping a cultist from saying the same and then explaining the circumstances in their qt.

[semioldguy]

Murderers can all kill every night, so if there are a lot of murderers, people will die faster (which might be a good thing, but I don't particularly like it). Cultists also want to kill off the murderers, because otherwise they will also die faster, and they cannot win.

Murderers can only kill every other night. The cult kills every night. Though killing a murderer helps reduce the number of night kills much more quickly.

In addition to Murderers having a very difficult win condition, they are going to be racking up insanities like crazy and shouldn't be too hard to pin down as their insanity increases wildly beyond anyone else's.

[chenhsi]

Murderers can all kill every night, so if there are a lot of murderers, people will die faster (which might be a good thing, but I don't particularly like it). Cultists also want to kill off the murderers, because otherwise they will also die faster, and they cannot win.

Murderers can only kill every other night.

Yes, that's what I meant.