Mini 833 - Empire at War(The game is over?)

[Kreriov]

Really. Why? Because I am poking fun at Macavity or for some other reason? Just saying it bugs you is not enough.

[Seraphim]

The accusations came thick and fast kinda like me when I've had too many bowls of Ultra-Grain Cereal(when normal grain isn't enough). Um, that's not going on the record, is it? Wait what?!

Vote Count:

Starbuck(1)

- Kreriov

Sajin(1)

- MacavityLock

dothefandango(0)

-

Kdub(1)

- BloodCovenent

Santos(1)

- Kdub

Kreriov(0)

-

Jebus(1)

- Starbuck

zwetschenwasser(0)

-

BloodCovenent(1)

- xRECKONERx

MacavityLock(1)

- Sajin

xRECKONERx(0)

-

RestFermata(0)

-

Not Voting(5)

- dothefandango, Santos, Jebus, zwetschenwasser, RestFermata

7 to Lynch
Deadline: 31/8/09

[BloodCovenent]

Really. Why? Because I am poking fun at Macavity or for some other reason? Just saying it bugs you is not enough.

I just don't like the second sentence. And I was just writing down what was on my mind.

[Kreriov]

Well, no offense, but that is not enough. You need to give reasons. It just bugs you really is not enough. Its wishy-washy and an easy out. It is a formless accusation with no substance, the type of thing scum like to use or to seize on. Note I am not calling you scummy or even saying I think you are scum by saying it. If you really do have a problem with it, you need to express it. Hell, I will even help if you could give me an idea of what you didn't like about that sentence. (Other than the mathematical incorrectness of the idea.)

[xRECKONERx]

Well, that would be fine except since Sajin was scum in your last game, does that not make it much more likely he is not in this one?

Unvote, Vote: Kreriov

This is not a random vote. This sentence just reeks of scummy: you're using obviously faulty logic, first off, and you're posing it in the form of a question so it seems much less obvious. I don't like this.

[zwetschenwasser]

Vote: BloodCovenant

Too much blood to be a simple stormtrooper.

[Kreriov]

@Reckoner - Huh? Not a random vote. Well, then you are DEFINITELY manufacturing a reason for a vote. There is absolutely nothing scummy in that sentence nor in anything else I have said. Either you have not bothered to read the context leading up to it or you are just trying to stir the pot, hopefully to spur discussion. Are you doing this to start real discussion? If not, it is a scum move and should be seen in that light. Whether you are trying to start discussion or not, I still have to point out you fail to say WHAT logic if faulty, much less why. Using pejorative terms like 'obviously faulty' without support is pure scum. As for putting something in the form of a question, THAT is very townish. Trying to get someone to talk by asking them a question about THEIR action is definitely town! So, as a follow up, why are you trying to misrepresent townish actions as otherwise?

For the record, that is two questions for Reckoner. By my count he has also now commited three scummy actions. (1) He fails to support his position, (2) he tries to make a townish move seem bad, and (3) his entire post is a declarative statement after no analysis whatsoever. Its early though and everyone makes mistakes, so do not jump all over him for it just yet. Let him answer.

[Sajin]

How is kreriov asking a question of someone scummy, reckoner?

Also, I have played with krer 3 times (this makes 4) and have been scum twice. He had me pegged as scum both times.

[MacavityLock]

Well, that would be fine except since Sajin was scum in your last game, does that not make it much more likely he is not in this one?

That's not how probability works. I can't tell if this was a joke or not.

Really. Why? Because I am poking fun at Macavity or for some other reason? Just saying it bugs you is not enough.

This suggests that it was a joke.

As for putting something in the form of a question, THAT is very townish. Trying to get someone to talk by asking them a question about THEIR action is definitely town!

This suggests that it wasn't a joke.

So which is it?

Also, I have played with krer 3 times (this makes 4) and have been scum twice. He had me pegged as scum both times.

So?

[Kreriov]

@Mcavity - Neither or maybe both actually. It was an ironic question in direct reply to your stated reason for a random vote designed to get some discussion going. It also happens to be a bit funny given the number of games in which I have played with Sajin in which he has been scum, as it appears you have as well. I am perfectly well aware that how probability works, hence my reference to incorrect mathematics in post 28 and my speculation that this might be what 'bugged' you.

As for the asking a question part, you are failing in your logic and/or proper English comprehension. The statement that putting something in the form of a question is a general rebuttal to Reckoner claiming otherwise and not a specific support or explanation of anything being or not being a joke. The two statements are therefor unconnected. Why are you trying to connect them and why are you incorrectly trying imply I tried to suggest two different things?

[MacavityLock]

@Mcavity - Neither or maybe both actually. It was an ironic question in direct reply to your stated reason for a random vote designed to get some discussion going. It also happens to be a bit funny given the number of games in which I have played with Sajin in which he has been scum, as it appears you have as well. I am perfectly well aware that how probability works, hence my reference to incorrect mathematics in post 28 and my speculation that this might be what 'bugged' you.

