Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[don_johnson]

1. If scum is so obvious, then it would be easy to point out IK's faults. The town would have probably lynched him by now if it was that obvious. Can you feel free to elaborate to clear the air about this?

in due time. i claimed town pr to avoid this pointless discussion. yet here we are. moving on.

2. Oh wow soft claiming town PR this early with the "time is an issue" is really just awful and a bad excuse. If this is true then you are outing yourself for no reason, and the best response is /replace out if your real life is getting out of hand to play this game. Real life comes first, then mafia. If the time restraints are part of your role then it only makes me think of this: "time bomb".

not replacing. playing. drawing out scum. what's wrong with a pr claim? it narrows down the lynch pool for day one, should avoid uinecessary discussion regarding dj's playstyle, and creates a wifomic situation for scum's nk choices on night one. please explain how the pr claim is bad for town.

3. This is after RVS. IK developed much stronger tells after the RVS around page 7. To base your vote on the RVS this late in the day is just plain dumb when you have a slew of information to look at and develop that strong case .

^^ ad hom. i haven't read to page seven. would you prefer i not vote as i read? voting keeps me active and helps to elicit discussion and work towards a lynch. if you have a "strong case" then why are you asking me for it? why not present it yourself? why not accept the help that my vote offers in regards to lynching someone you seem to be implying that you agree is scummy?

Nothing good came from that, I hope you know. Disclosing which players have power roles helps scum in that they gain a better idea of which players are more worthwhile to target. If anyone is going to be hit at Night, we want it to be a Vanilla Townie. It gives the power roles more life and gives the Town, in general, an edge against scum.

okay. at this point, would you say i am a worthwhile target for nk? by virtue of my playstyle i tend to avoid being killed at night. check my meta if you need to. by claiming the role but not divulging what it is makes it even less likely that i will be killed at night which makes it more likely that i will make a successful night action. kind of a trade off. and if scum nk's me and succeeds, well then, you will know exactly who and what i am. end result, no harm done.

Don, don't you think it would have been a smart idea to read through the whole thread before making an idiotic post like that?

^^ funny coming from someone named the "idiotking". short answer: no. it would have been idiotic if i had pretended to read the thread, but what i did was actually make a rather clear statement of my suspicions based on the rvs. did i clarify why? no. but i certainly clarified my suspicions and provided the proper timeline. omgusing isn't going to help your defense if you are town so i suggest you take a different track.

Don, why the hell did you claim power unprovoked like that?

why not? see above for my explanation. what is wrong with the claim? as much as i have not substantiated my vote on ik with a mountain of quotes and evidence, only one player has tried to lay ouit exactly why my claim was bad, and i have responded accordingly.

you are making a vote for scum... on page 17 after going only on the RVS and what you have read so far. you can see why everyone is questioning you and pointing fingers at you right?

questioning? yes. pointing fingers? no. besides the "too scummy to be scum defense", the wifom, unprovoked claim, and unsubstantiated vote, there has been no focus on my slot all day. no reason to start now. did idiotking flip town? without his flip none of you can accurately judge my actions. and yet some of you are trying. i am amused.

I have no problem with someone making a vote based on the RVS. The game would go nowhere if people didn't. Making a vote based on the RVS as we're approaching a deadline? That could be a problem.

if i leave my slot "not voting", it would be abigger problem, no?

@don
Before I give any opinions on the situation, there are two things I'm interested in knowing:
1) Were you aware of the coming deadline?
2) How bad are your current time constraints?

1) no. but looking back, we have five days. is it an issue? have we some sort of consensus on a deadline lynch?
2) not bad, but my unexpected v/la set me back and i am now starting school while juggling work and family. seat time at the cpu is harder to come by. if you've read me before you should be able to notice the difference. i am generally an active player. recently(and not just in this game) i have had to compromise my usual methods in a number of ways. i'm doing a lot less reading and rereading and looking more at behavioral trends, iso reads, rvs tendencies, and voting patterns. not necessarily ion that order.

