Mafia 99 - Killers Mafia (game over)

[donkeyz12212]

You can dislike my opinion as to why you posted those questions as much as you like Michael. It is my perspective as to why those questions were asked. Why would there be any need for me to wait for you at all?

[Jackinthebox777]

jackinthebox: why the sudden change of heart? What inspired you to keep playing?

I wanted to keep playing because my other game is to slow.

Who do you think is the most scummy so far?

Far_Cry, for reason's stated below.
Do you think it's a good idea to go after the lurkers?
No, unless there is no one else acting suspicous and theres a deadline or something.

What's your opinion on FC and saber going after each other?

At the moment, I feel as though saber might be scum, due to the fact that many of his posts seem to be making jokes, acting light about everything he may be scum trying to act like a laid back towy, although that is a fair amount of reaching.

Q2: I rly believe u are trying to act super-town.

This. Far_Cry seems to be doing a far amount more reaching then I am here. I really do not think that this is a reason to vote someone. In fact, it's almost WIFOM.

Vote: Far_Cry

I also don't like reality Fans vote on me. Yes, I'm slightly biased about it, but I truly don't think that lurking is a scumtell.

[MichelSableheart]

You can dislike my opinion as to why you posted those questions as much as you like Michael. It is my perspective as to why those questions were asked. Why would there be any need for me to wait for you at all?

Your post implies that my questions were not game related, when they were in fact relevant. As a result, you manipulate the town as a whole to perceive my post as more scummy then it should be. Which is better for scum then for town, as it makes my mislynch more likely.

[MichelSableheart]

You can expect my opinions after thoroughly reading tomorrow.

Mod:

RealityFan, Santos and Sudai seem in need of a prod.

[donkeyz12212]

@Saberwolf and Far_Cry. I would like to hear your opinions on the Random Voting Stage. What is it? Why does it exist? How should people behave during the RVS? When does it end?

@Saberwolf. Please give me your definition of lurking. Do you believe lurking is scummy? Why (not)?

@Saberwolf, responding to #148. You are aware this is a normal game? Thatwould mean no abnormal rules/roles, and therefore no postrestrictions.

Really? Ok then, thanks for the clear up there.

Opinions follow when I've read the entire thread.

This is not helping town in any way MSH, but just to humour you:

My perspective on you asking those questions were to give you more credit, not to discredit you. It was essentially a response to Saberwolf criticizing you as to why you are asking those question. He implies by saying

"this is not helping town in any way MSH, but just to humour you"

that he is just answering the question for the hell of it.

I looked at the questions you asked and to me, they seem irrevelant to the specific game. You don't mention (in the questioning towards saber) about specific incidents. You generalize with questions such as

"Please give me your definition of lurking"

That can be applied to any mafia game but what about it in this game is so important? This is in my opinion, why I see the questions as irrelevant but the fact remains:

this is where I give you credit,

That by having saberwolf answer these questions now, we can check to see if his beliefs are the same later down the road. Look back to my example.

So my post was to discredit saberwolf's notion that the questioning doesn't seem to help because I personally think it does.

So I'm not sure how you find that as a manipulation of town and calling for your mislynch when I am backing you up ?

---

As for the votes now/reasoning

Saberwolf - Donkeyz (vote based on hoping to draw a connection between saber and Farcry), Chaco (for reasons already stated, saber's votes are wishy washy and posts are lackluster),

Far Cry - Boxman (voting him based on "supertown" thing with other reasons.), Jackinthebox (based on supertown thing against far cry as well)

Michaelsableheart - Manho (based on the fact that PIMJ became overdefensive after Farcry accused toast)

So this is what I have for now.

---

Chaco's vote on saberwolf appears to be a BS vote. His vote on Saberwolf makes wolf more likely to be town in my opinion. Chaco just simply uses a common argument as to why someone is scum (wishy washiness and lackluster posts). There has to be more concrete reasons as to why you would want someone out besides their posting. What is it specifically in this game that they did that make u think he is scum? An incident.

Jackinthebox vote on Farcry - You think both saberwolf and Farcry is scum. Yet you opted to vote Farcry over saberwolf. If Farcry turns up town, what do you think saber is? Also, you mention Saberwolf first as being scum in your latest post, why not vote him over farcry?

[RealityFan]

I'm happy where my vote is right now.

My vote would go to saberwolf. His fighting with Far Cry could possibly be scum vs town but its unlikely. I think if saberwolf turns up town, then Far Cry could very possibly be scum. however if saberwolf turns up scum, then far cry is less likely to be scum. I just don't think scums would draw attention to each other so quickly, especially in first round. Then again its really WIFOM what scum would or would not do.

