Mini 845 - The Amish Village (Game Over)

[magnus_orion]

Don't worry, I have a tendency to die N1 anyway.

Votecount 1-3
le Chat (1): Claus
Claus (1): Artem
Artem (2): Red_Dye; Magnus_Orion
Magnus_Orion (1): Herodotus
Red_Dye (1): Kairyuu

[le Chat]

Ok guys, here is the plan:

We are going to eliminate the players in order from the youngest to the oldest. I'm pretty sure this is the winning strategy.

Vote: Le Chat

More votes on Le Chat, please!

Mean old grouch!

Magnus... I very much agree with Claus and Nuwen. I don't feel like I got anything from reading those three pages. It seems like that stuff could just be said by anyone regardless of alignment. I'll read it again and again because that's what I have to do to finally mentally attach what everyone said to their avatar/name but golly gee jeepers whiz whillickers that is a lot of talk.

[Claus]

Interesting answers to my question.

@Magnus_Orion

woah, wait what?
to clarify, are you saying you can't be bothered to read 3 pages of posting?

Where the hell did I say that? Of course I read those 3 pages of spam. That's why I complained about it. If you will take my suggestion, restrict yourself to 4 posts a day, and make an effort to post relevant opinions and responses in each post. That will reduce the amount of noise in the thread and make it easier for everybody to participate.

Also, you posted so much, and yet did not answer my simple question. Which two posts are the most relevant to your case?

@Red_Dye

Why isn't it a fair question? Can't you point to one specific post from Artem and say: "Here, this is what smell most scummy to me"?

If not, what smells scummy to you about Artem?

@Kairyuu

Thanks for playing. I see what you mean. Not sure if I agree. Don't you think it is a bit early to accuse someone of trying to speedlynch when the wagon has exactly 2 votes? Do you have anything else on Red?

Also, what do you think about Magnus Orion? He is voting with Red.

@Albert and Nuwen and MiteyMouse

HI! <3

Now, what did you two think about the two pages we had so far?

@le Chat

I can't blame you for not getting anything from those three pages. But I can blame you for not asking questions about them. Why are you buddying up with me and Nuwen without posting anything significant to the game itself?

=========

My opinion: I got some town feels (not saying who) from the spammy three pages, and no particularly scummy reads yet. Waiting for Artem to answer me.

I did not quite like the way that LeChat buddied up to me and Nuwen without contributing to the discussion, so I'm a bit happier with my vote. Nuwen, ABR, do you think that piling a few more votes on the cat might make him loose his tongue?

And of course, we still have three or four more players to contribute. Hope to see them when I return tomorrow!

[le Chat]

@le Chat

I can't blame you for not getting anything from those three pages. But I can blame you for not asking questions about them. Why are you buddying up with me and Nuwen without posting anything significant to the game itself?

I specifically stated that while I don't feel like I got anything worthwhile, I plan to read it again and again. It seems that I should have explicitly stated that when reading them again, if I find something I can latch onto, I will.

I'm not buddying up to you and Nuwen; I am agreeing with you two that I found it hard to find tells in those three pages of back and forth between four players. Hopefully everyone will agree with that. If everyone agrees with that, then we can all "buddy up" to you and Nuwen, and we can all be best buddies forever, and live happily ever after. :P

[le Chat]

Nuwen, ABR, do you think that piling a few more votes on the cat might make him loose his tongue?

:P

apparently i fell for your trap. zut.

[Amished]

Just to make sure you see it (I edited in the answer into Nuwen's post), scum were able to communicate in the confirmation stage.

Happy Labor Day!

[Red_Dye]

@Red_Dye

Why isn't it a fair question? Can't you point to one specific post from Artem and say: "Here, this is what smell most scummy to me"?

If not, what smells scummy to you about Artem?

What if there weren't exactly 2 posts that I feel could sum up the case? What if I don't find Artem scummy? I think those 3 pages do the best job of displaying what I wanted to display.

[Nuwen]

Konowa and Rosso are either town or scum that missed their opportunity to converse pre-game.

Claus, at this point in the game, what characteristics separate scum buddying and town agreement?

What makes you assume that

I'm

town to be buddied with? You can suspect Chat of buddying to yourself as a town player, but can't make that assumption about any other player without outside information.