[don_johnson]

ebwop:

ik: if rvs is useless, then why does it exist?(please don't answer, its rhetorical. rvs is a useful tool. i realize my statement directed at you might read offensive, but the comment on your name was made in jest.)

[DeathRowKitty]

if i leave my slot "not voting", it would be abigger problem, no?

As we approach the deadline, obviously we want someone with enough votes to be lynched, but
1) the deadline isn't here yet
2) we're not exactly at a point where we need to be actively seeking out more votes for IK

The fact that you didn't know about the deadline makes your vote less suspicious in my mind. Putting another vote on the player with the most votes as the deadline approaches based solely on the RVS is definitely very suspicious. Reading the RVS and giving your opinions on who you find scummy makes sense, although a vote is a very odd way of doing so.

Having a lynch ready for deadline is definitely good for the town, but looking for the first person to appear scummy in the game and putting a vote on that person near deadline isn't (unless we're desperate for votes).

Of course, I realize this isn't the current situation, but the quote seems to be hinting that you have a different opinion, which may be your meta or may show that you're just trying to get someone lynched.

[DeathRowKitty]

I didn't include this in my last post, but I don't plan on voting a claimed PR Day 1, 5 RL days before the deadline. If don really does have a town PR, claiming more specifically hurts the town. Only keep a vote on don if you either don't believe his claim or if you're completely dissatisfied with his explanation.

Also,

Mod, I'm currently voting for Jason, not IK

.

*This has been corrected and informed... Thanks.

[DTMaster]

1. Yes useless to explain how IK is scum. /sarcasm.

2. Claiming PR doesn't make you all mighty and all knowing good sir. Nor does it clear you. A PR claim only has merit when it cannot be counter claimed and can only be supported through cop investigations, and/or watcher/tracker night actions.

You aren't "automatically" cleared just because of this, nor does this narrow down the pool of potential lynches. Lying, vague scum is just as plausible as vague (found in the subtext of such a claim: asking for a night protect) PR.

3. You didn't read my posts obviously (and as you stated), I read IK as neutral frustrated townie, not scummy. His actions fit his town meta call. Before your vote I felt Zach, Jason and Toro deserve much more scrutiny then what IK presented. Right now I question your motives right here and now. To me it smells of scum gambit, not pro-town scum hunting.

Also voting based on just RVS information is silly, you have almost year of experience on mafia scum and should know what the response would be if you just did that.

There is a difference between being active and playing dumb. Don, and so far you haven't done the former with that post.

This is your case, you defend it. I don't have the gruff against IK. Right now using RVS is the weakest argument possible against IK.

4. BTW your reasoning with shrine makes little sense. There are no reasons why scum wouldn't target a softclaimed PR if that person was actually town. It's more likely that the kill will fail to resolve then scum deciding to target another pro-town player.

5. Nice rhetorical question. Post when you ask someone and tell them to not answer in the same post. Abrasive to judge a person's reactions, but if someone ignores your comments and its addressed to them it makes them look like they are avoiding discussion. GJ on the trap.

My vote stays claim or not. I want to hear you reasoning and why before I move it. Also at no circumstance should you claim right now if you are a real PR. My number 2 contradicts this in a way, but I am more interested in your POV on the case rather then your claim.

[Idiotking]

Don, I'm actually quite amazed that you've got the gall to say you

shouldn't

have read through the thread before making a post. I've read through some of your past games, so I thought you were pretty good, but this? Even hiphop isn't as bad as this.

[DTMaster]

Actually IK describe his meta for me. Depending on this play I can see both good and bad sides. The good being very rewarding if he plays with his gut and likes generating reactions from the town.

[Idiotking]

Usually I only saw him in early game, never got past 7 pages or so because the game was over by then. I saw him being combative and not-a-little-bit pushy, but he seemed to know what he was doing well enough.

In other words, acting exactly as he is now, though at this point in the game it's wildly inappropriate considering the fact that RVS is VERY MUCH over and has been for a very long time.