So state freely who you guys would vote at this very INSTANT.

I don't get this. You directly contridict yourself. You say the fight between saber and FC is very likely town vs. town, but want to lynch saber anyway, JUST for information on far_cry? How is that pro-town?

[saberwolf]

Ok so donkey, I read your one post, and I'd have to say I'd vote you. One, because you were the first person to pop into mind as I was reading your post, and two [more importantly] you seem to be trying to play the town up a little, and by this I mean you are starting to defend other people or speak on their behalf [MHS] and you try to side with everyone so that you can be in everyone's good books, but end up contradicting yourself because of it. A good instance would be that you claim me and FC fighting is probably town vs. town, but then join everyone else in claiming we're probably both scum, and that FC is scummier. Btw, setting up lynches in advance is not pro-town in a game with night phases, it helps scum know who and who not to NK. Also, I think that while I thought MHS's post was anti-town [although now I realise the merit to it], this is definitely antitown. You are gathering seperations and feelings from players, making it easy for scum to analyze and twist to their own uses. Hypothetically, I could be scum, looking at what someone posted, and if I see two or more people agreeing to vote for the same person, I could start driving a case and a BW on that select person, knowing that the BW would catch on pretty well. That's how i see it anyways...anyone want to put a pro-town light on it?

[Devestation]

@Chaco: Read harder, this has been explained.

[donkeyz12212]

V/LA for a couple of days. (Driving from seattle to LA. Yikes!)

Will respond when I have more time.

[Empking]

If you want somebody to be prodded because I haven't noticed it, tell me in thread.

Prodding the people Michel said.

[MichelSableheart]

So I'm not sure how you find that as a manipulation of town and calling for your mislynch when I am backing you up ?

Both Far_Cry and saberwolf had asked me how my questions were relevant to the current game, and why I asked them. If you had waited for me to respond to that, you would have heard exactly why I asked those questions: to compare their answers to behaviour I noticed earlier in the thread.

However, you didn't wait. You decided to answer the question directed to me, and in the process, you called the questions I asked irrelevant to the current game. That is incorrect, my questions did have a direct relationship to the game. I just didn't explicitly state that relationship when I asked the questions, because I didn't want to influence the answers. However, because as part of the first answer to why I asked those questions, you stated that they were irrelevant to the current game, the rest of the town is more likely to perceive that as true.

So, as a direct result of your post, the town is more likely to perceive my post as irrelevant, and therefore more likely to perceive me as someone who makes irrelevant posts. That is manipulating the town, and making my mislynch more likely. (please note the difference between making a mislynch more likely, and calling for a mislynch)

[Empking]

1. Jackinthebox777 (0) - realityfan
2. Santos (0)
3. Devestation (0)
4. Far_Cry (3) - Flava Flave , Boxman, Jacinthebox777
5. RealityFan (0)
6. Flava Flave(1) - Far_Cry
7. Boxman (0) -
8. Michelsabreheart (1) - Sudai
9. Saberwolf (1) - Chaco
10. manho (1) - Pimj,
11. Donkeyz (0) -
12. Sudai (0)
13. Chaco (0) -
Not voting (4) -, Santos, Donkeyz, Michelsabreheart, Sabrewolf

[Chaco]

Chaco's vote on saberwolf appears to be a BS vote. His vote on Saberwolf makes wolf more likely to be town in my opinion. Chaco just simply uses a common argument as to why someone is scum (wishy washiness and lackluster posts). There has to be more concrete reasons as to why you would want someone out besides their posting. What is it specifically in this game that they did that make u think he is scum? An incident

Even if it as a common argument, is it not true? There are more reasons, look at it. Saber has been in a conundrum with Far_Cry. They buddied, then they fought, and then Saber said essentially "Okay we'll stop fighting now". Do you not see this?

I'll make a larger post on him later.

[MichelSableheart]

After studying the game, I have three main suspects. In alphabetical order:

Suspect #1: Boxman
Usually, Boxman posts once every three days, with gaps up to a week. He isn't inactive however, seeing that he comes back to post before he needed prodding.

