Newbie 113 - Game Over

[Mr. Flay]

Everyone has a biased opinion of me as scummy. It's part of my persona You love me for it, Flay.

I just reread the thread, and I apologize for missing the double vote earlier. I was not paying much attention. I'm a good natured guy, and I always remember that this is still a game.

Whereas I play for blood... Fair enough...

As for scumminess and the such, I'm going to give minor (note the term, minor)

FoS: Flay and Stam

You both seem to be on the FoS train right now. IMHO, it seems taht you guys have nearly FOSed everyone so far, so, as of right now, my vote is staying on Flay.

Ehhh, reread my other games. I always FOS/vote everybody, whether I'm scum or not. That's cause I'm paranoid.

It seems to be rather funny, Flay, because of this...

LoudmouthLee, any particular reason you don't want us to get to a 2nd vote on anyone just yet? Right now, I'm probably most suspicious of yourself and Tamuz. Kain seems to just be a newbie with a lot of thoughts, as does EnterYourNameHere...

I just feel that it is very difficult, for a game such as a newbie game, to be piling on votes is a bad idea. More discussion, less second voting.

Please elaborate on what's "funny" about that comment (and I assume you don't mean ha-ha). I don't happen to feel that second votes are as dangerous in newbie games as people think they are, partially because games move much slower here than (say) GL.

As for missing on of the double voters... there isn't much I can say. But, let's not forget Occam's razor, people...

The simplest answer is the best. I missed it with a quick skim of random votes.

I'd be ready to accept that if my vote hadn't been RIGHT before your FOS in the thread. Post 24 was the last thing on Page 1, and your FOS was Post 25, an hour later.

However, my vote was ALREADY on Flay, and that would be a competent reason on why it didnt quite matter whether I made notice to flay or not.

Yes, but which is it? You can't have it both ways; either you missed it, or you felt it was already covered. I think you're manufacturing reasons after the fact.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

- I'm pretty sure that's the first one, but I still would like a vote count.

[Mr. Flay]

Everyone has a biased opinion of me as scummy. It's part of my persona You love me for it, Flay.

I just reread the thread, and I apologize for missing the double vote earlier. I was not paying much attention. I'm a good natured guy, and I always remember that this is still a game.

Whereas I play for blood... Fair enough...

As for scumminess and the such, I'm going to give minor (note the term, minor)

FoS: Flay and Stam

You both seem to be on the FoS train right now. IMHO, it seems taht you guys have nearly FOSed everyone so far, so, as of right now, my vote is staying on Flay.

Ehhh, reread my other games. I always FOS/vote everybody, whether I'm scum or not. That's cause I'm paranoid.

It seems to be rather funny, Flay, because of this...

LoudmouthLee, any particular reason you don't want us to get to a 2nd vote on anyone just yet? Right now, I'm probably most suspicious of yourself and Tamuz. Kain seems to just be a newbie with a lot of thoughts, as does EnterYourNameHere...

I just feel that it is very difficult, for a game such as a newbie game, to be piling on votes is a bad idea. More discussion, less second voting.

Please elaborate on what's "funny" about that comment (and I assume you don't mean ha-ha). I don't happen to feel that second votes are as dangerous in newbie games as people think they are, partially because games move much slower here than (say) GL.

As for missing on of the double voters... there isn't much I can say. But, let's not forget Occam's razor, people...

The simplest answer is the best. I missed it with a quick skim of random votes.

I'd be ready to accept that if my vote hadn't been RIGHT before your FOS in the thread. Post 24 was the last thing on Page 1, and your FOS was Post 25, an hour later.

However, my vote was ALREADY on Flay, and that would be a competent reason on why it didnt quite matter whether I made notice to flay or not.

Yes, but which is it? You can't have it both ways; either you missed it, or you felt it was already covered. I think you're manufacturing reasons after the fact.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

- I'm pretty sure that's the first one, but I still would like a vote count.

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, thought the forum ate my first attempt at posting that...

[Maximus]

Vote Count

1 - Kain (big_kahunia)
1 - Mr. Flay (LML)
1 - Stam (Kain)
1 - Tamuz (Stam)
1 - LML (Mr. Flay)

Takes 4 to lynch.

[Stam]

WOW!
There is only one thing to say:

unvote: Tamuz
Vote: LoudmouthLee

[Kain]

In pondering the points( especially the ones that Mr. Flay has brought up) I am now going to

FOS

you LML. I'm not voting for you right now because I want to hear your defense to everything Mr. Flay has brought against you so far.

[LoudmouthLee]

Everything?

