Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[DeathRowKitty]

I re-read and I can still see it either way, though Paradox definitely makes some good points about IK.

With only 2 days left until deadline and some players we can only expect to post once or twice in that span, we really need to pick a lynch soon to make sure we get enough support for it. I'd support a lynch of IK, jason, toro, or hiphop (more or less in that order).

[don_johnson]

i would move to jason as well, but if he flips town then the quandary surrounding ik's alignment would still stand. i think the ik lynch is necessary to confirm our current suspicions. but i'm not going to swim against the current with deadline looming.

[Toro]

@RC

Response your 444:

No I disagree that a townie should just get their vote on the table when they are

not fully informed of the most recent activity

, even if this is day one. I don't mind point out suspicion based on the earlier comments, but I expect a person at least to read the most recent pages. An informed vote is much better then an uninformed vote.

@Shrine
I thought I said I voted for a pressure vote, I guess I wasn't clear enough. My 414 was before the claim, my willing to move it was shown after the claim.

@Myself
After some reflection, I hand the towel to don. Don will reply as he wills and depending on the night results I'll continue my case on him. That doesn't mean I'll let you go without answering me once you have caught up on the game.

IGMEOY: don

Personally I favour a Toro lynch above IK or Jason. If you read his posts in isolation you'll see very little analyzation and very little content to get a read on.

Jason posted a very good summary post in his ISO 16, but twisted his ankle with his DRK case.

IK gave us a good read with his quote wars, and his most recent vote on don (similar arguments that apply to me apply to IK as well). I was hesitant to vote for IK due to his town meta, but a lot of scum points were added on in the recent exchange.

Toro though played the newbie card (at least from my perspective he did) when he wasn't one. (See Toro's 393, 400 )

He doesn't actively scum hunt, the closest was in his iso 11, which is 17 days ago from that post (take into account he was V/LA though) But he does defend Hiphop in his ISO 29 and 31, abet the points are already known then.

He admits he was going with the flow in his ISO 18.

A lot of his statements make him look like he is actively lurking. A pro-town player should be going into the fray and getting information, not potentially starting fires here and there. (See ISO 23 and 24, 32)

I'm open again to the other two like RC is but Toro reads as: very lurkerish which is dangerous to keep up since it's anti-town (note not necessarily scummy, but very anti-town). His contributions to the town are very nil and I want to see more done if he really is town aligned.

Unvote

Vote: Toro

DTM, is this the case you're asking me to respond to?

[DTMaster]

@Toro

Um... of course not. The whole I prefer to lynch Toro doesn't mean anything, followed by the reasoning why I prefer a Toro lynch to an IK lynch. /sarcasm.

There is a limit for asking questions for clarification. Yes if you read my post, this is my case against you. This just reads as: stalling for time till the deadline.

[Toro]

Toro though played the newbie card (at least from my perspective he did) when he wasn't one. (See Toro's 393, 400 )

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

He doesn't actively scum hunt, the closest was in his iso 11, which is 17 days ago from that post (take into account he was V/LA though) But he does defend Hiphop in his ISO 29 and 31, abet the points are already known then.

Ain't gettin' much reads in this one.

He admits he was going with the flow in his ISO 18.

Yeah.

A lot of his statements make him look like he is actively lurking. A pro-town player should be going into the fray and getting information, not potentially starting fires here and there. (See ISO 23 and 24, 32)

Like I said, I'm not getting as much reads in this one.

I'm open again to the other two like RC is but Toro reads as: very lurkerish which is dangerous to keep up since it's anti-town (note not necessarily scummy, but very anti-town). His contributions to the town are very nil and I want to see more done if he really is town aligned.

Unvote

Vote: Toro

This is your case? You've just repeated what other people have said before.

And a Toro bandwagon is definitely not going to help this town get anywhere, trust me.