[don_johnson]

you do realize that you are both trying to push a lynch on a claimed town pr on day 1?

both dtm and ik seem to be misrepping me just a bit here.

please point out where i said i "shouldn't" have read. i am missing something there.

dtm: the rhetorical question was there to prove a point. if you would like to engage in a theoretical discussion about the value of the rvs then by all means pick a side and begin to argue, but its a waste of time. i think the rvs can be a useful tool in many ways. if you disagree then so be it. i didn't want ik's answer because it would begin the circle of ridiculous theory discussion we don't need right now.

saying i am "bad" is ad hom. it is fail logic and you should all know that.

Claiming PR doesn't make you all mighty and all knowing good sir. Nor does it clear you. A PR claim only has merit when it cannot be counter claimed and can only be supported through cop investigations, and/or watcher/tracker night actions.

^ misrep. i never said i was all knowing or all mighty. if a pr claim has merit when it can be supported through investigations, etc. why are you voting for me? its day 1. if i am scum i know have to live a lie. if i am town, then there should be ways to corroborate my claim, as well as the distinct possibility that i may be nk'd. lynching day 1 is about the least sensible solution to this issue. i have not asked to be above scrutiny. i am just pointing out that it is rather silly to bother with it now when it can be addressed in so many more logical ways at a later time.

Right now I question your motives right here and now. To me it smells of scum gambit, not pro-town scum hunting.

please explain this "scum" gambit.
now you imply i am setting some sort of trap with a rhetorical question when said question is clearly labeled "rhetorical" and no follow up has been made. i am not stupid and i really don't know why you are trying to imply that i am. oh wait, yes i do:

unvote, vote dtmaster

you fit a scum profile to a T. you are using bad logic to try and cast suspicion on a claimed town pr, contradicting your own reasoning regarding how to deal with it, misrepping me while defending ik, and all of this with a little bit of ad hom.

[Idiotking]

I said:

"Don, don't you think it would have been a smart idea to read through the whole thread before making an idiotic post like that?"

Your reply was no.

[DTMaster]

@Don

1. I'm willing to risk the ramifications on arguing against a Town PR, that is my call.

2. Explain by what you mean: "you shouldn't read". As far as I know I'm asking you

to read the arguments past page 7

.

3. You claimed PR. This is gutsy and can heavily benefit the town. But

you did not present your case on IK. This is the main reason why I'm keeping my vote on you.

The other side to claiming an unnamed PR is to make people wary of voting for you. I can WIFOM debate this but I rather not. This is one scum gambit reasoning. Also scum-you would also control the NK results which can pay off in the large run.

I'm wary of the reasoning until you present the case. You asked me why I haven't attacked IK, its because his meta shows his subpar actions as town tells. I'm asking you to support you case again. Please do, either on me or IK.

4. Ideally I agree I should wait for day 2 before continuing this case since the night results would be much more telling. I'm not pushing for a lynch, nor a claim. If you want to know I'm pressuring you to explain your case in more detail. Again did you read my last statement? I'll be more willing to move only after you answer me.

No threat = no response = I'm waiting till day 2 to get your answer. I hate waiting for answers, I'll meta this if you want.

5. Expand you case against me using my past posts. My recent posts are very scummy (yes I'm attacking a claimed unknown PR), but what are your thoughts on my previous actions? How do they make me scummy?

[don_johnson]

you are twisting words out of context. my statement was a response to your question. you ignored the rest of my response and are focusing on a particular phrase which does not accurately represent the gist of our exchange.

my vote on dtm is rather symbolic. i think both of these players are scum.

[DTMaster]

Eww simupost. I'm going to assume you meant IK right?

[don_johnson]

436 is at ik.

dtm: you are shit out of luck. i am not explaining anything to you. we are nearing deadline. both you and ik are acceptable lynches imo.

[DTMaster]

Don there is 4 days till deadline. If you cant post something substantial in 4 whole days V/LA out of here or go replace out. I don't have tolerance for this kind of action after my first game went down in flames when 2 townies were anti-town enough to stop answering all questions asked. Needless to say the town lost.