First, Stam:

WOW!
There is only one thing to say:


unvote: Tamuz
Vote: LoudmouthLee

Your post is awful. Sheep.

Next, to answer more articulate things:

Please elaborate on what's "funny" about that comment (and I assume you don't mean ha-ha). I don't happen to feel that second votes are as dangerous in newbie games as people think they are, partially because games move much slower here than (say) GL.

Yeah, in a game like this, putting a second vote on someone is dangerous BECAUSE of the fast moving of teh games here.

Next point:

I'd be ready to accept that if my vote hadn't been RIGHT before your FOS in the thread. Post 24 was the last thing on Page 1, and your FOS was Post 25, an hour later.

My post was at 2:45AM (much like this one) and I normally get up for work early. (I'm a HS teacher). It was a moment of stupidity. Please, Flay, don't lynch for an honest mistake.

Do you REALLY think I'd make a mistake like THAT? I'd be much more careful if I were scum.

And finally, one thing I am guilty of...

Yes, but which is it? You can't have it both ways; either you missed it, or you felt it was already covered. I think you're manufacturing reasons after the fact.

Yeah, when everyone and their mother has an FoS pointed at you, you'd be feeling the same way, trying to locate the exact way to make sure everyone understands you. I should have said that it didnt matter anyway. However, I'll take my lumps for that.

It would, on the other hand, be awfully silly to lynch me for a small mistake.

Take your pick.

[Stam]

ok, I will be more articulate.
I know a lot about making mistakes under pressure.
Mr. Flay can tell you about things I did which are much worse than your post.
The two differences are:

1) You are much more experienced than myself. When you do things like that it raises questions.
2) You weren't really under pressure. There was no vote on you, just some FOSes.

For now, my vote on you stands.

[Mr. Flay]

First, Stam:

WOW!
There is only one thing to say:


unvote: Tamuz
Vote: LoudmouthLee

Your post is awful. Sheep.

For once, we agree.

FOS: Stam

for being a sheep and (paradoxically) being SO much better this game than last. Almost as if you had someone coaching you... but it's a small theory, and not enough to make me switch yet. If LML turns up good someday, however...

Next, to answer more articulate things:

Please elaborate on what's "funny" about that comment (and I assume you don't mean ha-ha). I don't happen to feel that second votes are as dangerous in newbie games as people think they are, partially because games move much slower here than (say) GL.

Yeah, in a game like this, putting a second vote on someone is dangerous BECAUSE of the fast moving of teh games here.

Uhhh, non-sequitur? I said it's because the games move much slower here, you said it's because they move so much faster...? Was this a typo or a difference of opinion (I always have the impression GL games have a faster pace)?

Next point:

I'd be ready to accept that if my vote hadn't been RIGHT before your FOS in the thread. Post 24 was the last thing on Page 1, and your FOS was Post 25, an hour later.

My post was at 2:45AM (much like this one) and I normally get up for work early. (I'm a HS teacher). It was a moment of stupidity. Please, Flay, don't lynch for an honest mistake.

Do you REALLY think I'd make a mistake like THAT? I'd be much more careful if I were scum.

Well, it was a first vote, not a lynching one; I'm still collecting information. Knowing it was at 3am helps, a bit. At this point I'd say that if you're scum, your most likely partners are EYNH or Kain. If you're not, I'd say Stam and (unknown). I still can't get a good read on Tamuz or big_k.

Off the record, is 2:45am when you GO to bed, or GET up?

And finally, one thing I am guilty of...

Yes, but which is it? You can't have it both ways; either you missed it, or you felt it was already covered. I think you're manufacturing reasons after the fact.

Yeah, when everyone and their mother has an FoS pointed at you, you'd be feeling the same way, trying to locate the exact way to make sure everyone understands you. I should have said that it didnt matter anyway. However, I'll take my lumps for that.

It would, on the other hand, be awfully silly to lynch me for a small mistake.

I don't think that incident by itself is lynchworthy, it's more of a general sense that you're playing similar to when you were scum, and possibly deliberately deflecting me.

Or maybe I just suspect everyone, and someone else is using me to get to you... ain't paranoia fun?

[Stam]

I had noone cauching me.
I learned from my mistakes there as I am learning from my sheep mistake here.
After your post #50, I was about 100% sure LML was a scum falling into a self-contradicting trap. This is why I was so quick to follow you.
Frankly, I am strating to have cold feet about that and I realize experienced players can make mistakes too.
I will keep my vote, because I still suspect LML more than anyone else here, but I am much less sure about it now.