Who are you talking to here? I never said that anything "bugged" me. That was BloodCovenant.

As for the asking a question part, you are failing in your logic and/or proper English comprehension. The statement that putting something in the form of a question is a general rebuttal to Reckoner claiming otherwise and not a specific support or explanation of anything being or not being a joke. The two statements are therefor unconnected. Why are you trying to connect them and why are you incorrectly trying imply I tried to suggest two different things?

Why wouldn't they be connected? Your rebuttal to Reckoner was that your move to ask me that question was townish. If it was a joke, it was likely null. If it was a legitimate question that you really wanted me to answer, it may have been townish. You don't get to have it both ways. What was your purpose in asking me that original question?

[Kreriov]

@MacavityLock - Sorry, it was Blood who was 'bugged'. Ok, you quoted my reply in which I clearly answer your questions already. Namely, I asked an ironic question that happened to include a bit of a joke to generate discussion. Was there some part of this that was not clear? Are you not reading my replies or are you deliberately 'misunderstanding' them for some reason?

Also, did you miss the part about where a general statement that asking questions is townie implies nothing about a specific question? You see, part of the problem is that Reckoner in no way demonstrated anything scummy about my question. THAT is the problem. So his general implication that me asking a question is scummy is rebutted by generally stating asking questions is almost always pro-town. Stating the general principle does not in any way indicate that a specific question was serious, a joke, or whatever even if a specific question generated the discussion, hence, no connection.

So, I have answered all your questions (again). Are you going to answer some of mine now, or keep trying to distract people?

[MacavityLock]

Also, did you miss the part about where a general statement that asking questions is townie implies nothing about a specific question? You see, part of the problem is that Reckoner in no way demonstrated anything scummy about my question. THAT is the problem.

Ah, okay, I think I see what you're getting at here. I had not previously seen your making the distinction between your question to me and questions in general.

So his general implication that me asking a question is scummy is rebutted by generally stating asking questions is almost always pro-town. Stating the general principle does not in any way indicate that a specific question was serious, a joke, or whatever even if a specific question generated the discussion, hence, no connection.

Follow-up question then: Is it possible for a point to become more scummy by being phrased as a question?

So, I have answered all your questions (again). Are you going to answer some of mine now, or keep trying to distract people?

What questions have you asked of me other than the joke one?

[xRECKONERx]

Checking in on my iPod.

Re: Kre's statement I meant that using the logic of someone being scum in another game affecting their chances of being scum in this one is horrible logic. I thought that was obvious. I don't necessarily think it's a scumslip but it's a mighty dangerous train of thought to be following.

[Sajin]

I think Mcavitylock said that. Not Krer.

[zwetschenwasser]

This is confusing.

[Starbuck]

/sigh at the inactivity that is occurring already

No posts yet from the following:

dothefandango
Santos
Jebus
RestFermata

[RestFermata]

Hey, sorry! I should have said V/LA in my games but I didn't know it was going to be so much trouble to move into the apartment this year. I'm here, though, and ready to get started.

I understand the logic behind Reckoner's accusation, but I don't believe that Kreriov was being serious. I don't really like the "asking questions is townie" statement. Not all questions are townie. Imagine this early in a game, before any hint of a claim is suggested.

X: Y, are you the cop?
Y: I refuse to respond, and that is a scummy question.
X: Asking questions is townie.

I know this is kind of a strawman. I acknowledge that, and I am not suggesting that the situation is not comparable in the least, but my point is that whether or not a question is pro-town depends on the question. Taking a statement that might be construed scummy and then placing it in the form of a question doesn't make it any "townier." It does, in fact, take a bit of that air of certainty away from the poster, making him/her less responsible for the ideas presented in the question. In that way questions can be scummy.

Krer, your question, if you were serious about it, was scummy. I think you were joking, so I'm not going to vote you for that reason, but I do believe that your blanket statement that asking questions is townie is a tad scummy. It's kind of squirmy, if you will, trying to find weird ways to justify your past behavior. It's weak sauce, but for now, I believe you're the best place for my vote.

Zwet, this game only has two pages so far. Even if the posts are somewhat confusing, it can't be that hard to come to some sort of understanding or formulate an opinion based on what has happened so far. And if you can't, you can say that too.

Sorry again for being inactive so far. Again, I should be back on track now.

Vote: Kreriov

[Kdub]

@Mcavity - Neither or maybe both actually. It was an ironic question in direct reply to your stated reason for a random vote designed to get some discussion going. It also happens to be a bit funny given the number of games in which I have played with Sajin in which he has been scum, as it appears you have as well. I am perfectly well aware that how probability works, hence my reference to incorrect mathematics in post 28 and my speculation that this might be what 'bugged' you.

In general, jokes and sarcasm don't really translate well over the internet, so it's pretty likely that someone was bound to take your question the wrong way. I don't think the question was necessarily scummy, but I think you should have realized it would possibly draw negative attention to yourself. You say you wanted to get some discussion going, but you seemed to react somewhat strongly to BC and Reckoner's comments, so I'm not sure this was the type of discussion you were envisioning.