[magnus_orion]

Where the hell did I say that? Of course I read those 3 pages of spam. That's why I complained about it. If you will take my suggestion, restrict yourself to 4 posts a day, and make an effort to post relevant opinions and responses in each post. That will reduce the amount of noise in the thread and make it easier for everybody to participate.

Also, you posted so much, and yet did not answer my simple question. Which two posts are the most relevant to your case?

That's nice, I'll keep doing what I think works though, its not like I'm new to this. However, my posting is slowing, if only because I have no reason to continue to post quickly.

Also, I have a town read on artem at the moment, just didn't bother to move my vote. There's no one scummy enough to move it too (yet).

[Nuwen]

Also, I have a town read on artem at the moment

Why?

And why not unvote without replacing your vote; keeping it in place seems like a convenient way to rejoin any wagon that crops up on him without the trouble of re-explaining a revote.

[magnus_orion]

Because he made a manouver that tried to get a read on me.
My reads are very fluid though, I'm one who changes my mind on things based on single posts.

I don't move my vote because I don't have anywhere to put it, and always want it somewhere for day 1. Because of my posting frequency, which you have already observed, if the wagon on artem moves rapidly toward a lynch, I will comment on that, and unless I've changed my mind, unvote.

@le chat: are you saying that you decline to comment on things until you see something that you think is scummy?

[Nuwen]

Vote: magnus_orion

.

[magnus_orion]

Vote: magnus_orion

.

?

[Red_Dye]

I disagree with that vote.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Vote Red_Dye

FOS Kairyuu, Magnus

Scummy vibes from all three. One of Red_Dye and Kairyuu is more suspicious than the other, I haven't decided which one yet.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Nuwen, ABR, do you think that piling a few more votes on the cat might make him loose his tongue?

I think pressuring the wrong players can have disastrous consequences on the town. Not convinced by Le Chat's culpability so far.

And by the way, we have more than 2 pages, in case you still have your head in the clouds

[Herodotus]

Posting is good. Posting explosion (especially by less than half of the players) is bad.
Wallposting is bad, too, but I like analyzing the first few pages. I've tried to prune this a little for redundancy with other peoples' posts and questions that were later answered.

Kairyuu 13
Red Dye's post 11 didn't look serious, so I wouldn't have been on board to go after him for it.

Kairyuu 19
When you say that your vote is serious, does that mean that you want to pressure/lynch Red Dye?
Edit: do you currently consider him a good lynch?

Magnus 21
I'm not so sure Artem was even pseudo-serious about that, but pseudo-serious-seeming works. Do you consider that a scumtell? (Since you later ask for direct opinions, I think it's a null-tell.)
If Artem is town, would that reverse your reads on Red Dye and/or Kairyuu?
It looks like Kairyuu made you change from [not caring to explain at the moment] to [okay] in one post by [insisting]. Noteworthy, but not a particularly strong tell. Unless one of you flips scum, in which case, I'd be a little more suspicious of the other.

Red Dye 27
How did Magnus sidetrack the Artem wagon? What he wrote could be interpreted as calling for more people to join it...

Kairyuu 30
Lol. Took me a minute to get it; at first I thought you were saying Magnus's opinion that you quoted was your opinion.

Kairyuu 38
I agree with sentence #1. It's not clear whether it applies to Artem's post, but it does refute Magnus's point. However, my reading of your post 19 makes me feel like you could have had a similar opinion about Red Dye's attack on Artem (at that time, at least.) Is that correct?
I don't think Red Dye's vote was likely to "extend the RVS." Maybe over the long term in the site meta, attacking the first person who looks serious could make RVS's longer, but not within a given game.

Red Dye 41
When you say you've been posting seriously since your second post, does that mean you wanted a quicklynch of Artem?

Magnus 43 and 49
Artem had made one sentence in his defense, after you asked people for comments on your 3 points -- doesn't really look overly defensive, if that's what you mean.
I don't like part about no longer wanting people to comment on what you wrote earlier. It's not clear that you're necessarily saying "please ignore what I wrote before," but it gives me a feeling as if you were.

Mitey 63 and Claus 65
I agree. Blabbermouths (though it's not bothering me as long as it doesn't continue for the rest of the game.)

Claus, Red Dye, and Magnus 65-67
Claus's question is good and fair. Claus may be unhappy that I'm taking so much of pages 1 and 2 seriously with this post.

le Chat 78
I didn't find any major tells either, but I hope someone will disagree with that.