[Kain]

Mr.

Mod

person dude.
Could we please get a vote count.
thanks

[Stam]

Kain, there was a vote count on post #53.
The only thing changed is that I switched from Tamuz to LML, so now Tamuz has 0 votes and LML has 2 votes. If you switch to LML too it would be a third vote.
I advise you not to do it until we hear the others.
If LML is a townie, a scum can just keep low profile and let the town do the dirty work. We should not allow that.

[Tamuz]

I'm getting bad vibes from Stam.

The quick vote switching without giving reason is very suspicious in my book, almost as if someone *was* couching him.... but who Mr. Flay?
I can't really see who would, do such a thing so early, the only one I really see trying to influence everyone else is Flay, but if he were couching Stam, then why would he point out the couching himself? It doesn't make sense to completely pit the mafia against each other this early, rather to get a kill then witch hunt in the second day.

For this, although I am suspicious of Stam, I do not think he is *that* guilty. However, the way Mr. Flay is taking the reigns makes me think of a mafiatic controlling tactic, which is especially helpful when you have an unobservant poster (an easy scapegoat in LML) plus two non-regular posters such as Big K & myself (though this is not by design in my part, I'm trying to post more... but I just got home). Couple this with Kain, and we are pretty much easy to lead by Flaw... but I'm not sure enough of this to even FOS yet

[Kain]

Pardon me but would you like to explain what you meant by saying

Couple this with Kain, and we are pretty much easy to lead by Flay... but I'm not sure enough of this to even FOS yet

I agree with you Tamuz about Stam, but I'd like to hear your reasonings/viewpoint as to why you feel bad vibes about him.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm getting bad vibes from Stam.

The quick vote switching without giving reason is very suspicious in my book, almost as if someone *was* couching him.... but who Mr. Flay?
I can't really see who would, do such a thing so early, the only one I really see trying to influence everyone else is Flay, but if he were couching Stam, then why would he point out the couching himself? It doesn't make sense to completely pit the mafia against each other this early, rather to get a kill then witch hunt in the second day.

For this, although I am suspicious of Stam, I do not think he is *that* guilty. However, the way Mr. Flay is taking the reigns makes me think of a mafiatic controlling tactic, which is especially helpful when you have an unobservant poster (an easy scapegoat in LML) plus two non-regular posters such as Big K & myself (though this is not by design in my part, I'm trying to post more... but I just got home). Couple this with Kain, and we are pretty much easy to lead by Flaw... but I'm not sure enough of this to even FOS yet

Tamuz, it's natural to suspect that either the most prolific or the most lurksome posters are possibly scummy...but in my case, it's just my natural playing style. I generally post only about every other time I come on, just because otherwise I'd be spamming the hell out of the boards.... I also suspect nearly everybody, nearly all the time.

I suspect we'll be a little quieter for the weekend, but I want to hear more from big_k and EYNH soon. I'm content with my vote for now.

[Tamuz]

I do know that Flay, it is natural to suspect those two the most, because in small games it is, more often than not, better for a mafia to be one or the other rather than a bandwagoning sheep, not that I'm ruling out our sheep being mafia.

Kain, I was basically saying with the following conditions:
A Scapegoat (LML)
Quiet people (Yo y Big_K)
Stam & yourself being more or less led

Then Mr. Flay is basically having a field day moving around suspicions. My bad vibe, as I said, come from his quick vote switching without reason, just a "WOW!". Then again, I may be missing why LML's chummyness makes him so guilty, because I don't see it.

(happy flay? Interaction between LML and myself, though it may just get me killed if LML happens to be guilty, but we do need to make allocations in our though processes for personal playing styles, like you being upfront and suspicious, and LML being chummy)

[EnterYourNameHere]

Then again, I may be missing why LML's chummyness makes him so guilty, because I don't see it.

My thoughts exactly. I'm not saying "LML is not scum," I'm saying "if LML is scum, it's for reasons other than this." And he very well could be, but at the moment, I don't suspect him.

I don't have time to leave a more detailed reply at the moment (I will later tonight), but I am very suspicious of Kain's asking for a vote count. That, plus his previous post in which he FOSes and almost votes LML, makes me think he's a scum trying to see if he can jump on the LML bandwagon without getting "found out." That, plus his earlier tautologies (dammit Flay! That was the word I was looking for ), makes me want to

Vote: Kain

.