[Idiotking]

My gut tells me that a lot of Toro's actions could be mistaken newb townie play. I remember my first game on this site, I did a lot of the same things he's done. Hiphop, on the other hand, should know better by now, and by far has more opportunistic scumtells than anyone else here. I would prefer a hiphop lynch to a toro one, but if it comes down to it I'd support either.

[DTMaster]

Actually a lot of the repeat is what I said before. When I read your ISO, these issues are still here (plus your vote on IK with Zach at the same time) with your lack of posting.

Since you have a lack of reads on a lot of people, what are your current top picks for scum. To me your lack of reads stems from the fact that you aren't actively scum hunting.

Also blatant AtE with your recent statement: "the bandwagon isn't going to help the town get anywhere."

[DTMaster]

BTW IK

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

[don_johnson]

I would prefer a hiphop lynch to a toro one, but if it comes down to it I'd support either.

what about rc and jason? let me rephrase: are there any lynches you wouldn't support?

[Idiotking]

I would prefer a hiphop lynch to a toro one, but if it comes down to it I'd support either.

what about rc and jason? let me rephrase: are there any lynches you wouldn't support?

Well, I wouldn't support a Ryan, DTM, Shine, Zach, or Paradoxombie lynch, if that's what you mean.

[Idiotking]

BTW IK

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

I played several games on another site before I joined this one. Things are completely different here than pretty much anywhere else. You could be a pro on another site and a newb on here. Which is why I'm willing to give Toro a little slack. The reason I don't want to give Hiphop any is because he's

been

on this site and is still acting this way.

[don_johnson]

I would prefer a hiphop lynch to a toro one, but if it comes down to it I'd support either.

what about rc and jason? let me rephrase: are there any lynches you wouldn't support?

Well, I wouldn't support a Ryan, DTM, Shine, Zach, or Paradoxombie lynch, if that's what you mean.

yes, that's what i mean. thanks. i read the initial statement as oppurtunistic(anyone but me) behavior, but you are clarifying that this is not so.

i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?

[Paradoxombie]

BTW IK

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

I played several games on another site before I joined this one. Things are completely different here than pretty much anywhere else. You could be a pro on another site and a newb on here. Which is why I'm willing to give Toro a little slack. The reason I don't want to give Hiphop any is because he's

been

on this site and is still acting this way.

It was my impression that this was Hiphops first game on this site as well. He only mentioned three games on another site to my memory. Hiphop, care to clarify? Toro, how many games have you played bfore?

I agree that Hiphop has been opportunistic at times but his unvote of you at L-1 doesn't fit. I think Toro is far more suspicious one because of both his jumps onto hip hop and you came at very opportune moments, and his unvote of hiphop was when he came under pressure. I mean just looking at his vote on you, how can that not be called opportune? Also he claims that he normally notices more but now all he can see are popular wagons? I'll agree that Toro's play looks like a newer player, but not particularly new town.

IK, do you think if Toro continued to play this way all game you wouldn't suspect him?

[Paradoxombie]

yes, that's what i mean. thanks. i read the initial statement as oppurtunistic(anyone but me) behavior, but you are clarifying that this is not so.

i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?

So have you read the game yet or are you trying to get a lynch that will make it easier for you?

[don_johnson]

not sure what the second part there means, but no. i have not read the entire game, nor do i plan to. if i get the chance, i will, but at this point i think I have plenty to go on and it is time consuming enough to stay current.

please explain further what you mean by getting a lynch that makes it easier for me. is the implication that i am scum looking for an easy lynch? or is the implication that i am scum looking for the lynch that will make the game easier for me? or is the implication that i am town and looking for the quickest lynch so that i can read up during night phase? or is it something else?

[Toro]

BTW IK

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

I played several games on another site before I joined this one. Things are completely different here than pretty much anywhere else. You could be a pro on another site and a newb on here. Which is why I'm willing to give Toro a little slack. The reason I don't want to give Hiphop any is because he's

been

on this site and is still acting this way.

It was my impression that this was Hiphops first game on this site as well. He only mentioned three games on another site to my memory. Hiphop, care to clarify? Toro, how many games have you played bfore?