Magnus 83 and Nuwen 84
I find this suspicious too, not so much for the reason Nuwen does, but more because you seem timid about voting some other person.

Magnus 85
Given your posting frequency, why do you want to always have your vote on someone throughout day 1? And the way you refer to changing your mind looks a little like a plan on your part.

---

My vote on Magnus is no longer random. I'm thinking that Magnus looks moderately scummy. Kairyuu has some questions to answer but doesn't really look suspicious. Red Dye looks slightly townish, but is playing strangely (though I dislike post 81.) Will need more spread out involvement before trying to figure others out. A Magnus wagon may help in that regard.

@Artem
How do you feel about unexplained, nonrandom votes?
How serious was your first post?

[magnus_orion]

I'm not so sure Artem was even pseudo-serious about that, but pseudo-serious-seeming works. Do you consider that a scumtell? (Since you later ask for direct opinions, I think it's a null-tell.)
If Artem is town, would that reverse your reads on Red Dye and/or Kairyuu?
It looks like Kairyuu made you change from [not caring to explain at the moment] to [okay] in one post by [insisting]. Noteworthy, but not a particularly strong tell. Unless one of you flips scum, in which case, I'd be a little more suspicious of the other.

You may have noticed that I asked for something in that post, and kairyuu gave it to me. Hence, I no longer had a reason for hiding my "reasoning"

Artem had made one sentence in his defense, after you asked people for comments on your 3 points -- doesn't really look overly defensive, if that's what you mean.
I don't like part about no longer wanting people to comment on what you wrote earlier. It's not clear that you're necessarily saying "please ignore what I wrote before," but it gives me a feeling as if you were.

Certain comments I made defeated the purpose of people commenting. If they commented after I made those comments, I would no longer be able to get reads. You're free to continue making comments if you like, I'm just no longer actively encouraging (which is not to say I'm discouraging it, any comments are welcome)

I find this suspicious too, not so much for the reason Nuwen does, but more because you seem timid about voting some other person.

No not timid. I just don't want to have my vote not on anyone this early yet.
Why do you think I seem timid?

Given your posting frequency, why do you want to always have your vote on someone throughout day 1? And the way you refer to changing your mind looks a little like a plan on your part.

Maybe "always" was too strong a word. I don't want to not being voting anyone just yet. Also, I can link to games where I've been town to show my erractic playstyle is normal for me. I'm just not so sure of myself when I make a statement that new information won't over ride it.

[Artem]

I also want to ask Artem: Do you believe any of the current points being made are good? Which of Kairyuu, M_O and Red seem scum for you, and how strongly?

The only points I support are Kairyuu's "Speedlynching isn't pro-town" and "First semi-serious post is a null tell". Everything else is kinda 'meh'. Out of the three, I get a mild scummy read on Red, because:
1. He attempts to tie Kairyuu and I as scumbuddies, even though Kairyuu is arguing against the points brought up against me (instead of explicitly defending me), something that could easily be transferred over to any other player that may have done what I did.
2. The whole playstyle appears childish to me. The moment I start asking serious questions, we get a "Man this is totally not fun at all." reaction. I'm not sure exactly what Red expects a mafia game to be, if not scumhunting. Had this been his first game, I/we could probably write this off as inexperience, but the "Mafia Scum" rank below his name suggests that he's played here before. So the whole thing seems off to me.

@Red: Can you provide a few links to the games you've played in before?

2) Likely forces over-interactive to be hypersensitive to their suspicions of each other (more content, more possibly scummy content to wade through).

Quoted for truth, because I've seen plenty of games where the two most vocal players turn the game into a player X vs. player Y thing.

What makes you assume that I'm town to be buddied with? You can suspect Chat of buddying to yourself as a town player, but can't make that assumption about any other player without outside information.

I think this has some parallels with my post 51

How do you feel about unexplained, nonrandom votes?
How serious was your first post?

Unexplained votes don't bother me early in the game, because they are usually aimed at getting reactions. Interestingly enough, the lack of an explanation got no reactions out of Magnus or Kairyuu (the latter focused on the speedlynching aspect instead of asking why Red thought I was scum). It could very well be because nobody took Red's vote seriously, though. (Which, in turn, begs the question why the speedlynching aspect was taken seriously then.)

@Kairyuu: Mind clarifying that last point? Why did you focus on the speedlynching aspect of Red's vote on me rather than the lack of reasons?