If I look at what he posted, his posts are alarmingly irrelevant. Here's a simply PBPA, all post numbers are ISO.
#0 confirmation, no scumhunting
#1 random vote, no scumhunting
#2 answering toast's question, no pressure on anyone, no scumhunting
#3 more discussion about toast's question, no scumhunting
#4 RVS discussion, no pressure, no scumhunting
#5 yet another answer to a question, no pressure, no scumhunting

The posts above are essentially posts during the RVS. It should be noted however that he makes no attempt whatsoever to get out of that stage

#6 comments on ongoing discussion between sudai and saberwolf. No pressure, no scumhunting
#7 calls himself a terrible scumhunter in reaction to ongoing discussion. No pressure, no scumhunting
#8 joking around. No pressure, no scumhunting
#9 more joking around. No pressure, no scumhunting
#10 follows Saberwolf into attacking inactives, with no explanation why inactives are more likely to be scum.
#11 votes Far_Cry for poor reasons: see below.
#12 onliner confirming his previous post.

Overall, during the entire game so far, Boxman made 2 posts that could be considered scumhunting, only 1 of which had an original opinion, and none of which were actually likely to catch scum. He wasn't inactive, so that can't be the problem. Far too many of his posts were completely irrelevant though. To me, he seems to be the perfect example of someone who is lurking scum, trying to stay under the radar to avoid being voted.

I promised to go into more depth of post #11. For completeness, I've quoted his post as being a response to a post by Far_Cry. In reality, he didn't quote Far_Cry, just responded to him.

@Donkeyz, I remember a while back (at page 2 or 3), you said town should be worried about scum playing super-townie. I think u should be very worried now.

Why is that? I was pretty sure that was why everybody is too scared to do anything, and as far as I see as of right now, nobody is super-townie.

Q2: I rly believe u are trying to act super-town.

Super Town is a stupid way to implicate someone. See Too Townie.

In the wiki link posted, the attack "you are acting so pro-town, you must be scum" is called a logical fallacy. However, if I look closely at what Far_Cry is saying, that doesn't seem to be the argument Far_Cry was making (@FARCRY: Please correct this if I'm wrong). To me, it seems that Far_Cry was arguing that Saberwolf was trying too hard to appear pro-town, to be the nice guy, to get into everybody's good book. That saberwolf was more concerned with the impression he made on the other players then actually finding scum. That his behaviour felt unnatural. Note the difference between "you are trying to act supertown" and "you are supertown". Far_Cry's argument seems a completely valid reason for suspicion to me.
On a related note, it is interesting to see that Boxman completely ignored the discussion about Super Town's when donkeyz brought it up on page 3.

Again guys this is the problem. People are hunting lurkers in this game, not scum. Stop.

How are you to know that the lurkers are not scum...unless of course, you being scum, already know that the lurkers do not fall in your faction. Another theory is that some of those lurkers ARE in your faction, and are nervous that my list could encourage others to vote for your scumbuddies.

Q4: I'm not falling for your shitty pressure. Again u are trying to act like a fucking smart-ass. Start actually contributing.

Pressure is a totally valid scumhunting tool. Trying to undermine it is scummy. [SNIP Far_Cry vote]

Point #1: saberwolf was arguing that the inactives are scum. He didn't provide any evidence for that. When Far_Cry questions that, the response consist of insinuations without proof, and the burden of proof being pushed to Far_Cry ("how do you know the lurkers aren't scum"). As far as actual scumhunting goes, saberwolf's post seems pretty useless, and Far_Cry is perfectly in his rights to dismiss it.
Point #2: Undermining pressure against you is a very pro-town thing to do, because you know you are pro-town, and therefore that the pressure is aimed at the wrong person.

---
Suspect #2: Devestation

My reasons for suspecting Devestation are not nearly as strong as those on my other two subjects. There seems however something seriously strange about him.

For starters, he was extremely eager to start. He was the first to confirm, and started posting before everybody was even confirmed. With a join date in februari and a title of mafia goon, he probably has a couple of games under his belt already, so this eagerness can't be explained by the fact that he's new. The most logical explanation for this behaviour, at least to me, would be that he is excited about playing an interesting role. That makes him probable scum.

Also very strange are his ISO posts #8 and #9. He bandwagon votes Far_Cry, only to change his mind and unvote 15 minutes later. I'm doubting the explanation he gave in post #9. If he was really kidding, he would have posted the unvote in the same post as the original vote, or at least posted it within a couple of minutes, IMO. If he was in fact joking, he would have known what he was going to say, and wouldn't have needed 15 minutes to type 3 lines.

Next, ISO #10. In it, Devestation calls Sudai a hypocrit, because "I havent seen your 8 posts". Actually counting the posts Sudai made till that time, shows a grand total of 11, or 9 when he accused pimj (easiest way to count them is looking at Sudai in ISO, then looking at the postnumber of his last post before the moment Devestation made his ISO #10). If you are going to make such a strong accusation, do your homework and make sure your reasoning isn't effectively lying.