I agree that Hiphop has been opportunistic at times but his unvote of you at L-1 doesn't fit. I think Toro is far more suspicious one because of both his jumps onto hip hop and you came at very opportune moments, and his unvote of hiphop was when he came under pressure. I mean just looking at his vote on you, how can that not be called opportune? Also he claims that he normally notices more but now all he can see are popular wagons? I'll agree that Toro's play looks like a newer player, but not particularly new town.

IK, do you think if Toro continued to play this way all game you wouldn't suspect him?

On mafiascum this is my 2nd game. Not used to the style you all play here as typically on the other games I played on another site it's more fast-paced and we're mostly cracking jokes at eachother, we're not constantly buried in scumhunting mode.

[hiphop]

And a Toro bandwagon is definitely not going to help this town get anywhere, trust me.

Why should we trust you? What have you done that actually helps the town?

@Paradoxombie You got it right, no need to clarify. This is my first game on this site.

i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?

dj- How can you think that lynching someone who most likely is town a good day? In fact how can you even keep your vote on someone who you think is most likely town? There are plenty of more options than to lynch someone whom you think is more likely scum. You sound as if you are pushing for his lynch purely for information. As I said in post 307, pushing for a lynch of someone purely for information is scummy.

Fos: don_Johnson

[Toro]

And a Toro bandwagon is definitely not going to help this town get anywhere, trust me.

Why should we trust you? What have you done that actually helps the town?

@Paradoxombie You got it right, no need to clarify. This is my first game on this site.

i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?

dj- How can you think that lynching someone who most likely is town a good day? In fact how can you even keep your vote on someone who you think is most likely town? There are plenty of more options than to lynch someone whom you think is more likely scum. You sound as if you are pushing for his lynch purely for information. As I said in post 307, pushing for a lynch of someone purely for information is scummy.

Fos: don_Johnson

I understand I haven't helped the town much so far, but I can potentially become a game-changing force in this game.

[Idiotking]

I agree that Hiphop has been opportunistic at times but his unvote of you at L-1 doesn't fit.

In a sense it does. The bandwagon's faltering, and now it would look rather unfashionable for him, especially when I flipped town. It's opportunism in the other direction. Basically the same thing I think about RC's unvote, but I'd rather not draw any more conclusions about his until he explains.

IK, do you think if Toro continued to play this way all game you wouldn't suspect him?

I suspect him

now

. I'm just prepared to give him the slightest benefit of the doubt given his relative inexperience on this site.

But I'm a little annoyed that this is actually his second game on this site and he hasn't improved.

As for hiphop, I thought it was three games on this site? Yeah, hiphop, could you clarify? My apologies if I missed it.

And is it just me or did Toro breadcrumb a power role in his most recent post?

[don_johnson]

And is it just me or did Toro breadcrumb a power role in his most recent post?

^^ this is so anti-town that it isn't even funny. when someone "breadcrumbs" a role you certainly shouldn't be calling attention to it. power roles should choose when they wish to be outed and pointing to someone and saying "i think he's saying he has a powerrole" is just plain stupid 99% of the time.

just because i think someone is town doesn't mean its odd for me to want them lynched. someone needs to be lynched and if we do it for information its better on day 1 than in lylo. so yeah, ik should be lynched because most of our suspicions of others are based around their actions regarding his bandwagon. how can we qualify those suspicions without having 100% proof of his alignment. he claimed vanilla, we should follow through. i'm not going to tunnel this, but we need his flip. if he flips scum and i am wrong then its a good thing and i am not so egotistical as to think i am always right. he didn't get so many votes on him by accident.

[DTMaster]

@IK
Don beat me to this. Don't point out those kinds of things. But in your defense Toro did a poor job on the breadcrumb, it reads as a soft-claim. That's all I have to say on the matter.

@Don
I'd agree more if it was actually deadline day and we didn't have other good suspects. Right now I'm thinking of dropping my Toro case and picking it up day 2 with the recent events. Jason's opportune vote is points us where a good ISO read is needed, same with Zach.