[Kreriov]

It is not really all that bad if some people take my question the wrong way. It was intended to generate discussion and it has succeeded. What I do care about is the reactions it received. When people use weak excuses to vote, that is a sign of scum. Blood basically said it bugged him but with no reasoning as to why. He did not vote at that time, however, so ok. I challenged him to support his statement. He didn't really know, but is talking, so really a null tell.

Then we get Reckoner. He calls the logic faulty, but fails to explain why and simply says asking a question is scummy then votes. Talk about a weak vote! His most recent post is even worse! OF COURSE the math in my question was wrong, UNLESS you take into account its context. It was in direct reply to MacavityLock voting Sajin because Sajin was scum in the last game. The POINT of the question is to illustrate that voting for someone because they were scum in the last game has no bearing on whether or not they are scum in this game. it doesn't matter if its a 'random' vote. And using an ironic question to point this out, have a bit of fun, and maybe get discussion going is PERFECTLY townie! But somehow me that is scummy? Really? On what planet? So rather than actually try to challenge me or even just talk, Reckoner goes on full offense and simply throws out that pejorative phrase - 'faulty logic' with no explanation, says I am scummy, and votes. No support for his action, no real thought for his action. Just an excuse to cast suspicion and place a vote. When challenged, he is so quick to defend himself, he does not really even try to look at the context to see that my logic and reasoning in context is not only pertinent, but valid. Pure scum or overzealous and careless townie, I am not sure yet is the problem.

But even better is RestFerma. No, not every question is townie. But most are. Now that he has talked about my question in particular, I will say it is very townie. (Read the above paragraph. Even if the humor was a bit of an inside joke, the question was a direct logical progression from the conversation.)

So basically, RestFerma has been V/LA, comes back and sees I am heavily involved in a discussion. He uses the wiki to pull out something called a straw man argument which he admits DOES NOT apply to this instance, but being so official looking and sounding probably seems to make his argument stronger, so he includes that red herring. He then proceeds to say that if my question had been a statement is would have been scummy, therefor the question is scummy even though he thinks it really was a joke, and votes. Sure sounds to me like he is voting just to vote for someone. He is deliberately taking my question out of context. He does not even quote me correctly. I DID NOT SAY asking questions is townie. I said IN GENERAL asking questions is townie, fully acknowledging that some questions are designed to make people look bad. By completely ignoring the fact that my question is direct logical progression from MacavityLock's vote and reason for that vote, he has shown he is simply scum interested in getting a townie lynched however he can.

Hey RestFermia, when did you stop beating your wife?

Anyway, my usual technique for finding scum appears to be successful. I now have two people who have placed votes on me simply because they could with no real support for their positions who failed to take into account post context. Towniee can make that mistake, so the first one (Reckoner) doing so might be a mistaken townie. Piling on top of another doing this is pure scum just being opportunistic.

Unvote

Vote: RestFermia

[BloodCovenent]

Really. Why? Because I am poking fun at Macavity or for some other reason? Just saying it bugs you is not enough.

I just don't like the second sentence. And I was just writing down what was on my mind.

To clarify, the reason why I did not like it, was because it was worded oddly. I had to read it several times to understand it.

[BloodCovenent]

But even better is RestFerma.

No, not every question is townie. But most are.

Now that he has talked about my question in particular, I will say it is very townie. (Read the above paragraph. Even if the humor was a bit of an inside joke, the question was a direct logical progression from the conversation.)

I don't like this. It feels as if you are setting scum up for an easy out. "oh he-he, i can't be scum, i asked loads of questions." Point in case, you question regarding so and so beating his wife. Yes, you used an example out of game, Just because you asked me that question, does not mean that I think you are town. It just striked me as odd that you would say questions are a town tell.

I guess what i'm trying to say is, questions cannot be a town tell. Yes, players that ask questions, poke and prod, and apply pressure tend to be town, but a good scum player can manipulate them as well.

[Kreriov]

Yeah, I could have shortened it a bit. Not sure if I wish you had said that in the first place. My fingers are tired from all the typing.

What do you think of my idea that RestFermata is using the whole bruhaha surrounding this to cast an opportunistic vote?

[BloodCovenent]

Yeah, I could have shortened it a bit. Not sure if I wish you had said that in the first place. My fingers are tired from all the typing.

What do you think of my idea that RestFermata is using the whole bruhaha surrounding this to cast an opportunistic vote?

I just skimmed his post the first time I read it, and it didn't make much sense at the time, so i'm gonna re-read the whole thread and get back to you shortly.

[BloodCovenent]

Well, that would be fine except since Sajin was scum in your last game, does that not make it much more likely he is not in this one?

Unvote, Vote: Kreriov

This is not a random vote. This sentence just reeks of scummy: you're using obviously faulty logic, first off, and you're posing it in the form of a question so it seems much less obvious. I don't like this.

wait... what? Basically all that Kre said was the likely hood of Sajin being scum, is still the same as if sajin were not in the last game.

FoS:Reck