[hiphop]

@don They are not trying to say the rvs isn't important, they are saying that you should not use the rvs as your only source of information. You seem to me as if you think the rvs is the most important part of the game. After I have read the entire game, I don't think that idk in the rvs is suspicious. If you read it you wouldn't think so either. You argue that the RVS is black and white. Well it isn't. Dtm did not say the rvs is unimportant, he said your vote is stupid.

You vote for dtm, because he argues that the rvs is not as important as you say it is, you might as well as vote for everybody who has posted after your random vote for idk. We all have done the same thing in one way or another.

The only good thing from your vote is you have generated activity.

@Drk I can claim as a PR too, does that mean I am one.

[DTMaster]

Anyone who's interested the meta link is here Go to day 3ish. There is the reason why I have no tolerance for this kind of play, it's plain anti-town to not answer questions addressed to you.

Also Don, you aren't going to expand your case against me? I'm obviously taunting you here. Please do. It will only benefit your cause on why you are right and I'm scum here.

* Fixed /url tag

[DTMaster]

Whoops fail tags >>

Mod can you fix the [ / b ] into a [ / url]?

[don_johnson]

sorry to hear that. i am not replacing out. not sure what you expect to me other than "after reading the rvs it seemed to me as though ik is scum". there's no "deep" analysis involved. get over it. if you are town then make yourself a bit more useful. when i replaced in and failed to get caught up you didn't care at all about me. now you seem to "need" my participation. guess what? i am participating. i have laid out my suspicions and if i have the chance to read more and post more i will, until then you need to move on or dig in. i suggest moving on because i am not going to respond to strong arm tactics and insults.

[don_johnson]

@don They are not trying to say the rvs isn't important, they are saying that you should not use the rvs as your only source of information. You seem to me as if you think the rvs is the most important part of the game. After I have read the entire game, I don't think that idk in the rvs is suspicious. If you read it you wouldn't think so either. You argue that the RVS is black and white. Well it isn't. .

sorry but no. i haven't read the game and i never said the rvs is the most important part. i also didn't argue that rvs is black or white. i simply implied that it is foolish to assume one can't use it as a scumhunting tool.

chain of events:

dj read rvs.

dj became suspicious of ik.

dj voted ik.

continuing to ask me questions regarding these minimal actions is only going to prevent me from reading more of this thread. if someone has a lynch to propose, by all means, don't let me stop you. there is only so much i can continue to offer on this subject. my claim was meant to try and avoid much of this confusion. ik may very well be scum so harping on my vote is just a wee bit premature. not sure why it is such a big deal.

[DTMaster]

Yes because looking for other input is that bad. /sarcasm

I recommend you read my posts before you accuse me of "needing your participation". Explain to me how in this entire game I was useless? Hm? You imply this in your recent post.

I'm not budging, that is giving you the benefit of the doubt with your recent actions just cause you claim to be a PR. Blatantly ignoring my direct questions isn't scummy

but it's heavily anti-town and I'm willing to policy lynch anyone on sight for it.

[DeathRowKitty]

@Drk I can claim as a PR too, does that mean I am one.

Anyone could claim a PR and not be one, but without better evidence against dj having a PR, I see no reason to vote for him, especially close to a deadline on Day 1.


Personally, I think dj should be given a little credit for putting his suspicions on the line after only having read the RVS. Sure, a vote is an odd way to show suspicion about the RVS this late, but at least he did.

@DTM
You say you still have your vote on dj because he hasn't explained his case, but is that really worth a vote in this situation? The RVS was analyzed to death early in the game and can you honestly tell me you weren't at all suspicious of IK early on? I also wonder about policy-lynching someone who claimed town PR, but that's a different argument altogether.

FoS DTM

. Odd play to say the least.

when i replaced in and failed to get caught up you didn't care at all about me. now you seem to "need" my participation.

How do you know DTM didn't care about you while you were gone if you didn't read most of the game?

[DTMaster]

@DRK
Actually my vote is very sub-optimal play. Ideally as dj said: I should wait till day 2 because it would literally confirm if he is town or not. If he lives for what ever reason, then it is the best time to proceed. I acknowledge this.