[Kain]

Hmm some very interesting posts have been made today. EYNH I find your post to be extremely scummy. First I did expain as to why I was FOS and not changing my vote. Go read page 1 and 2( especially two). Your reasoning for voting for me is weak. I

FOS

You for what appears to me to be you trying to start a bandwagon based on poor logic and faulty reasoning. Everything you said against me could very easily be argued the totally opposite way that you have thus far argued them.

[big_kahunia]

Sorry, busy w/ real life.

Do you REALLY think I'd make a mistake like THAT? I'd be much more careful if I were scum.

These statements rub me the wrong way. Most of the time, people that use that defense are scum. Since LML is posting late (not sure if it was in that post or not), he is more prone to make mistakes. So, by saying he'd be more careful as scum, I don't really buy it. I'd post the same time as if he was town. Do I think you'd make a mistake like that? Yes. I think you got caught.

unvote: Kain. vote: LML

. This is the 3rd vote btw.

[Tamuz]

Wow Kain... a retaliatory suspicion when one votes you. That FOS on EYNH makes me very suspicious of you, you have no reason to fling accusations back into his face, just because he voted for you. His reason may be weak, but your is even weaker because it is based on his weak reason. Your constructing buildings on someone else's glass mountain.

Oh, and Kain

Unofficial Vote Count, just for you:

Vote Count

2 - Kain (EYNH, Tamuz)
1 - Mr. Flay (LML)
1 - Stam (Kain)
3 - LML (Mr. Flay, Stam, Big_k)

Takes 4 to lynch.

Vote:Kain

[Tamuz]

Wow Kain... a retaliatory suspicion when one votes you. That FOS on EYNH makes me very suspicious of you, you have no reason to fling accusations back into his face, just because he voted for you. His reason may be weak, but your is even weaker because it is based on his weak reason. Your constructing buildings on someone else's glass mountain.

Oh, and Kain

Unofficial Vote Count, just for you:

Vote Count

2 - Kain (EYNH, Tamuz)
1 - Mr. Flay (LML)
1 - Stam (Kain)
3 - LML (Mr. Flay, Stam, Big_k)

Takes 4 to lynch.

Vote:Kain

[Stam]

I still don't know whether LML is a scum, but in both cases Kain's behavior looks scummy. It is possible that they are scums together and Kain is trying to associate himself with the bandwagon on LML without actually joining it. It is also possible that LML is innocent and Kain is trying to get him lynched but hope someone would do the job for him. Kain's behavior was scummy from the beginning. I used to think it was just a newbie attitude, but now I think he really knows what he is doing, and it doesn't look good.
I suspect both LML and Kain, but between the two I think it is Kain who should have three votes on.

unvote: LoudmouthLee
Vote: Kain

Note: this is a third vote on Kain, unless someone unvotes, the next vote will have him lynched

[LoudmouthLee]

Sorry, busy w/ real life.

Do you REALLY think I'd make a mistake like THAT? I'd be much more careful if I were scum.

These statements rub me the wrong way. Most of the time, people that use that defense are scum. Since LML is posting late (not sure if it was in that post or not), he is more prone to make mistakes. So, by saying he'd be more careful as scum, I don't really buy it. I'd post the same time as if he was town. Do I think you'd make a mistake like that? Yes. I think you got caught.

unvote: Kain. vote: LML

. This is the 3rd vote btw.

I offered my reason. I know it's no excuse, but RL has been relatively hectic for me recently. I have only been able to posty late, and made a mistake. Lynch me for it if you want to.

By the way, just so YOU know... I made this same comment in Theme Park - Talk Show Host Mafia. Guess what? I was pro-town there too. Bah. I have some time, so if you don't want to dredge through the posts, I'll do it for you.

[Kain]

Wow Tamuz that was an interesting statement you said in post 70. Let me explain why. Oh and btw I find it so very interesting how you suddenly are jumping on me when earlier you said you were getting bad vibes on Stam.
But let's not get on that tangent- let's get back to the original tangent the one where I show you why EYNH's logic is poor and why mine is acceptable for me to FOS for him. First let's quote you.

Wow Kain... a retaliatory suspicion when one votes you. That FOS on EYNH makes me very suspicious of you, you have no reason to fling accusations back into his face, just because he voted for you. His reason may be weak, but your is even weaker because it is based on his weak reason. …..

Vote Kain

Why should a justifiable FOS arise suspicion on your part? I think I might understand that you cannot fathom reason or logic if you FOS me for it, but by placing a third vote that was really super scummy. I have every reason to FOS someone EYNH who voted for me based on such lousy reasons. Logic dictates that only a newbie or scum votes for someone ( and I'm not speaking about a random vote) with as lousy reasons as he had on me.