My first post was about as serious as Claus's suggestion to lynch in the order of ages. I do agree that 'pseudo-serious-seeming' is a better adjective for it than 'pseudo-serious'.

Unvote

[Red_Dye]

This account is pretty new, this is its third game. I didn't realize I had hit mafia scum with it yet. My main on the other hand is quite old. Chamber. I was being intentionally the way I was during those first posts to get reactions. My only completed games are with chamber, feel free to search for some.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Clever, but the search function is disabled.

[Red_Dye]

Clever, but the search function is disabled.

google search works just fine.

[Rosso Carne]

/whee

[le Chat]

@Claus re 2: the DOB in my profile is 29 Dec 1989, the DOB in Kairyuu's profile is 25 Sep 1990. Your joke reasoning was wrong! I understand it was a joke. It was still wrong. Also, a few people don't have their DOB in their profile, and some have the d/m but no year... you're a dog person, aren't you?

@magnus_orion (and a little Kairyuu) re 21: was this for real? I don't follow the logic that the first pseudo-serious seeming post is scum. I can see how you make the dominoes fall after that, but that initial assumption is weak. Disagreement (23) not in that you have your reads specifically backwards but that its flaky logic. Kairyuu stated that 'the first approach to ending the RVS is more likely to be made by town than scum, though it could be made by either' ... uh, how so? I understand that getting away from the RVS is good for the progression of the game, but I don't follow that town would more likely end the RVS, unless you are specifically referring to the fact that there are more town than scum, and that is silly logic too. BOO at your 49 where you say you no longer want to hear opinions on this. BOO I say. I can comment both on this and on more current things.

@Artem re 51: If he had said "How do you know I'm a townie," but then further stated "mafia know who the townies are, so if you are mafia, you would know." Do you think that's still indicative of pro-scum thought-processes?

@Red_Dye re 69"Just because I was serious doesn't mean I intended to follow threw on everything I said. Things ca be said with other intents." What was your intent in saying "But its so much easier to get them killed when they can't fight back!" if you were 'out of the RVS?' Kairyuu is correct in saying iso-RedDye-10 makes iso-RedDye-4 look contradictory/out-of-place. I don't understand how your answer in 69 justifies the apparent contradiction because I don't understand your statement's alternate intent.

@Nuwen re 72: I agree with your opinion that these 3 pages have been... bad(I guess I'll call it?). But I didn't like them because I felt it made it really, really hard for me to attribute opinions/posts to their specific username/avatar. I stated earlier that I didn't think I could get much out of it... but I have and I think its a decent starting point. I guess I was simply surprised to see the game was at 4 pages before I even posted my first post and I was slightly intimidated by it and felt bad for it. But I don't follow your logic that rapid fire posting " Likely forces over-interactive to be hypersensitive to their suspicions of each other..." because if this were true, it wouldn't be a scummy thing to do. It would only benefit the scum if everyone who was rapid-fire posting was town-aligned, because you state it makes them all hypersensitive to each other. Scum don't want to be hypersensitive on townie scumdars, so they woudn't take place in the rapid fire posting, for fear of getting heavy attention towards them, and they would want the heavy attention going towards only townies. So then Scum can't make it happen, because they aren't taking part in it. Right?

@Claus re 65: I agree with you that the hyper posting is hurtful because, in comparison with what I said above about Nuwen's take on it, yours includes the scum using it to hide (read: not being a part of it, but being apart from it!). I'm also guessing you asked a different question of Artem because he didn't post as much as the other three, correct?

@Claus re 77: What's the difference between agreeing with two other people and buddying up with them? Is your definition that when you buddy up with someone you only post your agreement, but when you agree with them you also post other things? I see Nuwen also asked this question in 82. Feel free to answer twice!!

@MiteyMouse: I guess I agree with you too.

@magnus_orion re 85: No, I don't decline to comment on things unless I see something that's scummy. Sorry if I made it seem that way. I guess I mean that in reading those 3 pages, it's hard to comment on things individually unless I disagree with them. If I had been here while it was happening it would have been easier to comment on things normally.

[magnus_orion]

@magnus_orion (and a little Kairyuu) re 21: was this for real? I don't follow the logic that the first pseudo-serious seeming post is scum. I can see how you make the dominoes fall after that, but that initial assumption is weak.

No 21, was not "for real" in the normal meaning of the word.
21 was, however, "for real" in that I made it serious. Therefore, it made most votes after that point "for real" which is what is important.