---
Suspect #3: Saberwolf

Saberwolf has made by far the most posts of any player in this game. However, a large part of what he writes consists of irrelevant fluff, that has absolutely nothing to do with scumhunting. Examples include (but are not limited to) ISO posts #23, #29, #30, #33, #38. He seems to spent a lot of energy joking around, being the nice guy. I'm affraid he's trying to create a sentiment of "let's not lynch him, he's far too nice to have around".

Besides that, there are several actions that struck me as scummy. I've mentioned two of them already: First his ISO post #6 (and several other posts shortly afterwards), where he voted for non-game related reasons when he could have actually commented on what is going on; and post #144, where he is going after inactives rather then lurkers.

An interesting mistake is made in ISO #26 (underlining mine):

You are right, I can't prove anything by number of posts. HOWEVER, you shouldn't quickly discredit the possibility of post restrictions for a role. This is a setup where virtually any role could be involved, so we'll just have to wait and see. How can I hunt

town

when this game isn't going anywhere? I decided to vote for a lurker, as I don't have any other immediate suspicions yet other than sudai. If sudai does anything that I regard as scummy, I'll consider switching back to him, but I rather see if anything will come out of this.

His ISO post #24 and #32 both implicitly or explicitly reference to "posting lots" as a pro-town tell. This is bringing a whole lot of WIFOM in the game (he can't be scum because he has the highest post count; he is aware of this, so he would try to have the highest post count as scum too) over what is essentially a rubbish argument: posting lots is very good for scum too, because it allows them to steer the town in the direction they want.

His ISO post #37 purposefully ignores the difference between "he is trying to act super town" and "he is super town", in order to completely misrepresent Far_Cry's argument.

And finally, there is the way he responded to my questions in ISO #40. He calls them unhelpful to the town first, and only asks explanation later.

---
It is still early in the game, so there is a significant chance that I'm mistaken about who is scum. If that happens, I prefer to lynch somebody who wouldn't be helpful to the town over someone who is. Of my top suspects, Boxman has been the least helpful to the town so far. He seems to be the best lynch for today.

Vote: Boxman

[manho]

@mod, the vote count is not accurate as pimj and MSH are the same people and i've voted pimj, which is MSH now.

nice analysis by MSH. i haven't noticed that boxman is lurking. i found devestation more scummy than MSH thought. he is as scummy as boxman and saber imo. both devestation and saber are trying very hard to not look scummy. trying to look pro-town is not scummy, but trying to not look scummy is. i know that i may be a bit inconsistent, but that's my thought now.

unvote, vote boxman

. a little BW should be good now to put pressure on the lurker.

[Boxman]

I didn't point out the Supertown idea on page 3 because no one was trying to implicate anyone at that point - when someone tries to implicate someone using a logical fallacy, it would be time to bring out a vote.

Also, eagerness to start means nothing. You try to get me on attacking someone for poor reasons, and then you attack Devestation for "being too eager?" That somehow makes him "probable scum?" What? For all we know, he could have a neat role and wanted to get started.

I can't really say anything on saberwolf. He DOES look scummy, but I'll sit with my original vote. I still say Far_Cry is scummier.

[saberwolf]

Note to self: comment and reply to post 238 on monday. Do not have the time to do it now

Nice post MHS. I will respond in due time with my rebuttal.

[Far_Cry]

I didn't point out the Supertown idea on page 3 because no one was trying to implicate anyone at that point - when someone tries to implicate someone using a logical fallacy, it would be time to bring out a vote.

Also, eagerness to start means nothing. You try to get me on attacking someone for poor reasons, and then you attack Devestation for "being too eager?" That somehow makes him "probable scum?" What? For all we know, he could have a neat role and wanted to get started.

I can't really say anything on saberwolf. He DOES look scummy, but I'll sit with my original vote. I still say Far_Cry is scummier.

Alright, WHY do you think Im scummy?

@Michel: I would agree that Boxman is very possible suspect. However I'm not quite so sure about Devestation and Saber.

You are right; Devestation HAS been asking strange. But strange doesn't necessarily mean scum. However, I still think he needs more analysis.

Saber, on the other hand, is hard to read now. My opinion on him changes probably daily. Sometimes I think he's town, sometimes I think he's scum.

The way Saber was trying to act like the nice guy came off scummy to me. However, I know Saber's playing style, and the way he's playing right now, he would be leaning towards town. In any case, I'm still gonna put him under close watch.