I'd prefer we keep the gut townie alive and look at the others while we still have a good couple of days.

But day 2 is when the game action picks up with the first confirmations of alignments. I can empathize with your want to analyze the information.

[Idiotking]

I disagree. There wasn't much reason to breadcrumb at that point, especially when it's a blatant attempt to look imperative to the town's survival. It's strange.

[DeathRowKitty]

Don beat me to this. Don't point out those kinds of things. But in your defense Toro did a poor job on the breadcrumb, it reads as a soft-claim.

I'm actually siding with IK on this one. I read toro's statement as a soft-claim, not breadcrumbing. In fact, I think that might have been his intention, but I don't think it would be wise to press the matter as of yet, especially since that was potentially our second soft-claim (dj's being the first).

I'd prefer we keep the gut townie alive and look at the others while we still have a good couple of days.

My gut is saying weird things to me about IK, but for the most part, I agree with this.

Vote: jason

Jason wouldn't be as good of an information lynch, but he's definitely scummy and less blatantly so than IK, which could be more telling of scum trying to blend in.

It would be nice if ryan, shrine, or RC could stop in soon so we have a better idea of where the town is leaning and (hopefully) find someone whose lynch the majority of the town supports.

[jasonT1981]

not sure what the second part there means, but no.

i have not read the entire game, nor do i plan to.

if i get the chance, i will, but at this point i think I have plenty to go on and it is time consuming enough to stay current.

I am sorry, but I find this unacceptable... If you are going to at least play, you need to know what has gone on earlier in the game. You would support a lynch on someone... anyone without knowing what has gone on before hand?

unacceptable. How can you support someones lynch without knowing the full facts or forming your own opinions?

i would move to jason as well, but if he flips town then the quandary surrounding ik's alignment would still stand.

i think the ik lynch is necessary to confirm our current suspicions. but i'm not going to swim against the current with deadline looming.

So you don't really care who gets lynched and you will just go with the flow... noted


Also, DRK... whats with the vote hoping as of late? going from wagon to wagon as the deadline draws nearer hoping for anyones lynch it seems. very wishy washy off you. seems you just want to go with the flow.

Seems weird to me that you will suddenly jump vote again when DTM asks you about lynches...

I'd prefer we keep the gut townie alive and look at the others while we still have a good couple of days.

My gut is saying weird things to me about IK, but for the most part, I agree with this.

Vote: jason

Jason wouldn't be as good of an information lynch, but he's definitely scummy and less blatantly so than IK, which could be more telling of scum trying to blend in.

It would be nice if ryan, shrine, or RC could stop in soon so we have a better idea of where the town is leaning and (hopefully) find someone whose lynch the majority of the town supports.

And again you seem happy to go with the majority of the town... happy with whatever lynch. I would not be a sorce of good information... im less blatently scummy than IK, even your gut is saying IK in your own words but then you vote me right after saying those three things?

Weird

[Zachrulez]

Don beat me to this. Don't point out those kinds of things. But in your defense Toro did a poor job on the breadcrumb, it reads as a soft-claim.

I'm actually siding with IK on this one. I read toro's statement as a soft-claim, not breadcrumbing. In fact, I think that might have been his intention, but I don't think it would be wise to press the matter as of yet, especially since that was potentially our second soft-claim (dj's being the first).

I'd prefer we keep the gut townie alive and look at the others while we still have a good couple of days.

My gut is saying weird things to me about IK, but for the most part, I agree with this.

Vote: jason

Jason wouldn't be as good of an information lynch, but he's definitely scummy and less blatantly so than IK, which could be more telling of scum trying to blend in.

It would be nice if ryan, shrine, or RC could stop in soon so we have a better idea of where the town is leaning and (hopefully) find someone whose lynch the majority of the town supports.

Wait what? IK is scummier than Jason, yet you're voting for Jason? That makes no sense at all.