My meta and policy on answering questions stemmed from that game which I am willing to follow though on sub-optimal play. Also you can analyze the reactions of the town for scum links. If scum sees a townie raising a case on a PR, then you can bet they want to fan the argument further.

[RedCoyote]

Does that make my position any clearer for you?

Yes, I think it's a good response.

---

He is V/LA until tomorrow but I'll pm him anyway reminding him to post ASAP.

My mistake, I keep missing all of these V/LA's!

*You're not the only one... There's been a waterfall of V/LAs in a very short time...

---

this is ludicrous!

What the hell??? this is ludicrous!

Wait, what?

This is after RVS. IK developed much stronger tells after the RVS around page 7. To base your vote on the RVS this late in the day is just plain dumb when you have a slew of information to look at and develop

that strong case .

Don, don't you think it would have been a smart idea to read through the whole thread before making an idiotic post like that?

you can see why everyone is questioning you and pointing fingers at you right?

I've read through some of your past games, so I thought you were pretty good, but this? Even hiphop isn't as bad as this.

You vote for dtm, because he argues that the rvs is not as important as you say it is, you might as well as vote for everybody who has posted after your random vote for idk. We all have done the same thing in one way or another.

Last one to call don out is a rotten egg! XD

Seriously though, was all of this necessary?

I'm not particularly enthused with don claiming, but, especially after the reactions he got, I'm much less inclined to believe it was a "scum gambit" as some have suggested it may be. My reasoning for this is because, if don was scum, it's unlikely that his scum partners would've been so willing to push back/bus him (DTM, Ik, jason, Toro, Zach), or leave him dangling in the breeze (ryan, Paradox, hiphop). I guess what I mean to say is, I'm much more willing to believe don's claim than I am to consider him trying something fishy.

---

saying i am "bad" is ad hom. it is fail logic and you should all know that.

This is true.

---

You vote for dtm, because he argues that the rvs is not as important as you say it is, you might as well as vote for everybody who has posted after your random vote for idk. We all have done the same thing in one way or another.

I don't care for this comment at all. This seems very divisive.

You jump to a lot of conclusions here, make a lot of assumptions, and paint with a very broad stroke (e.g. people who called out don = good, don = bad).

@Drk I can claim as a PR too, does that mean I am one.

The fact of the matter is, there are only two different players who would reasonably claim PR, scum or the actual PR itself. Take that as you will.

---

ik may very well be scum so harping on my vote is just a wee bit premature. not sure why it is such a big deal.

This is kind of the crux of the issue here. don cast a vote based on what he had seen thus far, and certain players blew everything out of proportion. I saw nothing in don's post (410) that implied that he wasn't in the process of reading the thread, and this was his initial suspicion. I am especially weary of the reactions from jason and Ik to the post. Neither of them were particularly concerned with asking him if his vote was confirmed on Ik, if he had plans to continue reading the game, or if he was planning to show more evidence of Ik as scum, they acted accusatory in unison to say "Wow, bad post!" to draw attention rather than investigate don on an individual basis.

Contrarily, the reactions of DRK and Shrine seemed more level-headed and inquisitive.

I also agree with don when he says that he wanted to get his vote on record. This is arguably one of the most important things a town needs D1. The town needs every player voting for someone, and it needs at least two viable candidates in danger of lynching up until around the deadline. I think a good question for everyone is, what two (or more if you like) candidates should be seriously considered as the lynch today? I prefer Ik, but I think jason is another great candidate.

---

Anyone could claim a PR and not be one, but without better evidence against dj having a PR, I see no reason to vote for him, especially close to a deadline on Day 1.

Should a 'nilla townie?

[RedCoyote]

I also agree with don when he says that he wanted to get his vote on record. This is arguably one of the most important things a town needs D1. The town needs every player voting for someone, and it needs at least two viable candidates in danger of lynching up until around the deadline. I think a good question for everyone is, what two (or more if you like) candidates should be seriously considered as the lynch today? I prefer Ik, but I think jason is another great candidate.

In addition to this, I think Toro is another great lynch because I believe Toro hasn't voted anyone since he unvoted jason much earlier in the thread.

Ik is still my favorite at the moment though.