POST 66:

Then again, I may be missing why LML's chummyness makes him so guilty, because I don't see it.

*EYNH SAID THE FOLLOWING:*

My thoughts exactly. I'm not saying "LML is not scum," I'm saying "if LML is scum, it's for reasons other than this." And he very well could be, but at the moment, I don't suspect him.

I don't have time to leave a more detailed reply at the moment (I will later tonight), but I am very suspicious of Kain's asking for a vote count. That, plus his previous post in which he FOSes and almost votes LML, makes me think he's a scum trying to see if he can jump on the LML bandwagon without getting "found out." That, plus his earlier tautologies (dammit Flay! That was the word I was looking for ), makes me want to

Vote: Kain

.

ENYH promised to explain more as to why he feels the way he does later that night. He made that post last night around 10pm-11 MST last night May21. Why does he not bring forth the evidence and moreover why does he not do it last night(May 21) like he said he would? Why is there is no evidence….is it because there really isn’t any? As for me asking for a vote count I am very guilty sometimes of not reading everything new that’s been posted so I missed the vote count on page two. I thought I was doing everyone a favor for asking for a vote count on page two. And the lesson learned is don’t ask for vote counts because people will jump on you for that…..weird huh? Well at least Mr. Flay speculated correctly that I had not seen it( the vote count posted by the mod) Anyway I get off the topic. Let me explain why I FOS LML and did not vote him.

In pondering the points( especially the ones that Mr. Flay has brought up) I am now going to

FOS

you LML. I'm not voting for you right now because I want to hear your defense to everything Mr. Flay has brought against you so far.

As you all can see by reading Mr. Flay’s numerous points that he has made against LML that I had every good reason to believe that LML could be scum as Mr. Flay has suggested. However it’s not kosher/proper to vote someone without allowing him/her a chance to defend him/herself. I did the right thing and I felt he did a very good job in defending himself hence I did not vote LML. If I had felt that his reasons that he provided to support himself against Mr. Flay’s accusations were provably weak I would have said so and voted for him. Okay moving on to my next part of this huge explanation.

Now that having all been explained about why I did what I did with LML I find myself justified in saying

Hmm some very interesting posts have been made today. EYNH I find your post to be extremely scummy. First I did expain as to why I was FOS and not changing my vote. Go read page 1 and 2( especially two). Your reasoning for voting for me is weak. I

FOS

You for what appears to me to be you trying to start a bandwagon based on poor logic and faulty reasoning. Everything you said against me could very easily be argued the totally opposite way that you have thus far argued them.

As you all can see it was reasonable to FOS him because he voted for me based on what I did with LML even though my reasoning for FOSing LML was logical. It’s rather stupid to vote for someone who votes for you as a revenge statement(unless you have sufficient logical evidence to support yourself) so I didn’t do that. I didn’t feel that ENYH was definitely scum but I FOSed him with justifiably reasoning. So this brings me back now to your post Tamuz.

Wow Kain... a retaliatory suspicion when one votes you. That FOS on EYNH makes me very suspicious of you, you have no reason to fling accusations back into his face, just because he voted for you. His reason may be weak, but your is even weaker because it is based on his weak reason. Your constructing buildings on someone else's glass mountain.

Oh, and Kain

Unofficial Vote Count, just for you:

Vote Count

2 - Kain (EYNH, Tamuz)
1 - Mr. Flay (LML)
1 - Stam (Kain)
3 - LML (Mr. Flay, Stam, Big_k)

Takes 4 to lynch.

Vote:Kain

So Tamuz do you care to explain now how my FOS on EYNH wasn’t logical and justifiable? Really please do. If you don’t understand my reasoning in this post then I highly suggest rereading what everyone has said….maybe you’ll see where I’m coming from then.

Also how is my reasoning built on his reasoning as you have claimed in your post that I have now quoted or partially quoted twice? I’m just not seeing how my reasoning is built on his. I just said that his points were weak because they could very well be argued the opposite way as they have thus far been argued. I did not vote for him because what he said did not construct in my opinion enough information for me to justifiable vote for him; it did give me grounds to question him and FOS him for it.

So I think I’ve said enough on the topic- So feel free to explain yourself now Tamuz. After all everyone has the right( or should be given it) to explain themselves after they’ve said something. So please do speak up. I really hope that all made sense to everyone.

[big_kahunia]

You guys ever hear of Ockham's Razor? Long posts are necessary at times.

Thanks Tamuz for the votecount. I'll post something more detailed after work tomorrow since it's late over here.