[Santos]

I see the Boxes are piling up, but honestly they both appear suspect.

Devestation is still in my eyes just because not much came from him earlier in the day.

Since Boxman has some pressure, it sure would do to put some more pressure elsewhere because RealityFan seems pretty confidant in his vote placement at the moment. I am inclined to follow and see the reaction:

Vote: Jackinthebox

, not for lurking, but defending just one vote on yourself because you don't like being called a lurker.

[MichelSableheart]

I didn't point out the Supertown idea on page 3 because no one was trying to implicate anyone at that point - when someone tries to implicate someone using a logical fallacy, it would be time to bring out a vote.

Donkeyz particulary asked for opinions on supertowns. If it is your opinion that you would never lynch someone on that because it is a logical fallacy, you should have pointed this out. By ignoring it, you were implying that you agreed to the general town sentiment, and therefore you were basically inviting people to attack someone for being supertown, so that you could attack them for it.

Also, eagerness to start means nothing. You try to get me on attacking someone for poor reasons, and then you attack Devestation for "being too eager?" That somehow makes him "probable scum?" What? For all we know, he could have a neat role and wanted to get started.

Let's look at two groups. The first group is the group of all players in the game, the second group is the group of all players who don't have a Vanilla Townie role. Obviously, in an normal game, the percentage of scum in the second group is much higher (I would roughly estimate the percentages for 25% on group 1, and 50% for group 2). Because I feel it is likely that Devestation is a member of the second group, I belief that the chance that he is scum is considerable higher then the chance that a random other player is scum.

[RealityFan]

But Michel, the problem with that is that if it IS indeed a mislynch, it is a power-role. Also, you seem to be role-fishing. Stop.

[Flava Flave]

Hey, I'll have my thoughts ready soon.

[Flava Flave]

Ok, dinner time. I'm through 3 pages and haven't really seen anything relevant. Some players pinged my gut though. Notably Far_Cry, Saber, and Sudai as scum and then Devestator and Donkeyz as town. I'll try to finish after dinner, but have to go in about an hour, so might not finish. I will get caught up and active though even if it's not tonight.

[Flava Flave]

Ok. So far, more people look newbish than scummy/townie. I'll see what I can do.

It is wise to come up with a good reason to do the bandwagon in the first place. Mine is that Far Cry is best positioned for one

unvote, vote Far_Cry

.

unvote

Kidding

Personally I am against bandwagons for the sake of them unless you seriously think someone should be on the recieving end of a noose. I can't see anyone that fits that criteria yet.

Why did it take 16 minutes just to tell us that the post was supposedly a joke?

Saber starts to look townier with his reaction-fishing. I don't expect newer scum to do that so blatantly.

Damnit, now Sudai looks townier too. Top of page 5 where he FoS's Far_Cry and Pim, and doesn't say why.

Through 5 pages and found something interesting. Pimj is mentioned as scummy quite a bit, but no votes. Possible distancing?

I approve of Saber's lurkerhunt.

Ok, my vote is where I want it. Far_Cry is likely scum. Michel and manho are probably scum too. Dev, Saber, Santos, and donkeyz are really townie.

[Far_Cry]

Ok. So far, more people look newbish than scummy/townie. I'll see what I can do.

It is wise to come up with a good reason to do the bandwagon in the first place. Mine is that Far Cry is best positioned for one

unvote, vote Far_Cry

.

unvote

Kidding

Personally I am against bandwagons for the sake of them unless you seriously think someone should be on the recieving end of a noose. I can't see anyone that fits that criteria yet.

Why did it take 16 minutes just to tell us that the post was supposedly a joke?

Saber starts to look townier with his reaction-fishing. I don't expect newer scum to do that so blatantly.

Damnit, now Sudai looks townier too. Top of page 5 where he FoS's Far_Cry and Pim, and doesn't say why.

Through 5 pages and found something interesting. Pimj is mentioned as scummy quite a bit, but no votes. Possible distancing?

I approve of Saber's lurkerhunt.

Ok, my vote is where I want it. Far_Cry is likely scum. Michel and manho are probably scum too. Dev, Saber, Santos, and donkeyz are really townie.

Now that was some real shit. You didn't post anything to back yourself up. You playing the I think....., I think...... game. Scum? Very possibly? Anti-town? Definitely. I've already asked this question a few times: WHY DO YOU THINK I'M SCUM?????????? Every single one of you guys that attacked me and think I'm scum did so without valid reason. You just throw stuff out to show like you are participating in the game. What the fuck is up with dat??